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Post by megash0n on Nov 4, 2020 22:49:11 GMT -5
I think we have people in two categories here. Mark, for the record. I respect your viewpoint here whether I think it is as "an apologist" or not. You make reasonable points. In concept, I agree with you. I think the bigger issue here isn't that they realize this was a mistake... But how they are handling it. Which, follows a trend that some have been pointing out for a while now. As I have sat tonight watching a JFK conspiracy documentary with my son... It's all about optics. The truth is often hidden from plain sight. The company has asserted through documented medium that these cards where good indefinitely. I think it is crystal clear why they have changed position, but that is another topic altogether. It was a mistake, but it's one you learn from and move forward with. The real issue is that the source of this comes from a single podcast which isn't very PR friendly. But, we can see from constant trends that PR isn't exactly top of mind. Net new revenue and minimizing liability is the top trend. Take today's Podcast as a perfect example. In closing, I'm agreeing with you for the most part, but there's a larger issue at hand that has a longer term effect that craves attention. Your position on how you view Emotiva is very well documented. And, frankly - you are a perfect example of what I am saying...you are never happy no matter what they do/don't communicate. That's well known. As I stated - I have been very grateful for what they gave me...totally outright gave me...for the UMC's issues (or which I had NONE) and then to add on to that UFL + the G3 trade-in offer. Anyone who had a 40% off card and used it COULD have been enjoying that. But...they just sat on it. By the way, I have some old unexpired Burger Chef coupons I'll sell you for a great deal. (Nothing lasts forever...caveat emptor...) Mark I respect your perspective of how I view the company's leadership. All in all, I just want them to set proper expectations and deliver on those. If they miss, then put forth more effort to mitigate those issues through public relation mechanics. It really isn't much to ask nor is it a reasonable expectation of a small company to provide. I'm not the one giving examples of poor leadership. I'm simply pointing it out. I'm only looking for a reason to support and evangelize their products. Recently, I have been doing the opposite due to the statements I made above. Regardless, I do want to be supportive. I'm still searching for that reason. In a time of social media, one should pay more attention to PR. Do you ever ask yourself why they have to continue giving all these things away? If they brought products to the market that were stable and successful, they would sell at retail price with constant backorders. Neither one of us is wrong here. We simply look at it from different angles. Your opinions and support are just as valid as mine and I respect your ability to keep the conversation civil while disagreeing. Thank you for that.
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Post by visiter555 on Nov 4, 2020 22:51:24 GMT -5
Some states and some Provinces in Canada have consume protection laws regarding these situations. I would like to see that against a company based in China 😂 Check and see how much cash and assets the US has frozen belonging to foreign countries. Especially China. You would be amazed.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 4, 2020 22:53:52 GMT -5
I would like to spend my card on a fully functional product, And not be forced to spend it on something that's sporadic at best. Not sure where this is coming from....old posts? My XMC-2 as I’ve stated in another post here is stable with the last firmware. I’ve had no issues. My current experience.
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Post by megash0n on Nov 4, 2020 23:00:28 GMT -5
Some states and some Provinces in Canada have consume protection laws regarding these situations. The cards were offered to those people who bought defective UMC-1s and they were issued as none expiring. I think Emo opened a can of worms, especially for a company who is known to frequently put their foot in their mouth. It will be interesting to see if anyone takes this up with them (local consumer protection) and see what happens. I can see UFL disappearing shortly as well then the trade up of the original XMC-1s will be gone as well. the bets are hedged against the fact that the only thing to get attention is a class action lawsuit. Not just for this, but for many different issues. A single person isn't going to spend the money to pursue legal action that would obviously be successful. In the end, it will cost more in legal fees than the product is worth. When a lawyer with spare time is inconvenienced, then said lawyer will pursue if deemed worthy of a class action lawsuit. Again, not enough money involved to matter. No one is going to take the time to enact of force change. They are just going to buy a different product. Change will not occur until the public stops voting with their cash. Or, they find a medium to express a desire for the company to change direction. So far, the community majority supports the business side of this corporation which means change will not occur. Your only course of action is to complain and be censored or take your money somewhere else.
