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Post by 405x5 on Apr 5, 2024 9:49:28 GMT -5
... I put the empty box in the basement and that was the end of that. that was 23 years ago. Clearly, there is something wrong with me... What? You still have the box after 23 years?  …. and the 4.7 we had within the hour here in the New York New Jersey area failed to knock the thing over lol  |
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Post by PaulBe on Apr 5, 2024 10:22:57 GMT -5
What? You still have the box after 23 years? …. and the 4.7 we had within the hour here in the New York New Jersey area failed to knock the thing over lol View AttachmentYou just had a small earthquake? Oh my. I hope all are OK. Back to 'Finding Subwoofer' - It's important to remember HT is just a hobby. Enjoyable music and movies don't require a subwoofer, a dedicated room, or even a multi-channel system. If it all was destroyed in an earthquake, the only thing that matters is my family and my neighbor's families. Your funny post about sticking your sub in the corner, 'and that was the end of it', adds some needed perspective to the subject. Subwoofer can be found in a variety of solutions. Edit - Just read that the earthquake was also felt and heard in PA. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 5, 2024 11:07:36 GMT -5
I did the same thing. Stuck MY sub in a corner. But? It turned my DEN into a boombox. And out in the listening area, I thought I could make an improvement.
Moved sub to the OTHER side behind the speakers.....FIXED and not moved in 6 or 8 years.
And yes, I still have the box.....
One other item?
If you are given an all-new room, just HOW do you decide where stuff goes. Certainly not 'just where it fits'. Juggling what are dozens of variables is a daunting task.
Can you solve a 3-body problem in your head?
What's up with NY? That was a Los Angeles style rumbler.....Hope everyone is safe and back to a normal heartrate.....
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Post by marcl on Apr 5, 2024 11:14:05 GMT -5
I did the same thing. Stuck MY sub in a corner. But? It turned my DEN into a boombox. And out in the listening area, I thought I could make an improvement. Moved sub to the OTHER side behind the speakers.....FIXED and not moved in 6 or 8 years. And yes, I still have the box..... One other item? If you are given an all-new room, just HOW do you decide where stuff goes. Certainly not 'just where it fits'. Juggling what are dozens of variables is a daunting task. Can you solve a 3-body problem in your head? What's up with NY? That was a Los Angeles style rumbler.....Hope everyone is safe and back to a normal heartrate..... I’m south of Philadelphia today and felt a couple bumps. Friends north of here felt windows rattle. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 5, 2024 13:06:27 GMT -5
That's what happens when Mother Nature forgets to take her Earth Control Pill......
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 5, 2024 14:14:22 GMT -5
…. and the 4.7 we had within the hour here in the New York New Jersey area failed to knock the thing over lol View AttachmentYou just had a small earthquake? Oh my. I hope all are OK. Back to 'Finding Subwoofer' - It's important to remember HT is just a hobby. Enjoyable music and movies don't require a subwoofer, a dedicated room, or even a multi-channel system. If it all was destroyed in an earthquake, the only thing that matters is my family and my neighbor's families. Your funny post about sticking your sub in the corner, 'and that was the end of it', adds some needed perspective to the subject. Subwoofer can be found in a variety of solutions. Edit - Just read that the earthquake was also felt and heard in PA. Only the second time in my life that I was aware of an earthquake…… First one here in New York was around 40 years ago…..,lived in a different house, but only a stones throw away from where I am now. early in the morning my cat went ballistic. within a few minutes The bed was shaking doing a reboot of the exorcist.
Fast forward to this one…… In both instances, I was just one of those people who happen to be in an incredibly quiet environment in both instances. so this last one I didn’t feel anything, but my windows were rattling off the hook I have those Anderson windows that have a fake plastic that makes one large piece of glass look like little individual window panes and those things are great for making noise.
I now have a pug instead of a cat. My pug did not react at all to this, but he did look up and say , I don’t give a sh** if it’s a 9.0 as long as I don’t miss dinner
yes, about the subwoofer I needed to throw it a bit of levity… What actually happened was all my measuring and research for the best physical fit and compatibility to my main systems had all been done, so really there was nothing left except to pull it from the box and put it in its planned space.
