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Post by boomzilla on Nov 22, 2020 14:51:58 GMT -5
Just curious as to your impressions - things you like best / least?
Thanks - Boomzilla
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Post by audiobill on Nov 22, 2020 15:16:45 GMT -5
Boom, no real advantage over a Mac Mini running Roon core, and lots less flexible for any other use. My 2 cents, shared by many on the Roon site. Roon Nucleus is fundamentally an Intel NUC kit in a black box...,
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 22, 2020 19:26:25 GMT -5
Boom, no real advantage over a Mac Mini running Roon core, and lots less flexible for any other use. My 2 cents, shared by many on the Roon site. Roon Nucleus is merely an Intel NUC kit in a black box..., But my understanding was that, once set up, the Nucleus can run completely "headless" (no monitor, no keyboard, no mouse) and be completely controlled from the Roon Remote on a tablet. The Mac Mini can't do that. To "start" Roon, I have to turn on my TV, switch my TV to the Mac Mini input (providing a monitor), wake the Mac Mini (with my bluetooth mouse), start System-Preferences/Disc Utility, mount the external USB media disc, start Roon, and once Roon is up and running, connect the Roon Remote on the tablet to the Mac Mini Roon installation. My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Nucleus can stay on all the time, with the media disc mounted, and that when not in use, the Nucleus will automatically put the external disc to sleep. To start music using the Nucleus, I need merely start the tablet & open Roon-Remote (that automatically wakes both the media disc and the Roon installation). Done. The only "delay" in this process will be if I've added new media to the media drive since the last use. Then Roon will need to index the new material before it's accessible. I am also under the impression that should I wish to, I can mount a large capacity SSD inside the Nucleus to act as a library, thereby doing away with the external USB HDD entirely. I don't need a music server for any other use. I have computer hardware everywhere in the house. My goal is to consolidate components on the equipment rack, maximize sound quality, and simplify the entire process so my wife can use it. I'm hoping that that's what the Nucleus will do for me. Boom
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Post by wilburthegoose on Nov 22, 2020 20:22:57 GMT -5
I'm running an Intel NUC running ROCK -which is essentially the same thing as the Nucleus, but I had to "build" the NUC (took me an hour) and install the operating system. I have all my music on a magnetic hard drive (SSD is overkill) connected to the NUC via USB. Works flawlessly and is certainly an appliance type device. I have it in a utility closet in my basement, and it's connected via Ethernet. I much prefer it to running Roon Server on my Windows 10 PC. It's always on, takes almost no space, and only does one thing - runs Roon. Good info on ROCK: help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/roon-optimized-core-kit
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Post by audiobill on Nov 22, 2020 22:56:22 GMT -5
Boom, few of the things you describe are necessary with a MacMini. Once set up, just use an ipad, iphone etc with the Roon app to control Roon Core resident on the Mini. I do this every day.
Bill
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 23, 2020 3:42:52 GMT -5
Hi audiobill - So your Mini runs 24/7? Your external data drive runs 24/7? Seems a recipe for early demise...
