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Post by msimanyi on Jan 11, 2022 16:13:35 GMT -5
Perfect! Thank you ttocs. I'll report back once my MiniDSP shipment arrives and I have a chance to install, connect and configure it. Mike So I've been reading manuals, reading forums and learning the little bits and pieces I'll need to make everything work nicely - including REW and MSO - and I just want to make sure I'm using the right physical connections to bring all this together ttocs. Given that my main speakers are OLD and don't have the modern gain controls for the woofer, I'm considering the following: - Front L/R set as large
- Front L/R from the RMC to the 88A
- Use the 88A as a crossover to roll off bass to the main L/R at perhaps 100 Hz
- Output from 88A to main amps and two front subs (subs connected via line level XLR)
- RMC center and left sub outputs into 88A
- Outputs from 88A to LFE connections on all three subs
I repaneled my speakers but the woofers themselves are original, over 25 years old, and apparently no longer available. If I roll off the bass to them it should help preserve them as long as possible, while sending that signal over to my two BalancedForce 210 subs. I think this can optimize things for two-channel playback, as well as home theater. Does that sound reasonable to you? |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 11, 2022 16:53:31 GMT -5
Perfect! Thank you ttocs. I'll report back once my MiniDSP shipment arrives and I have a chance to install, connect and configure it. Mike So I've been reading manuals, reading forums and learning the little bits and pieces I'll need to make everything work nicely - including REW and MSO - and I just want to make sure I'm using the right physical connections to bring all this together ttocs. Given that my main speakers are OLD and don't have the modern gain controls for the woofer, I'm considering the following: - Front L/R set as large
- Front L/R from the RMC to the 88A
- Use the 88A as a crossover to roll off bass to the main L/R at perhaps 100 Hz
- Output from 88A to main amps and two front subs (subs connected via line level XLR)
- RMC center and left sub outputs into 88A
- Outputs from 88A to LFE connections on all three subs
I repaneled my speakers but the woofers themselves are original, over 25 years old, and apparently no longer available. If I roll off the bass to them it should help preserve them as long as possible, while sending that signal over to my two BalancedForce 210 subs. I think this can optimize things for two-channel playback, as well as home theater. Does that sound reasonable to you? That seems correct for all the paths. See how flexible the routing is with miniDSP? Really nice. What I don't have any experience with, is using the miniDSP for frequencies higher than a few hundred Hz, I just use it for bass stuff. Maybe some others can chime in for how miniDSP works with upper frequencies. Should be fine, but I've just never done it. |
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Post by msimanyi on Jan 11, 2022 19:57:02 GMT -5
I figured I'd experiment, starting with only using it up to perhaps 300Hz. The interesting twist here is the combinations and permutations of ARC, REW at the 88A or even Dirac at the 88A, and Dirac at the RMC. I could probably play with this stuff for a full week and still not know all the ins and outs... Edited to add: thanks for all the tips and sharing info that you've done here and on the other forum! And many thanks to marcl for posting here too, pushing the envelope of our collective knowledge. You two seem to feed off each other.
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Post by ttocs on Jan 11, 2022 20:29:38 GMT -5
I figured I'd experiment, starting with only using it up to perhaps 300Hz. The interesting twist here is the combinations and permutations of ARC, REW at the 88A or even Dirac at the 88A, and Dirac at the RMC. I could probably play with this stuff for a full week and still not know all the ins and outs... One thing leads to another, then another, and so on. It amazed me as to how much comes from just simple experiments. The tough part is documenting the experience along the way, and in a manner that can be deciphered a month from now. "Oh, I'll remember that, right?" Nope. But yes, lots of combos for sure. I always recommend just trying something, even if it fails, because there's so much to learn from each experience. Just watch one of those micromouse competitions. The mouse goes slow, learns where not to go and builds on the known fails, which eventually lead to success by process of elimination. But, there are still many other paths the mouse can take that maybe it hasn't considered yet. Along the way, we, us people, learn what doesn't work, and what does, and even possibly find other nifty ways to slice the bread. Lots of possibilities. I'm still not there with 'ya as yet. Still working on the house after changing a couple things that affect the layout of the great room a little, so, affects the acoustics. Next week is when the new fun begins for re-aligning the subs. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 12, 2022 21:21:11 GMT -5