It is a singular subwoofer, but beyond that my mains have 4 10 inch woofers (two in each tower) and they are arranged in a push pull configuration . The whole deal provides incredibly smooth and deep base.
My sub is not truly in a corner at all with respect to the volume of airspace all around it, which is shared by the adjacent room, so really the subwoofer rests in the middle of everything and it is indeed an ideal location, so yeah, I found my subwoofer a very, very long time ago. in the middle of all that I needed to find it all over again because the amplifier plate, Blew I but was able to obtain a new one from Velodyne just shortly before the original West Coast version of the company went belly up. They are back in business overseas from my understand, but there’s been no support from my particular model for a very, very long time. |
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Post by leonski on Apr 5, 2024 14:33:19 GMT -5
I can't remember how many quakes I've been thru......Even in my town, but that was 4 or 5 months before I moved here!
Whittier? Northridge? and several more of note.
Cats would wake up long enough to crack an eye than return to 'normal'.....
Best news? the continuing use of a nuclear power reactor build basically ON a fault......Can't wait to see how that turns out.
Diablo Canyon is 2000 feet from nearest (of many) faults nearby. PG&E has renewed license request.......
Plant was designed for up to a 6.75, which is well below the maximum anticipated quake for the area.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Apr 5, 2024 16:41:58 GMT -5
Why does this remind me of the old routine with broadcast television... The one where your favorite station only comes in clear if you're actually touching the rabbit ears on the TV...  I was with several friends at anothers house and we experimented with using US as bass modifiers. Go stand in the corner.....get 2 or 3 others to do the same and the bass in the room changes.....audibly..... If it was a little 'bloated' it may now be tolerable. Good experiment pointing the way to (or not) corner traps....... |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 8, 2024 9:11:16 GMT -5
After having a 6 sub horizontal array for a few months I finally got around to testing a setup with two stacks of 4 subs each, three 12" and one 10", and absolutely loved it! I then went back to the horizontal 6 sub array, but added the two 10" subs on top of the two end 12" subs and this improved the attack of the array noticeably, making it more similar to the dual stacks. I added the two 10" subs to the array at marcl's suggestion when he noted that one aspect of the dual 4stacks that I liked is the better Impulse Response which is likely due to the added smaller subs having a quicker attack. Well, he was correct! The rise time is quicker with the smaller subs added to the array, and this has an audible positive effect without any apparent downside. So I went back and forth with these two setups which are both the best I've ever had. I kept wanting to like the horizontal array better because I had it in my mind that it should be better with seat to seat response, even though the array's low end response rolls off quicker than the stacks and I have a difficult time trying to improve this. Measurements show that the seat to seat variation is extremely similar between these two setups so it's not a consideration. But the stacks are more imposing, so I like the look of the array better. The next thing is that the dual stacks presented a noticeably nicer soundstage! It's more pleasant to listen to when playing music, more natural sounding. This is something I can't measure, but the experience is wonderful! I'm pretty sure it's due to the stacks being taller than where my ears are while sitting. With the array I can feel the bass coming from the floor, but with the stacks I feel and hear the bass from the entire front wall and this makes the soundstage even more cohesive. I fully expected the array to be the best at everything, but it isn't. And finally, all things being equal, the stacks have greater overall output - and - better low end extension. The array always posed a challenge in my room for frequencies below 25-27Hz, but I was able to get better results after some trials. I'll post more info and images later of the winning setup, but for now here are some in-progress images showing the two setups during testing.   |
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2024 6:55:54 GMT -5
thezone I'm tagging you here to bring your Marantz purchase into an appropriate thread for my questions as they will relate to subwoofers. Also, because I'm considering trying a Marantz, though it's an uphill battle for me to like it after my last experience with a top Marantz which, granted, was years ago. Which Marantz did you get? Are you using DLBC? Are all the subwoofer outputs tied together so REW and Dirac sees them as a single subwoofer? . . . or are they all individual outputs so they are seen as multiple subwoofers? One key issue for me with any Marantz is having a limit of 4 subwoofer outputs when I need 8 outputs. But, it may still be worth a try if only to find out how it operates.