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Post by megash0n on Nov 4, 2020 23:10:19 GMT -5
Will there always be complainers? Yes. That's the joy of being in Retail and dealing with the public. There isn't a company out there that doesn't have complainers, so it's not a no-win situation that Emotiva is in; it's a part of doing business. Did Dan promise they wouldn't expire? Yes. Has Dan been generous with the treatment of the cards? Yes. 10 years is an eternity in Retail. Is the website the best place for the info? Yes; there's a reason why he said it would be up there. Will the website info reach everyone? No. Are people complaining it's not on the website? Sort of; those people complaining in this thread obviously already know, so they're kind of complaining on behalf of the ones who are going to find out the hard way. However the real complaining is around if you say you're going to do something (on the podcast), and you're the CEO, then do it. And... this is pretty much the biggest source of the complaining about the card's expiring - regardless of how generous they've been, if you say something and you take it back, people will complain, and rightly so. Should those complaining about this, not complain because of other generous promotions and deals? That depends on the person. Those who choose to complain are right; and those who choose not to complain because of other deals or loyalty or friendship or any other reason are also right. Will those complaining about this, find something else to complain about? Probably. Will they be right in their later complaining? No doubt sometimes they'll be perfectly in the right, and other times they won't. One more - and this is my favorite: Will the non-complainers complain about the complainers? Yes. Will the complainers complain about the non-complainers complaining? Yes. I think your comments are spot on. All in all, I think people want to see intent on doing the right thing. If one could go back and make sure they posted this announcement on every medium possible, with a reasonable timeline ( not during a time when people are losing money and jobs), then the decision to change your mind is acceptable. It's understood. You personify and humanize the company and why its policy needs to change. Instead, you spend 8 mins of a Podcast talking about a new product to generate net new revenue. It is what it is, but I'd personally want a do over.
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Post by megash0n on Nov 4, 2020 23:21:42 GMT -5
let's not forget it is still riddled with bugs and incomplete. Sure, it is more stable and functions well enough for most.. But they are still a long ways from completing what they released. This is about maximizing revenue and limiting loss and outstanding liability. Change my mind. 😉 I’m going to have to differ on this one at least with my XMC-2. It’s been incredibly stable with the last firmware update. There have been no family complaints. I understand and appreciate your opinion. That's good news that you don't have complaints. Mine and my family's complaints are for sure less than they have been. We all look at things from different angels and no one person is right or wrong. All we can do is understand how and why we make decisions. Mine are always based on long-term trends and analysis based on many people or experiences.. Not just my own personal experiences. It's just how my brain works. Everyone's point of reference is valid and worthy of consideration. That's why we are on a public forum. 🙂 For whatever it's worth, I'm somewhat ok with the product I have today. I just don't like what I see looking backwards and forwards from this particular moment.
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Post by ttocs on Nov 4, 2020 23:40:44 GMT -5
Things of mine which were redeemable upon demand, lifetime warranties, lifetime subscriptions, or, lifetime upgrades - but were terminated. U.S. Silver Certificate Dollar (The government never contacted me about this.)
TomTom GPS (TomTom never contacted me when they discontinued the updates.) Garman GPS (Same as above.)
Rigid Tools Lifetime Warranty (They decided my tools' lifetime had expired but didn't tell me. All my tools still operate, but I found this out on an internet search for something else.)
Sears Craftsman Tools (The lifetime no-questions-asked warranty became a one-time replacement warranty, replacement was a marked refurb instead of a new tool whereas it used to be replaced with a NEW tool. I wasn't happy, but there it is.)
Wink Wifi Lightbulb and Hub (After buying into their system for years, Free with purchase became a paid subscription in addition to the purchase price - initially with a couple weeks of notice of payment required, then they added another month to decide. boo hoo.)
3-1/2 months notice is a short amount of time, and it's a long time. Depends on if you're on the giving or receiving end of that time frame. The 40% Off promo from ten years ago was something given as an incentive to buy in the future, which was also an incentive to buy the UMC-1. So I can understand the frustration associated with a lifetime promo having a termination date, as I outlined above (and as was demonstrated in the Bladerunner movies). Think about this, since the UMC-1 there's been a lot of buying opportunities: UMC-200, UMC-500, MC-700, XMC-1, XMC-2/RMC-1/RMC-1L. I purchased three of those processors without a 40% off promo card.
It should be obvious that any concerned holder of a 40% promo card should call Emo to see if something can be worked out, you never know unless you try. As to how hard Emo should try to "spread the word", some folks will ultimately determine it's either going to have been not good enough or not near good enough, it's a no-win situation for Emotiva.
There is a movie I really enjoyed which starred a young Joe Mantegna: Things Change.
