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Post by gus4emo on Nov 30, 2020 22:09:50 GMT -5
Hi all....So, a 3 way, 3.5, or 4 way....what about 6 way or more, let's say tweeters that would cover 15k, 16k, 17k...all the way to 20k, individually, would that work.. Or does it sound stupid to even try it...
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 9:01:33 GMT -5
Anyone??
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Post by ttocs on Dec 1, 2020 9:24:43 GMT -5
I don't know enough about crosovers, but I would suspect that crossovers would be the problem.
Now, if each driver could be made to "specialize" in a limited range so crosovers are kept to a minimum, that might work to cover the frequency range. The next hurdle is how to arrange all the drivers in terms of how to mount them. In other words, it's a baffling problem!
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Post by simpleman68 on Dec 1, 2020 9:27:41 GMT -5
As someone who knows VERY little about speaker design/build, I'd think it would be a nightmare to coordinate them into a cohesive signal.
I figure it's one of those trade off things. Fewer drivers has the benefit of more accurate phase at the cost of more distortion per driver.
More drivers offers less distortion (reminds me of the positive aspect of line arrays where each driver is doing less work) but then the battle is to keep phase alignment.
Scott
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 9:39:23 GMT -5
You quickly reach the point of diminishing returns. Plus it is totally unnecessary. But if you are a designer and want to go for it, go for it.
I will say that the upper frequencies are far easier to reproduce than the lower ones, so if you want to design a 6-wy speaker, concentrate on frequencies below 1000 hz for your multiple driver system.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 9:40:32 GMT -5
I don't know enough about crosovers, but I would suspect that crossovers would be the problem. Now, if each driver could be made to "specialize" in a limited range so crosovers are kept to a minimum, that might work to cover the frequency range. The next hurdle is how to arrange all the drivers in terms of how to mount them. In other words, it's a baffling problem! Not a problem, just overly complex. But it could be done. The real question is why? There is no real benefit from such a scheme.
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 9:42:10 GMT -5
I don't know enough about crosovers, but I would suspect that crossovers would be the problem. Now, if each driver could be made to "specialize" in a limited range so crosovers are kept to a minimum, that might work to cover the frequency range. The next hurdle is how to arrange all the drivers in terms of how to mount them. In other words, it's a baffling problem! The crossovers would be digitally...
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 9:44:56 GMT -5
I don't know enough about crosovers, but I would suspect that crossovers would be the problem. Now, if each driver could be made to "specialize" in a limited range so crosovers are kept to a minimum, that might work to cover the frequency range. The next hurdle is how to arrange all the drivers in terms of how to mount them. In other words, it's a baffling problem! The crossovers would be digitally... Even more of a problem. What do you plan, a 6-channel amp per speaker? This kind of silliness is often done in car audio. Again, not because of any real benefit but because it can be done.
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 9:49:53 GMT -5
I don't know enough about crosovers, but I would suspect that crossovers would be the problem. Now, if each driver could be made to "specialize" in a limited range so crosovers are kept to a minimum, that might work to cover the frequency range. The next hurdle is how to arrange all the drivers in terms of how to mount them. In other words, it's a baffling problem! Not a problem, just overly complex. But it could be done. The real question is why? There is no real benefit from such a scheme. But it could make speakers more efficient?, More natural sounding? Just like a 12 inch would do better than an 8 inch driver? Say a trumpet is getting loud, and louder...would it sound cleaner if there are 3 tweeters handling different frequencies....just a point...
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 10:28:37 GMT -5
Not a problem, just overly complex. But it could be done. The real question is why? There is no real benefit from such a scheme. But it could make speakers more efficient?, More natural sounding? Just like a 12 inch would do better than an 8 inch driver? Say a trumpet is getting loud, and louder...would it sound cleaner if there are 3 tweeters handling different frequencies....just a point... would it sound cleaner? No, not necessarily. Plus, do you realize the frequency range of a trumpet? A trumpet reproduces about 150Hz to about 1500Hz, with harmonics going up to about 10Khz. So you need a good woofer and midrange for a trumpet - and the same is true for nearly all instruments. Who ever told you a 12 inch woofer is better than an 8 inch? Better at what? There is no such generalization that can be made, except perhaps dbSPL at the lowest frequencies, and that depends a lot more on the enclosure than on the driver. Using muilti-way loudspeakers does increase efficiency, but more than a 4-way is completely unnecessary.
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Post by mv on Dec 1, 2020 10:44:10 GMT -5
The best application for this type of arrangement would be with a line array, in which you could EQ blocks of the drivers to compensate for the room/venues boundaries and reflections...which would be more of a phase adjustment than a EQ adjustment. Also another thing to note is that a speaker is designed to be most efficient/flat between x and y frequencies...so unless you were mixing 6 different drivers it would be irrelevant to EQ them individually if the frequencies fell along the flat portion of the response curve. Like most I am not an expert, so this would be a question for the likes of Curt Campbell or Pete Schumacher.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 10:55:22 GMT -5
Line array systems theoretically reduce distortion and increases efficiency, but they don't do it through EQ they do it through physics. They are far-field designs which is why you most commonly see them in live sound reinforcement (where high SPL and high efficiency is king) rather than in the home where people tend to sit closer to them than they need to develop their point-source effect.