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2024 19:12:44 GMT -5
thezone I'm tagging you here to bring your Marantz purchase into an appropriate thread for my questions as they will relate to subwoofers. Also, because I'm considering trying a Marantz, though it's an uphill battle for me to like it after my last experience with a top Marantz which, granted, was years ago. Which Marantz did you get? Are you using DLBC? Are all the subwoofer outputs tied together so REW and Dirac sees them as a single subwoofer? . . . or are they all individual outputs so they are seen as multiple subwoofers? One key issue for me with any Marantz is having a limit of 4 subwoofer outputs when I need 8 outputs. But, it may still be worth a try if only to find out how it operates. I found some answers. When using Dirac Live, Dirac will see each subwoofer output as unique, which is great. When using REW and measuring LFE, it will see all the subs as one. Some processors actually tie all the subwoofer outputs together, so this is why the question of uniqueness came up. The big problem is only having 4 subwoofer outputs. This would mean using Y cables to connect pairs of subwoofers, partially defeating a reason to get a different processor. I want each sub to be measured as a unique output channel so I don't need to do anything extra like what I've already done in aligning the 8 subwoofers, plus, I want DLBC to help with the crossovers to each speaker. Still worth a try? Not yet. I need more convincing. The more I think about the lack of as many subwoofer outputs as I want, the more it looks like a brick wall in the path. This is a big deal bummer. It's not a clear winning solution. All I can think about right now is the return policy, which for a Marantz is probably 30 days depending on where I buy it, and Dirac Full + DLBC which Flavio told me is 30 days with a Support Ticket routine. But then again this is how I entered the realm of Emotiva. I returned a Marantz and bought a UMC-200 thinking I'd probably return it also, but ended up loving it. The Denon/Marantz GUI is really nice, mostly. Some things are odd, but I guess that's to be expected as being a different flavor of something. |
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Post by marcl on Sept 12, 2024 20:36:39 GMT -5
thezone I'm tagging you here to bring your Marantz purchase into an appropriate thread for my questions as they will relate to subwoofers. Also, because I'm considering trying a Marantz, though it's an uphill battle for me to like it after my last experience with a top Marantz which, granted, was years ago. Which Marantz did you get? Are you using DLBC? Are all the subwoofer outputs tied together so REW and Dirac sees them as a single subwoofer? . . . or are they all individual outputs so they are seen as multiple subwoofers? One key issue for me with any Marantz is having a limit of 4 subwoofer outputs when I need 8 outputs. But, it may still be worth a try if only to find out how it operates. I found some answers. When using Dirac Live, Dirac will see each subwoofer output as unique, which is great. When using REW and measuring LFE, it will see all the subs as one. Some processors actually tie all the subwoofer outputs together, so this is why the question of uniqueness came up. The big problem is only having 4 subwoofer outputs. This would mean using Y cables to connect pairs of subwoofers, partially defeating a reason to get a different processor. I want each sub to be measured as a unique output channel so I don't need to do anything extra like what I've already done in aligning the 8 subwoofers, plus, I want DLBC to help with the crossovers to each speaker. Still worth a try? Not yet. I need more convincing. The more I think about the lack of as many subwoofer outputs as I want, the more it looks like a brick wall in the path. This is a big deal bummer. It's not a clear winning solution. All I can think about right now is the return policy, which for a Marantz is probably 30 days depending on where I buy it, and Dirac Full + DLBC which Flavio told me is 30 days with a Support Ticket routine. But then again this is how I entered the realm of Emotiva. I returned a Marantz and bought a UMC-200 thinking I'd probably return it also, but ended up loving it. The Denon/Marantz GUI is really nice, mostly. Some things are odd, but I guess that's to be expected as being a different flavor of something. Dude you want 8 separate sub outputs .... Trinnov ... done ... only game in town ... |
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2024 20:45:04 GMT -5