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Post by audiobill on Nov 23, 2020 4:57:44 GMT -5
Hi Glenn, yes the mac mini has been running 24/7 since 2014. I rarely listen to my rips (99.9% streaming Tidal and Qobuz through Roon) so the internal and external drives are very quiet. I've never heard the Mini fan go on either. To me, one advantage of using the Mac Mini is to run REW sweeps on it, then directly import the resulting convolution filters into Roon. Cheap, easy and effective dsp room correction. If you do want a Nucleus+, build one (configuration info is on Roon as Wilburthegoose links) and save big bucks. You can even get a fanless case from Akasa. NUC means NUCleus lol. www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc.htmlwww.anandtech.com/show/16191/akasa-turing-fanless-case-review-noiseless-nuc-nonpareilAll available on Amazon.... Best,
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Post by sep297 on Nov 23, 2020 5:46:13 GMT -5
I have been running an intel nuc running Roon’s own operating system Rock for a number of years with little trouble and a lot cheaper than a nucleus+. I think the only thing it cannot do is control integration such as control4 etc etc which is specific to Nucleus.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 23, 2020 9:47:30 GMT -5
Hi audiobill - So your Mini runs 24/7? Your external data drive runs 24/7? Seems a recipe for early demise... I have a similar setup. I also have my data on another two identical external hard drives. Not really worried about it. Everything dies when the devices eventually do I’ll purchase another. I’ve read more times then I can count that most devices are more prone to die the more often they cycle off and on. Believe what you like but these items use little electricity and generate little heat vs something like an amp. My phono preamp, DAC and my SOTM streamer are always on and ready to go. no worries 😁
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 23, 2020 9:54:55 GMT -5
The reason I'm specifically interested in the Nucleus+ is that I'm being sent one for review. It's not here yet, but I'm wanting to do research in anticipation of its arrival. So, sep297, I found out what "control4" is, and what is it used for. But, since you seem knowledgable, what does your "etc. etc." refer to in relation to the Nucleus? And, audiobill, is it reasonable to mention, compare, and contrast the generic NUCs against the Nucleus+ in the review? I would think that the market for the NUC solution would be a virtually totally separate market than the customer-pool that would be interested in the actual Nucleus products. The NUC base is: Technically competent Value oriented DIY-friendly The Nucleus customers, on the other hand, would maybe tend to be: Less thrift-oriented More eager to have a turn-key solution Willing to pay for technical support from Roon Of course, I could be wrong, but that's the divide I see. It would be unlikely for a NUC user to ever buy a Nucleus from Roon; it would be equally unlikely for a Nucleus customer to be interested in a NUC. Your thoughts? novisnick - It is true that heat/cool cycles can reduce service life. But it's also true that for moving parts (hard-drives in particular), the service life is generally measured in "run-hours." The platter bearings, in particular, only wear when the drive is running. The two ways to get around the inevitable wear-out period are to: Shut the drive down when not in use or Use a SSD with no moving parts Now it's true that any computer can be set to shut down the HDD (internal or external) after X-minutes of non-use. But it's also true that no data can be read from the HDD on startup until the platters reach full speed. I wouldn't think this a particular issue. BUT having the NUC (or the Nucleus) with attendant data-drive on all the time introduces the virtual certainty of power supply voltage swings (unless a line-conditioner is used) and possible data corruption on abrupt power loss (unless a battery backup is also used). So in addition to the NUC or Nucleus, I assume that one should also factor in the price of a UPS/conditioner?
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 23, 2020 9:56:37 GMT -5