TTOCS...... I read your OP when you mentioned 'compression'. And some of what I though were fairly high SPL limits. I just wanted to make a few notes about 'compression'....... Copper, which is the near-exclusive matier for voice coils CHANGES reisitance as it heats. At the higher limits imposed by driving a sub hard.....And I'd say that in a 5400 cubic foot room @95+DB IS hard, the driver changes for the WORSE as resistance rises. Power handling drops and distortion RISES. Since you are dealing wiht a 'system' here, the 'weakest link' provision appllies. Whatever section has the lowest limts sets the UPPER limit for the entire system......unless you are willing to tolerate higher distortion and run the risk of cooking a driver. Speakers are really not more than maybe 5% efficient. this means the REST of the power is HEAT. Keep in mind that, JUST FOR EXAMPLE.....a tweeter needs the least amount of power. But still and all it is heating UP.... A tweetermight have a 3/4" voice coil and your woofer might be 2" or better.....But at the limits? they might get to 100c or higher. Check out insulation limits for magnet wire if you are curious...... www.linkedin.com/pulse/power-compression-vs-thermal-distortion-loudspeaker-alexander-wilson |
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Post by ttocs on Jan 12, 2022 21:46:57 GMT -5
TTOCS...... I read your OP when you mentioned 'compression'. And some of what I though were fairly high SPL limits. I just wanted to make a few notes about 'compression'....... Copper, which is the near-exclusive matier for voice coils CHANGES reisitance as it heats. At the higher limits imposed by driving a sub hard.....And I'd say that in a 5400 cubic foot room @95+DB IS hard, the driver changes for the WORSE as resistance rises. Power handling drops and distortion RISES. Since you are dealing wiht a 'system' here, the 'weakest link' provision appllies. Whatever section has the lowest limts sets the UPPER limit for the entire system......unless you are willing to tolerate higher distortion and run the risk of cooking a driver. Speakers are really not more than maybe 5% efficient. this means the REST of the power is HEAT. Keep in mind that, JUST FOR EXAMPLE.....a tweeter needs the least amount of power. But still and all it is heating UP.... A tweetermight have a 3/4" voice coil and your woofer might be 2" or better.....But at the limits? they might get to 100c or higher. Check out insulation limits for magnet wire if you are curious...... www.linkedin.com/pulse/power-compression-vs-thermal-distortion-loudspeaker-alexander-wilsonA bit after my post you reference, and even more detail in a thread about the Emotiva EMM-1 and UMIK-1 mics we use, I found that it was the mic sensitivity that was causing the "compression". The mic just couldn't measure any higher, reliably. The sensitivity of the EMM-1 mic is not adjustable, but the UMIK is. All I did was to change the setting on the UMIK-1 which allowed it to measure much higher SPL. I then ran some measurements up to around 115dB just to test, I was afraid to go higher. All was good. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 13, 2022 0:23:15 GMT -5
I think we crossed a wire. the compression I refer to is electrical and caused by the resistane of copper RISING as a function of temperature.....which adversly effects the speaker driver in several ways.
check out the LINK I provided for further detail...
Don't forget that your ENTIRE system...from wall plug to your ears is probably no more than 4% efficient. the rest is heat. Amp get warm. PRE gets warm Speakers get warm.....
your speakers 'compression' is independet of the mic you use but VERY dependent on the test levels you use which reflect powe used, most of whihc turns to HEAT....
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Post by ttocs on Jan 13, 2022 0:52:14 GMT -5
I think we crossed a wire. the compression I refer to is electrical and caused by the resistane of copper RISING as a function of temperature.....which adversly effects the speaker driver in several ways. check out the LINK I provided for further detail... Don't forget that your ENTIRE system...from wall plug to your ears is probably no more than 4% efficient. the rest is heat. Amp get warm. PRE gets warm Speakers get warm..... your speakers 'compression' is independet of the mic you use but VERY dependent on the test levels you use which reflect powe used, most of whihc turns to HEAT.... I understand your point perfectly. That's not what was happening in my case. The speaker was getting louder, but the mic wasn't hearing it. Each time I changed the sensitivity setting on the mic, the same subwoofers would measure at higher SPL without the "compression" (as I defined it) in the sweeps being as low as shown in what was posted. In that particular case the mic was not able to measure any higher so was out of spec, "compressing" the sweeps erroneously. At the -18dB setting the UMIK-1 was limited to 94dB. Period. Not a bit higher. So even though a handheld SPL meter was measuring higher and higher SPL, the mic wasn't. This is why I looked for info on what I was experiencing, but didn't find any. So I analyzed how-to videos and discerned that the microphones being used in the videos with REW were using a different sensitivity setting which allowed higher SPL than what I could do, and the sensitivity can be seen when the video producer is showing how to setup REW and when the screen showed the mic info, I noticed that it didn't match mine. So I looked up why one would be -12dB and mine was -18dB, and found that the UMIK-1 can be set for a variety of sensitivities covering a large range of High or Low SPL measurements, all limited to a "range". Go outside of that range, and the measurements are no longer valid. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 13, 2022 15:43:13 GMT -5
AHH! Well explained!
A couple questions would still occur? But I'll save all that since you seem to have reached a successful conclusion...
Don't all those (or all the sub-500$) mics use the SAME cartridge?