Dude you want 8 separate sub outputs .... Trinnov ... done ... only game in town ... yeeeeeeaaaahhhhhh, Trinnov is a brand I was super supportive of until I found out they really target HT with their processors. They aren't interested in their processors being used for 2 channel. But I still use that brand for examples of one thing or another being that they're a top tier brand. Something else that someone reminded me about is the number of taps used in a Marantz. Does anyone here know? Storm seems to have the most. So the Marantz idea is a tough sell. But I'd still like to at least try DLBC on something, so there's that, but like you and I say, not enough subwoofer outputs to satisfy the need. edit: You know, a couple years ago I had thoughts of buying a Trinnov 16. I thought at the time that in a couple years I could lay out what one would cost in that amount of time. But then the cost rose exponentially and added way more than I figured, so, no Trinnov for me. |
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Post by ttocs on Sept 13, 2024 17:43:02 GMT -5
Dude you want 8 separate sub outputs. Yes I do. I just can't get myself to justly considering less without it being such a big compromise. Only Storm and Trinnov have the capability for expansion beyond 4 base subwoofer outputs, and Emotiva if the expansion modules for subwoofers get released. So for me, Emotiva is the only one I could get below $22K that has a possibility of providing for 8 subwoofers, assuming that the expansion modules will work the way I hope they can. Put another way, if Emotiva can release the RMC-1+ with subwoofer/speaker modules and it can actually control 12 additional channels for a total of 28 channels, this is absolutely humungous! I'd be happy with two modules for a total of 24 channels, of which I'd only need 19 for a 7.8.4 setup. (But I still want to find out how DLBC works, sooner than later, . . . . . . . . . ) My expectation on DLBC is not just for the crossover help, which is huge, but also the strong possibility that the subs can be aligned more automatically and better than what I've been able to accomplish manually. This last part might just be splitting hairs, but there's a possibility of being just plain better. |
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Post by thezone on Sept 13, 2024 18:20:21 GMT -5
thezone I'm tagging you here to bring your Marantz purchase into an appropriate thread for my questions as they will relate to subwoofers. Also, because I'm considering trying a Marantz, though it's an uphill battle for me to like it after my last experience with a top Marantz which, granted, was years ago. Which Marantz did you get? Are you using DLBC? Are all the subwoofer outputs tied together so REW and Dirac sees them as a single subwoofer? . . . or are they all individual outputs so they are seen as multiple subwoofers? One key issue for me with any Marantz is having a limit of 4 subwoofer outputs when I need 8 outputs. But, it may still be worth a try if only to find out how it operates. Hey ttocs, I got the Cinema 30. I haven't used Dirac at all. I don't believe it's worth the money. I am only using 2 subs. I use the front speakers in full range and the 2 subs at the back of the room, the one on the right gets LFE + all the redirected bass from any speaker on the right marked small, the one of the left gets LFE + all the redirected bass from any speaker on the left marked small. This set up is the best balance of sound I have experienced so far, well exceeding anything I got with the XMC-2. Can't imagine why you would need 8 subs. No good can come of this. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Sept 13, 2024 18:56:44 GMT -5
thezone I'm tagging you here to bring your Marantz purchase into an appropriate thread for my questions as they will relate to subwoofers. Also, because I'm considering trying a Marantz, though it's an uphill battle for me to like it after my last experience with a top Marantz which, granted, was years ago. Which Marantz did you get? Are you using DLBC? Are all the subwoofer outputs tied together so REW and Dirac sees them as a single subwoofer? . . . or are they all individual outputs so they are seen as multiple subwoofers? One key issue for me with any Marantz is having a limit of 4 subwoofer outputs when I need 8 outputs. But, it may still be worth a try if only to find out how it operates. Hey ttocs, I got the Cinema 30. I haven't used Dirac at all. I don't believe it's worth the money. I am only using 2 subs. I use the front speakers in full range and the 2 subs at the back of the room, the one on the right gets LFE + all the redirected bass from any speaker on the right marked small, the one of the left gets LFE + all the redirected bass from any speaker on the left marked small. This set up is the best balance of sound I have experienced so far, well exceeding anything I got with the XMC-2. Can't imagine why you would need 8 subs. No good can come of this. Cool, thanks! I've been reading the manuals for the Marantz models, so you've got the subs setup using Directional, which is an interesting take on multi-sub setup. Must be nice to have the bass be more directional along with the speakers a particular subwoofer serves. For those