boomzillaI run Roon the same way audiobill does, with the exception of being on a Windows platform. As my core, I have a small PC that is fanless (or, if it does have a fan - I have never heard it even with my ear right up to it). The PC is networked, and I have a hard drive attached via USB 3.0 to my router. It has all my music + pix and other personal data. It's backed up in duplicate to hard drives that are rarely in use. I have Roon installed on my office's PC as well as my Surface tablet. When I am listening to my main system, I use Roon on the tablet to select music and have it play to the main system. When I want to listen at either of my headphone stations, I use Roon on the tablet to select music and have it play to the appropriate Pi. At my desk in my office, I just use Roon on that desktop. The PC that's my core is connected such that I can view the actual PC details through the TV that's part of my theater, but while I can control Roon that way (via a wireless keyboard) - I rarely ever do. Most of the time - it's headless. The main reason I project the PC's desktop to the TV is to check to see if Windows wants to do an update and allow it to run. FYI, I also set up Roon so it sees my Sonos units as output zone options. I like controlling my Sonos from Roon better than Sonos' software - I think Sonos has taken a step back in user-friendliness since I first got Sonos for around the house. My wife is used to using the Sonos app on her phone, so I have not "Roon-ed" her yet. LOL! Mark
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Post by klinemj on Nov 23, 2020 10:03:53 GMT -5
boomzilla - I think you are right about the difference between target markets for NUC's vs. a Nucleus. If I were you, I would mostly leave NUC's out of the review and focus on the Nucleus. I say "mostly" because I would add that Roon can be used on other devices, including NUC's, ordinary PC's/Mac's/tablets/etc - but the Nucleus provides a dedicated, pre-built option for those who either don't want to fiddle with building their own or putting the software on other devices. There is a whole crew out there who feels they can build better sounding options using NUC's or other devices. I delved into that NUC world for a while to learn about it, and my take was that they are mostly techie nerds who spend more time worrying about parts and software settings than listening. Of course, once in a while - some find some really good options and it makes people happy. I'll put my UltraRendu into that category. And, I still love it. Mark
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 23, 2020 10:14:28 GMT -5
...I have a small PC that is fanless (or, if it does have a fan - I have never heard it even with my ear right up to it). The PC is networked, and I have a hard drive attached via USB 3.0 to my router. It has all my music + pix and other personal data. It's backed up in duplicate to hard drives that are rarely in use... I"m sure you already know this, but it seems that you've violated half of the backup rule: Multiple copies in multiple physical locations - Should your house get struck by lightning, it's credible that your drives (all of them) could be simultaneously destroyed. I use an online backup service (Backblaze) that allows me to back up my audio data (all 4TB of it) so that if my local equipment is stolen, burned, or fried, I can just replace the equipment and restore the online backup. It's cheap, reliable, and bulletproof. Boom
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Post by sep297 on Nov 23, 2020 10:46:17 GMT -5
Boomzilla, The thing that only the nucleus can do is home automation using high end installed systems such as Control4 and Crestion. community.roonlabs.com/c/home-automation/68The ROCK software you would run on a NUC or a nucleus are very similar apart from this and I believe some temperature management stuff for the fancy fan less case. There are also the usual debates about fancy ethernet cables and linear power supplies for them also.
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Post by LuisV on Nov 23, 2020 10:49:41 GMT -5
I'm currently running Roon core on an Ubuntu VM that runs on my backup NAS. I run Unraid as the NAS OS and it's built around an Intel i5 with 16GB of RAM and 24TB of storage. My main Unraid NAS is built around a Ryzen 1800x, 32GB of RAM and 32TB of storage. Besides the Linux updates requiring a reboot, Roon runs perfectly. I picked Linux over Windows to save on the license cost. During the winter I plan on migrating core to run as a docker. As others have indicated, besides a nice heatsink, there are no major differences between a NUC running Rock and the Nucleus. My media is backed up to two different cloud solutions and syncs between my 2 Unraid servers, each located in different homes.
NUC vs Nucleus in your review... it's like cables, tubes, etc... a rabbit hole you may not want to venture into. However, 100% agreed that a Nucleus vs a semi-DIY option serve different markets. After I did a little research and saw the internals, I was unwilling to pay the additional cost for the Nucleus.