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Post by boomzilla on Dec 1, 2020 10:56:58 GMT -5
One of the most common reasons for multi-way speakers is to use gentler crossover slopes. Using first-order crossovers (6-dB per octave) will produce phase-coherent waves at the crossover frequency. If the designer also opts to time-align the drivers (using physical displacement and/or electrical phase modification), then the wave launch can be born phase-coherent AND time-aligned across the entire audio spectrum. This isn’t Boom’s theory. It was the applied practice of one of the greatest speaker-designers ever, Mr. Jim Thiel. To do this, though, the drivers must all have WIDE bandwidth (+ or - about 1.5 octaves beyond their crossover points) to avoid distortion. One of Mr. Thiel’s masterpieces (many would argue, his ultimate) was the Thiel 5i speaker - a five-way,six driver design that achieved 23-28kHz. Response plus or minus ONE decibel. So yes, there is a history of multi-way speakers of very high performance. But the Thiel method is not the only application for multi-way design. Some speakers use multi-way design and multiple drivers per frequency band to achieve very high power handling and/or very high sensitivity. Of course, problems of level-matching, impedance control, phase matching, resonance control, and physical driver interactions increase exponentially with speaker complexity. Therefore, only highly experienced speaker designers (or amateurs who don’t know any better) attempt complex, multi-way speaker designs.
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 1, 2020 11:01:40 GMT -5
The cost of any such undertaking would vastly outweigh any benefit.
And why stop at just 6?
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 12:22:17 GMT -5
But it could make speakers more efficient?, More natural sounding? Just like a 12 inch would do better than an 8 inch driver? Say a trumpet is getting loud, and louder...would it sound cleaner if there are 3 tweeters handling different frequencies....just a point... would it sound cleaner? No, not necessarily. Plus, do you realize the frequency range of a trumpet? A trumpet reproduces about 150Hz to about 1500Hz, with harmonics going up to about 10Khz. So you need a good woofer and midrange for a trumpet - and the same is true for nearly all instruments. Who ever told you a 12 inch woofer is better than an 8 inch? Better at what? There is no such generalization that can be made, except perhaps dbSPL at the lowest frequencies, and that depends a lot more on the enclosure than on the driver. Using muilti-way loudspeakers does increase efficiency, but more than a 4-way is completely unnecessary. 12 inch driver would go deeper, that's my point, the smaller woofer would handle mid frequencies, that is my point, in a multi way speaker, going your way, of course a good implementation of a 10 inch driver would be better than a 15 incher poorly designed...
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 12:23:42 GMT -5
One of the most common reasons for multi-way speakers is to use gentler crossover slopes. Using first-order crossovers (6-dB per octave) will produce phase-coherent waves at the crossover frequency. If the designer also opts to time-align the drivers (using physical displacement and/or electrical phase modification), then the wave launch can be born phase-coherent AND time-aligned across the entire audio spectrum. This isn’t Boom’s theory. It was the applied practice of one of the greatest speaker-designers ever, Mr. Jim Thiel. To do this, though, the drivers must all have WIDE bandwidth (+ or - about 1.5 octaves beyond their crossover points) to avoid distortion. One of Mr. Thiel’s masterpieces (many would argue, his ultimate) was the Thiel 5i speaker - a five-way,six driver design that achieved 23-28kHz. Response plus or minus ONE decibel. So yes, there is a history of multi-way speakers of very high performance. But the Thiel method is not the only application for multi-way design. Some speakers use multi-way design and multiple drivers per frequency band to achieve very high power handling and/or very high sensitivity. Of course, problems of level-matching, impedance control, phase matching, resonance control, and physical driver interactions increase exponentially with speaker complexity. Therefore, only highly experienced speaker designers (or amateurs who don’t know any better) attempt complex, multi-way speaker designs. A 5 way speaker, that's close to what my question was...
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 12:29:41 GMT -5
The crossovers would be digitally... Even more of a problem. What do you plan, a 6-channel amp per speaker? This kind of silliness is often done in car audio. Again, not because of any real benefit but because it can be done. So they have multi channel movie soundtracks, that's related in a way to my question, do you get my point? So, what about making a system so you would be able to position your speakers according to the number of musicians on the band, one speaker per musician, wouldn't it be great?
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 13:03:14 GMT -5
Even more of a problem. What do you plan, a 6-channel amp per speaker? This kind of silliness is often done in car audio. Again, not because of any real benefit but because it can be done. So they have multi channel movie soundtracks, that's related in a way to my question, do you get my point? So, what about making a system so you would be able to position your speakers according to the number of musicians on the band, one speaker per musician, wouldn't it be great? Not according to me, but hey if it makes you happy go for it!
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 13:05:53 GMT -5
would it sound cleaner? No, not necessarily. Plus, do you realize the frequency range of a trumpet? A trumpet reproduces about 150Hz to about 1500Hz, with harmonics going up to about 10Khz. So you need a good woofer and midrange for a trumpet - and the same is true for nearly all instruments. Who ever told you a 12 inch woofer is better than an 8 inch? Better at what? There is no such generalization that can be made, except perhaps dbSPL at the lowest frequencies, and that depends a lot more on the enclosure than on the driver. Using muilti-way loudspeakers does increase efficiency, but more than a 4-way is completely unnecessary. 12 inch driver would go deeper, that's my point, the smaller woofer would handle mid frequencies, that is my point, in a multi way speaker, going your way, of course a good implementation of a 10 inch driver would be better than a 15 incher poorly designed... A 12 inch does not "go deeper" than an 8 inch. It's just that with the proper enclosure design it will go deep more loudly. I have designed subwoofers with 6 inch drivers that hit 20 Hz with ease, so it's about the system design as much as the driver. Using a large woofer system for the lowest octaves, a mid-woofer for the mid-bass octaves, a midrange for the mids and a tweeter for the highs is a 4-way system.
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Post by ttocs on Dec 1, 2020 13:16:00 GMT -5
I love the center speaker array above the drummer. That's what I want! But then, where does the tv go?
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