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Post by cwt on Nov 5, 2020 1:09:58 GMT -5
Things of mine which were redeemable upon demand, lifetime warranties, lifetime subscriptions, or, lifetime upgrades - but were terminated. U.S. Silver Certificate Dollar (The government never contacted me about this.) TomTom GPS (TomTom never contacted me when they discontinued the updates.) Garman GPS (Same as above.) Rigid Tools Lifetime Warranty (They decided my tools' lifetime had expired but didn't tell me. All my tools still operate, but I found this out on an internet search for something else.) Sears Craftsman Tools (The lifetime no-questions-asked warranty became a one-time replacement warranty, replacement was a marked refurb instead of a new tool whereas it used to be replaced with a NEW tool. I wasn't happy, but there it is.) Wink Wifi Lightbulb and Hub (After buying into their system for years, Free with purchase became a paid subscription in addition to the purchase price - initially with a couple weeks of notice of payment required, then they added another month to decide. boo hoo.) You have illustrated the US situation well ttocs .Thankfully Aus consumer laws are more robust - extended warranties for example are peddled all the time by retailers but are a rip off if you know your ACCC commision rights . Small claims court should give relief for a printed card with supporting paperwork [at least for a Aus sourced pre pro you would think ]. I wont go into the politics and gridlock you have with your representatives for obvious reasons.. Hey hypothetically I wonder how the card system would play out if the AKM factory would take a year to rebuild ; Emo didnt have the plentiful stock of pre pros in inventory ; and production ground to a halt with no dacs ? Would the 40% card issue take second place to Emo's predicament .. I take solace in things like stock in hand and how Emo dodged a bullet with the hdmi 2.1 4k/120hz fiasco [like anthem has fluked/done with its new pre pro's - but presumably without the factory trip back to the mothership]
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novisnick
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CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Nov 5, 2020 1:13:07 GMT -5
I’ve sat here for an hour pondering whether or not to make this post, I’m full of mixed emotions. I’ll be glad to purchase that silver certificate at face value or even a bit more for your troubles ttocs .I still get updates on my TomTom via e-mail and a link to download them. Rigid has always tried to squirm out of there Lifetime service agreement and it has always expired when the tool was discontinued. Craftsman has been sold and resold and is not the same company it was years ago. Emotiva is still owned and operated by the same gentleman that founded it. I do get where your coming from but it’s still a sour taste in so many mouths. I’ve called Emotiva, Dan is not taking calls , There was a time when I / you could call Emotiva and speak with him. I was told They will not offer anything to help a card holder but wish me luck in the sale of the cards I invested in. These cards were strictly for the purchase Emotiva processors in the future. I/we were lead to believe, as Dan had said that these cards had no experation,(no, I don’t have it in writing. ) I’ve been treated well in the past by Emotiva and have a mountain of gear to show for it. I have been asked if my cave was an Emotiva showroom. My signature may be close to half my Emotiva gear. I did not purchase any cards that I did not personally want to use, I’ve been told to sell them and good luck! As the value has plummeted like my belief in Emotiva. I don’t do EBay or any other sales venue as they’ve suggested. So I get a pat on the head and a “Good luck “ selling your soon to be worthless investment in Emotiva. I’m not a complainer and I do understand Bussiness but I made my investments because I was assured they would be honored. As I’ve stated before, Emotiva has been fair and upfront in the past and I’ve usually thought I was treated right, I don’t feel that way now.
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Post by steelman1991 on Nov 5, 2020 4:37:54 GMT -5
Jeez there's a lot of "entitled" people around this world. People get a card that costs nothing and complain when it's withdrawn
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Post by steelman1991 on Nov 5, 2020 5:19:27 GMT -5
I would like to spend my card on a fully functional product, And not be forced to spend it on something that's sporadic at best. Not sure where this is coming from....old posts? My XMC-2 as I’ve stated in another post here is stable with the last firmware. I’ve had no issues. My current experience. Me too with an RMC-1. The fact that the threads are so quite of late would suggest there are a lot of "reasonably" happy customers out there.
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Post by bolle on Nov 5, 2020 6:22:54 GMT -5
Jeez there's a lot of "entitled" people around this world. People get a card that costs nothing and complain when it's withdrawn Not for nothing. Those people paid with something very valuable - their time. The card was a compensation for enduring the hassles of not very mature and bug ridden processor. So the ORIGINAL card owners DID pay a price for it. I can understand the frustration. Also it is just not very effective to communicate something like that in a small corner (podcast) and not via a medium with a much broader reach. I get lot of marketing mails from Emotiva - why not also include such an info there? It´s not like it costs more than a little bit of effort.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 5, 2020 7:30:59 GMT -5
I’m going to have to differ on this one at least with my XMC-2. It’s been incredibly stable with the last firmware update. There have been no family complaints. I understand and appreciate your opinion. That's good news that you don't have complaints. Mine and my family's complaints are for sure less than they have been. We all look at things from different angels and no one person is right or wrong. All we can do is understand how and why we make decisions. Mine are always based on long-term trends and analysis based on many people or experiences.. Not just my own personal experiences. It's just how my brain works. Everyone's point of reference is valid and worthy of consideration. That's why we are on a public forum. 🙂 For whatever it's worth, I'm somewhat ok with the product I have today. I just don't like what I see looking backwards and forwards from this particular moment. Agree that we all have our own opinions and ways of looking at things. What I don't understand is owning a product that I am not happy with and keeping it. I may be reading this wrong, but reading your posts on the RMC-1, one would have to conclude that it does not make you happy. These products are supposed to make us happy. Life is too short. I apologize if I'm not reading this right. I believe these processors have come to a point of stability at this time. I understand the frustration of those who first bought an RMC-1 and have had the longest time to endure the path to stability. That's hard. Some have persevered and others gave up. I think many are waiting on those promised modules also which will help with happiness. Anyway, we are straying somewhat off topic here. For me Emotiva has been great. They have provided higher end products at affordable prices for me to enjoy. I have been able to go with separates which I never thought would happen. They have been good to me and I have certainly rewarded them by purchasing product.