who may not know, Directional allows for setting up the four subwoofer outputs based on location of each subwoofer. If using all four outputs, then they can be setup and located in Front, Left, Right, and Rear of the room, and each subwoofer location services the speakers in its area. What I'm not clear on is if all four subs have any interaction with each other for smoothing the frequency response in some way. This would mean that one sub dominates but others can help at a lower level (my assumption, I haven't been able to find info on this yet). Are you using Audyssey? The Cinema 30 is physically huge compared to the 40 and 50 models, has more channels, and the highest power amplifier channels. Other than those differences, are there some others that would be good to know about? I'm using two stacks of 4 subs each on the front wall flanking the tv panel (see photo from July post). I've done many, many tests over the last few years with many different subwoofer setups. This one is the best so far, and there were two other setups that came close, but this one exceeds the others in several ways, but simply based on the overall height of the stacks being higher than ear level makes the front soundstage for music incredible, this was an unexpected delight. Also, with more subs, each sub is working less so response is quicker with less effort from each sub making impactful sounds much more impactful. This is borne out by looking at the impulse response. |
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Post by foggy1956 on Sept 13, 2024 18:58:58 GMT -5
Dude you want 8 separate sub outputs. Yes I do. I just can't get myself to justly consider less without it being such a big compromise. Only Storm and Trinnov have the capability for expansion beyond 4 base subwoofer outputs, and Emotiva if the expansion modules for subwoofers get released. So for me, Emotiva is the only one I could get below $22K that has a possibility of providing for 8 subwoofers, assuming that the expansion modules will work the way I hope they can. Put another way, if Emotiva can release the RMC-1+ with subwoofer/speaker modules and it can actually control 12 additional channels for a total of 28 channels, this is absolutely humungous! I'd be happy with two modules for a total of 24 channels, of which I'd only need 19 for a 7.8.4 setup. (But I still want to find out how DLBC works, sooner than later, . . . . . . . . . ) My expectation on DLBC is not just for the crossover help, which is huge, but also the strong possibility that the subs can be aligned more automatically and better than what I've been able to accomplish manually. This last part might just be splitting hairs, but there's a possibility of being just plain better. DLBC will be later if at all. |
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Post by marcl on Oct 16, 2024 5:05:10 GMT -5
Is a room ever "too small" for multiple subs? I think ... quite the contrary.
Past two days I was helping my friend Mike integrate my old 12" Outlaw sub with his existing two subs which he was using separately in 2 channel (Outlaw 8") and 5.1 (SVS 12") systems in the same room. It's a little 11.5x16x7.5 room with no treatment and no room for bass traps. I suggested that there was no reason to run separate subs for the two systems, and since he wanted to use my old Outlaw 12" in the system, the best way to do it was driving all three through a miniDSP. Use all three subs to optimize bass in the room, and just feed the sub output from each separate system into the two miniDSP inputs. Then PEQ the three subs playing together at the inputs (same filters for each channel).
First step was to integrate the three subs with time and level alignment. I used the REW Room Simulator to get an idea of best placement, given the restrictions in this small room. After some confusion trying to get good impulse responses with REW, we could see that one sub needed a 3.5ms delay and two of the subs needed their polarity flipped. This got us pretty close, and the REW EQ function made the five filters to pull the response down flat from 16 to 120Hz. BTW, when aligning subs to each other or to larger speakers I find it best to measure over a narrow range like 30-100Hz. This is due to how REW calculates impulse response.
So the room has a big cancellation at 66Hz, and peaks as high as 8db. Using three subs we were able to cancel a lot of the resonances and use the 5 bands of PEQ in the miniDSP to pull the subs flat. But when he ran his 2-channel bookshelves full range the 66Hz cancelation came back. So we crossed the 2-channel system at 80 using the fixed 80Hz high and low pass in the stereo preamp and the cancelation went away. The 5.1 system has relatively small speakers that needed to be crossed at 120Hz.
The goal was not to get chest slam from three subs in this little room. It was to get uniform, wide range bass integrated well for both systems. Success!