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Post by audiobill on Nov 23, 2020 11:02:51 GMT -5
boomzilla - I think you are right about the difference between target markets for NUC's vs. a Nucleus. If I were you, I would mostly leave NUC's out of the review and focus on the Nucleus. I say "mostly" because I would add that Roon can be used on other devices, including NUC's, ordinary PC's/Mac's/tablets/etc - but the Nucleus provides a dedicated, pre-built option for those who either don't want to fiddle with building their own or putting the software on other devices. There is a whole crew out there who feels they can build better sounding options using NUC's or other devices. I delved into that NUC world for a while to learn about it, and my take was that they are mostly techie nerds who spend more time worrying about parts and software settings than listening. Of course, once in a while - some find some really good options and it makes people happy. I'll put my UltraRendu into that category. And, I still love it. Mark Boom agree with Mark, different strokes. But fair to say the Nucleus+ is literally the Intel NUC in a Roon case with a mark up. They as much as say so. Best,
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Nov 23, 2020 11:29:20 GMT -5
...I have a small PC that is fanless (or, if it does have a fan - I have never heard it even with my ear right up to it). The PC is networked, and I have a hard drive attached via USB 3.0 to my router. It has all my music + pix and other personal data. It's backed up in duplicate to hard drives that are rarely in use... I"m sure you already know this, but it seems that you've violated half of the backup rule: Multiple copies in multiple physical locations - Should your house get struck by lightning, it's credible that your drives (all of them) could be simultaneously destroyed. I use an online backup service (Backblaze) that allows me to back up my audio data (all 4TB of it) so that if my local equipment is stolen, burned, or fried, I can just replace the equipment and restore the online backup. It's cheap, reliable, and bulletproof. Boom Who said they are all plugged in? Also, I know people who relied on "cloud" storage and have lost all their stuff anyway. You know...like...Apple users (including my daughter who was very happy I had a backup on my system...) Mark
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 23, 2020 12:08:12 GMT -5
Yeah - I’m a “belt & suspenders” guy myself. I keep an (unplugged) backup disc at home AND I use Backblaze.
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Post by DYohn on Nov 23, 2020 12:33:17 GMT -5
Boom, my Roon server runs "completely headless" and it is a PC platform I built myself. You don't need a Nucleus for that.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 23, 2020 13:12:03 GMT -5
The reason I'm specifically interested in the Nucleus+ is that I'm being sent one for review. It's not here yet, but I'm wanting to do research in anticipation of its arrival. So, sep297 , I found out what "control4" is, and what is it used for. But, since you seem knowledgable, what does your "etc. etc." refer to in relation to the Nucleus? And, audiobill , is it reasonable to mention, compare, and contrast the generic NUCs against the Nucleus+ in the review? I would think that the market for the NUC solution would be a virtually totally separate market than the customer-pool that would be interested in the actual Nucleus products. The NUC base is: Technically competent Value oriented DIY-friendly The Nucleus customers, on the other hand, would maybe tend to be: Less thrift-oriented More eager to have a turn-key solution Willing to pay for technical support from Roon Of course, I could be wrong, but that's the divide I see. It would be unlikely for a NUC user to ever buy a Nucleus from Roon; it would be equally unlikely for a Nucleus customer to be interested in a NUC. Your thoughts? novisnick - It is true that heat/cool cycles can reduce service life. But it's also true that for moving parts (hard-drives in particular), the service life is generally measured in "run-hours." The platter bearings, in particular, only wear when the drive is running. The two ways to get around the inevitable wear-out period are to: Shut the drive down when not in use or Use a SSD with no moving parts Now it's true that any computer can be set to shut down the HDD (internal or external) after X-minutes of non-use. But it's also true that no data can be read from the HDD on startup until the platters reach full speed. I wouldn't think this a particular issue. BUT having the NUC (or the Nucleus) with attendant data-drive on all the time introduces the virtual certainty of power supply voltage swings (unless a line-conditioner is used) and possible data corruption on abrupt power loss (unless a battery backup is also used). So in addition to the NUC or Nucleus, I assume that one should also factor in the price of a UPS/conditioner? Yes, Yes and No. Yes that mechanical drives fail, so does everything else so I’m not too worried. Putting the computer and HD to sleep is painless. (at least for me! Ha! Ha!) No, I’m not sure of your analysis of opting for the Nucleus or the NUC. I had investigated these a few years ago when they hit the market. Either route would have suited me well. I came very close to flipping a coin but further analysis made me take the Mac Mini External HD route as I already had the Mini and found it to be an easy implementation. Also, I can’t remember which, but one has a limited made to order Roon application. The other you pay for outright, or monthly payments. Have they stopped lifetime purchases? I’m not sure. I’m a Lifer, whatever that means nowadays! Seems to mean different things to different people. 😢 Sad
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