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Post by yeeeha17 on Nov 5, 2020 8:29:07 GMT -5
Jeez there's a lot of "entitled" people around this world. People get a card that costs nothing and complain when it's withdrawn Not for nothing. Those people paid with something very valuable - their time. The card was a compensation for enduring the hassles of not very mature and bug ridden processor. So the ORIGINAL card owners DID pay a price for it. I can understand the frustration. Also it is just not very effective to communicate something like that in a small corner (podcast) and not via a medium with a much broader reach. I get lot of marketing mails from Emotiva - why not also include such an info there? It´s not like it costs more than a little bit of effort. They only did a podcast and not a mass email because they don’t want everyone to know. The less cards being used the better for them. However, it is written by Dan that these cards have no expiration dates. We will see how this plays out. Someone better go take a screen shot of it before that post is deleted lol
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,223
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Post by novisnick on Nov 5, 2020 9:34:04 GMT -5
Jeez there's a lot of "entitled" people around this world. People get a card that costs nothing and complain when it's withdrawn I respect you right to your opinion but some of us compensated the original owners in a quicker fashion by buying their cards with a promise from Emotiva that said cards would be honored indefinitely. Nope, I didn’t capture the promise on tape or writing. Hindsight is not foresight. Who knew, right. So a rather small communication was put out about the cancellation of that promise. Many if not all of the members here know I visit the lounge VERY often, I missed “The podcast” and just recently found out about the demise of the 40% discount card. Miss a couple of hours and your in the dark apparently. I don’t find myself being “entitled”, I have always worked hard for what I’ve purchased and accomplished. Peace ✌️
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 5, 2020 11:45:38 GMT -5
I think the mistake Emo made with these cards is allowing them to be transferred with no restrictions. The idea was to promote brand loyalty, with the cards being a way to reward those who stayed with Emotiva when upgrading their processors. I'm sure they didn't realize how much the cards would be bought and sold in the market.
I believe a fair way to have handled it would be for the cards to be valid either to the original purchaser of the equipment, or to be transferred with the sale of the processor to which that card related, that sold processor being duly registered with Emo by the new owner. For these cases, the lives of the cards could then be unlimited because it would be a true reward for brand loyalty.
But to be trading the cards in the open market defeats the spirit and intent of the original offer by Emo.
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Post by Soup on Nov 5, 2020 11:48:31 GMT -5
NOT COOL! I used to own Emotiva gear. Had issues with both pieces, sold them, moved on to Anthem and never looked back. Just want to enjoy music and movies.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Nov 5, 2020 11:57:26 GMT -5
NOT COOL! I used to own Emotiva gear. Had issues with both pieces, sold them, moved on to Anthem and never looked back. Just want to enjoy music and movies. If you are never looking back....why are you here?
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Post by megash0n on Nov 5, 2020 12:16:55 GMT -5
Jeez there's a lot of "entitled" people around this world. People get a card that costs nothing and complain when it's withdrawn Not for nothing. Those people paid with something very valuable - their time. The card was a compensation for enduring the hassles of not very mature and bug ridden processor. So the ORIGINAL card owners DID pay a price for it. I can understand the frustration. Also it is just not very effective to communicate something like that in a small corner (podcast) and not via a medium with a much broader reach. I get lot of marketing mails from Emotiva - why not also include such an info there? It´s not like it costs more than a little bit of effort. Bingo. You get emails for revenue generating efforts or reviews to support those efforts. Time is the most valuable commodity here.
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Post by megash0n on Nov 5, 2020 12:24:11 GMT -5
I think the mistake Emo made with these cards is allowing them to be transferred with no restrictions. The idea was to promote brand loyalty, with the cards being a way to reward those who stayed with Emotiva when upgrading their processors. I'm sure they didn't realize how much the cards would be bought and sold in the market. I believe a fair way to have handled it would be for the cards to be valid either to the original purchaser of the equipment, or to be transferred with the sale of the processor to which that card related, that sold processor being duly registered with Emo by the new owner. For these cases, the lives of the cards could then be unlimited because it would be a true reward for brand loyalty. But to be trading the cards in the open market defeats the spirit and intent of the original offer by Emo. I think this is a reasonable statement for sure.
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