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Post by fbczar on Oct 16, 2024 14:03:04 GMT -5
Is a room ever "too small" for multiple subs? I think ... quite the contrary. Past two days I was helping my friend Mike integrate my old 12" Outlaw sub with his existing two subs which he was using separately in 2 channel (Outlaw 8") and 5.1 (SVS 12") systems in the same room. It's a little 11.5x16x7.5 room with no treatment and no room for bass traps. I suggested that there was no reason to run separate subs for the two systems, and since he wanted to use my old Outlaw 12" in the system, the best way to do it was driving all three through a miniDSP. Use all three subs to optimize bass in the room, and just feed the sub output from each separate system into the two miniDSP inputs. Then PEQ the three subs playing together at the inputs (same filters for each channel). First step was to integrate the three subs with time and level alignment. I used the REW Room Simulator to get an idea of best placement, given the restrictions in this small room. After some confusion trying to get good impulse responses with REW, we could see that one sub needed a 3.5ms delay and two of the subs needed their polarity flipped. This got us pretty close, and the REW EQ function made the five filters to pull the response down flat from 16 to 120Hz. BTW, when aligning subs to each other or to larger speakers I find it best to measure over a narrow range like 30-100Hz. This is due to how REW calculates impulse response. So the room has a big cancellation at 66Hz, and peaks as high as 8db. Using three subs we were able to cancel a lot of the resonances and use the 5 bands of PEQ in the miniDSP to pull the subs flat. But when he ran his 2-channel bookshelves full range the 66Hz cancelation came back. So we crossed the 2-channel system at 80 using the fixed 80Hz high and low pass in the stereo preamp and the cancelation went away. The 5.1 system has relatively small speakers that needed to be crossed at 120Hz. The goal was not to get chest slam from three subs in this little room. It was to get uniform, wide range bass integrated well for both systems. Success! Did you apply any boost to the subwoofers or were they level balanced to the rest of the speakers in the system? |
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Post by marcl on Oct 16, 2024 14:44:40 GMT -5
Is a room ever "too small" for multiple subs? I think ... quite the contrary. Past two days I was helping my friend Mike integrate my old 12" Outlaw sub with his existing two subs which he was using separately in 2 channel (Outlaw 8") and 5.1 (SVS 12") systems in the same room. It's a little 11.5x16x7.5 room with no treatment and no room for bass traps. I suggested that there was no reason to run separate subs for the two systems, and since he wanted to use my old Outlaw 12" in the system, the best way to do it was driving all three through a miniDSP. Use all three subs to optimize bass in the room, and just feed the sub output from each separate system into the two miniDSP inputs. Then PEQ the three subs playing together at the inputs (same filters for each channel). First step was to integrate the three subs with time and level alignment. I used the REW Room Simulator to get an idea of best placement, given the restrictions in this small room. After some confusion trying to get good impulse responses with REW, we could see that one sub needed a 3.5ms delay and two of the subs needed their polarity flipped. This got us pretty close, and the REW EQ function made the five filters to pull the response down flat from 16 to 120Hz. BTW, when aligning subs to each other or to larger speakers I find it best to measure over a narrow range like 30-100Hz. This is due to how REW calculates impulse response. So the room has a big cancellation at 66Hz, and peaks as high as 8db. Using three subs we were able to cancel a lot of the resonances and use the 5 bands of PEQ in the miniDSP to pull the subs flat. But when he ran his 2-channel bookshelves full range the 66Hz cancelation came back. So we crossed the 2-channel system at 80 using the fixed 80Hz high and low pass in the stereo preamp and the cancelation went away. The 5.1 system has relatively small speakers that needed to be crossed at 120Hz. The goal was not to get chest slam from three subs in this little room. It was to get uniform, wide range bass integrated well for both systems. Success! Did you apply any boost to the subwoofers or were they level balanced to the rest of the speakers in the system? We kept them flat. I always like to listen a long time with flat response before deciding to lift the low end at all. But … Mike tends to listen at much lower levels than I do. So before I left, I dinked the sub level of the 5.1 system up 2db. In that system the subs play LFE, and bass for all speakers below 120Hz. I didn’t tell Mike. 😁 A couple hours after I left he emailed that it all sounds good but watching TV he feels like the bass is a bit too loud and is masking the dialogue. I told him to dink it down 2db. After he tells me if that worked … I’ll fess up 😂 |
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