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Post by ttocs on Jan 13, 2022 16:26:32 GMT -5
AHH! Well explained! A couple questions would still occur? But I'll save all that since you seem to have reached a successful conclusion... Don't all those (or all the sub-500$) mics use the SAME cartridge? As Jeff Spicoli famously said, and Mr. Hand famously ridiculed in the movie Fast Times At Ridgemont High, "I don't know". |
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Post by p4t on Jan 30, 2022 23:51:37 GMT -5
I have a questions. Maybe a silly questions. If I have 2 SVS SB3000 and 2 JL E112, is there a general rule of thumb about how to corner placing these subs! For example both sb3000 on front corner and both JL on rear corner, or cris cros, SB3000s on front right corner and left rear corner, E112 on front left corner and right rear corner. Also if I replaced Both E112 to 2 SB3000, does all 4 SB3000 overall make a better sound as they are the same subs now? Thank you.
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Post by leonski on Jan 31, 2022 17:33:44 GMT -5
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Post by p4t on Feb 15, 2022 9:34:30 GMT -5
Ok, thanks. I will read it. |
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Post by ttocs on Feb 15, 2022 10:25:10 GMT -5
I have a questions. Maybe a silly questions. If I have 2 SVS SB3000 and 2 JL E112, is there a general rule of thumb about how to corner placing these subs! For example both sb3000 on front corner and both JL on rear corner, or cris cros, SB3000s on front right corner and left rear corner, E112 on front left corner and right rear corner. Also if I replaced Both E112 to 2 SB3000, does all 4 SB3000 overall make a better sound as they are the same subs now? Thank you. Sorry I missed this when originally posted. I would avoid a "criss cross" approach, it might be interesting to experiment with, but I wouldn't expect miracles and it might even sound a bit "off" or uneven. If it's possible, try mid-wall placement. When given the opportunity to try both, mid-wall vs corner can make for better overall results. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 15, 2022 15:30:18 GMT -5
ttocs......
If you have multiple subs....Let's say I purchased 4 of the STF from HSU. This was the entry level sub and QUITE inexpensive. And of a size to be very flexible in location / placement.
Would I want a SYMETRICAL or ASYMETRICAL setup? Four located Midwall? Four in Corners? 2 stacked in each of 2 corners or midwall?
OR
2 Midwall....and 2 in OPPOSITE corners? Or even 2 of 'em.....located 1/3 along a wall, on opposite sides than 2 others either 1 in a corner and 1 somewher else?
I'd GUESS that if the crossover used were LOW enough, specific subs in specific corners wouldn't matter much if at all.....Problems arise when you start getting into overtones....
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Post by ttocs on Feb 15, 2022 19:54:20 GMT -5
ttocs...... If you have multiple subs....Let's say I purchased 4 of the STF from HSU. This was the entry level sub and QUITE inexpensive. And of a size to be very flexible in location / placement. Would I want a SYMETRICAL or ASYMETRICAL setup? Four located Midwall? Four in Corners? 2 stacked in each of 2 corners or midwall? OR 2 Midwall....and 2 in OPPOSITE corners? Or even 2 of 'em.....located 1/3 along a wall, on opposite sides than 2 others either 1 in a corner and 1 somewher else? I'd GUESS that if the crossover used were LOW enough, specific subs in specific corners wouldn't matter much if at all.....Problems arise when you start getting into overtones.... Depends on the room. Floyd Toole recommends the following layouts for a rectangular room. These offer the best chance of improvement in a rectangular room. (From www.harman.com/documents/AudioScience_0.pdf )  Things also depend on what the user wants. In my case I have a specific "want". I want to help the woofers in my L&R speakers with extra woofers, so I located extra woofers adjacent to the speakers such that they become one unit. I knew going in that this was not going to help with smoothing the bass response across multiple seats, no, that's not what this is for. It started out as an experiment, and turned out to be total enjoyment. It required a lot of interest in tinkering which requires a lot of patience for enduring the fails along the way. I considered the entire project to be a learning opportunity. What I ended up with is surprisingly simple. Three locations for subwoofers, with two pair of stacked subs for the Front Speakers. Front Left (middle of Front Wall), Front Right (in corner where Front Wall and Side Wall with all windows meet), kinda near the middle of the Rear Wall next to a large "cabinet" (a refrigerator with heavy, thick, cabinetry surrounding it). The Left "speaker" (Large speaker with dual 10" woofers, and two 12" subwoofers), works ok by itself, but needs a lot of help from the 10" subwoofer at the rear of the room which helps immensely. Same for the Right "speaker". Also, when both L&R are playing the same mono signal, that rear subwoofer helps even out the response for this as well. This week I'm in the process or re-aligning all the subwoofers after my system had been partially dismantled to allow for some construction in the house. As a result, I moved the system where I "want" it to be, so center of system is now about 7" to the right of where it was. I'm also making some new bass traps which will be placed in the same arrangement as before (I did a lot of trials last year, so I know what will work). I may rescind my decision for having moved the system's center over a bit, while leaving the Left Front speaker where it was, but it's a better layout for Movie Night! that allows for a wider speaker arrangement (I'm nice to my guests). The bottom line for the five subwoofer arrangement in addition to the Fronts, major increase in dynamics! If you want to hear how the heartbeat at the beginning of Dark Side Of The Moon should sound, go to a Pink Floyd concert. If you want to hear a close second, come to my house. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 15, 2022 20:24:09 GMT -5
The DSOM heartbeat in my house is a pulse which rattles stuff......so I have no complaints. The heartbeat in SEABISCUIT (horse racing movie) is also simply amazing........
Glad you went to what sounds like a LOT of work. I would only add to TAKE CAREFUL NOTES so you can reconstruct your reasoning or explain to anyone needing (and willing) to follow your lead.
I've never had the number of subs to experiment with 'stacking'. I've heard plusses and Minuses with this arrangement, but no direct playtime myself.
Don't forget that below 80hz is typically mixed to MONO, anyway......My noted expansion of image (just a 2.1 system) can be attributed mainly to overtones.......Since I cross over VERY low.....
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Post by ttocs on Feb 15, 2022 21:08:53 GMT -5
I would only add to TAKE CAREFUL NOTES so you can reconstruct your reasoning or explain to anyone needing (and willing) to follow your lead. That's partly what this thread is for. I've never had the number of subs to experiment with 'stacking'. I've heard plusses and Minuses with this arrangement, but no direct playtime myself. There's plus/minus to everything with audio. We choose where we want to compromise. Don't forget that below 80hz is typically mixed to MONO, anyway......My noted expansion of image (just a 2.1 system) can be attributed mainly to overtones.......Since I cross over VERY low..... This is the interesting part with my Front Speakers, there is no crossover setting cutting off frequencies from the woofers. They play all the way down to their designed minimum (and a little further down with in-room response). There is a built-in shelf filter, +-10dB Bass Control, which I employ by setting it to -10dB so the speaker's woofers are loafing by playing bass below 150Hz at a lower level. Then, the subwoofers take over at different stages, for example, the Left Speaker's subwoofers are currently set for 110Hz (bottom sub) and 45Hz (top sub). If you look at the second post in this thread you'll find the data sheet from ML for how the contour is applied for this Bass Control. In this way there are now five woofers playing the bass for the Front Left speaker, two in the speaker itself, two subs adjacent to the speaker, and the sub at the rear of the room. None of these woofers are straining. Once they were each tweaked multiple times, back and forth, then repeat, so the bass response was as good as I could get it to be, I then just turned down the level of each sub 1dB at a time, remeasuring each time, until I got the response curve to be what I wanted. It's not more bass, just better bass that's ready to more instantly respond when needed. |
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Post by leonski on Feb 15, 2022 22:11:20 GMT -5
My point is that while YOU have had an interesting time of it, your experience is not Universal. Most people don't have your time or resources.
That's why I tell people to take careful notes. Some stuff just takes time to 'click' and when doing major setups? Repeating may not be the best use of time.
When I did my panel speaker setup? I tried ALL FOUR possibilities and kept track. Some setups lasted SECONDS while other went longer. The kind of setup YOU went thru is more
experimental than definitive....
I am not certain what you mean about your last point....about crossover settings. It sounds like you let your main speakers play full-range and allow the bass to roll off as it will......This is OK, I guess.
In my setup? I low-cut my main speakers which in NO case are good below maybe 36hz, somewhat higher. And cross the SUB over at maybe 45hz.....So the OVERLAP between main / sub is minimal.
Matching subs and panels can be a PIA, and this did away with mid / low bass muddiness....while being VERY musical....Again, after test and even swapping the sub from LEFT to RIGHT side.
I get it about compromise. You do the best you can with available resources. I can't, for example, apply room treatments to my current space. I'm sure I could impromve things thru that route, but it
is not to be. Or even buy a pair of MG 3.6 or 3.5 with the ribbon.....That sort of thing.....
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Post by ttocs on Feb 15, 2022 22:33:12 GMT -5
I am not certain what you mean about your last point....about crossover settings. It sounds like you let your main speakers play full-range and allow the bass to roll off as it will......This is OK, I guess. It's a shelf filter. The speakers play full range, yes, but they play the bass region below 150Hz at -10dB. There is a knob for Bass Control to reduce the level of bass output from the self powered woofers below 150Hz, so the woofer amps are only working at 100% above 150Hz and up to 300Hz.. This relieves the woofer amps from a lot of work in the low frequency range which is where the subwoofers take over. |
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