DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 14:26:28 GMT -5
I believe the Wall of Sound (that photo) was a 3-way system in terms of frequency distribution, with most of the speakers being full-rangers.
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Post by boomzilla on Dec 1, 2020 14:53:06 GMT -5
I believe the Wall of Sound (that photo) was a 3-way system in terms of frequency distribution, with most of the speakers being full-rangers. If I remember correctly, you're absolutely right. Their woofers had a natural roll-off where their midranges came in. The tweeters were equalized to provide more HF output. The system was originally a 4-way design, but the tweeters put out too much distortion, so they were omitted and the upper-mid horns equalized to handle treble too.
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 14:59:47 GMT -5
12 inch driver would go deeper, that's my point, the smaller woofer would handle mid frequencies, that is my point, in a multi way speaker, going your way, of course a good implementation of a 10 inch driver would be better than a 15 incher poorly designed... A 12 inch does not "go deeper" than an 8 inch. It's just that with the proper enclosure design it will go deep more loudly. I have designed subwoofers with 6 inch drivers that hit 20 Hz with ease, so it's about the system design as much as the driver. Using a large woofer system for the lowest octaves, a mid-woofer for the mid-bass octaves, a midrange for the mids and a tweeter for the highs is a 4-way system. So it would not be a good idea to cross the highs with maybe at least 2 tweeters, each handling different frequencies?
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Post by Jeremy on Dec 1, 2020 15:01:17 GMT -5
Just my 2 cents... If you already have a 3-way speaker (I do) + a sub, you're already at a 4-way system. I have 2 sealed subs and 2 ported subs. They overlap with most of the frequency range but the ported subs will play lower and louder than the sealed subs. So technically, I have a 5-way. Add a super tweeter for airiness and a low frequency transducer for subsonics that you feel (like a bass shaker) and you're at a 7 way. I won't go farther than what I already have though. It's already a bit much.
In the car audio days (some still do it), it wasn't uncommon to find 4-way and 5-way set ups for sound quality competitions. Cars are very different sound environments than rooms. There's a lot to be said about cabin gain for midbass and subs. Heck, there are 4-way systems from the factory in a lot of today's cars. Lincoln has Revel, Audi has B&O, BMW has B&W, Mercedes & Porsche has Bermester, Acura has Krell, Genesis has Lexicon, Range Rover has Meridian, Bentley has Naim, Lexus has Mark Levinson... Ford even had McIntosh for the Ford GT (1st Gen). The Naim system in the Bentley is 18 speakers, 2 transducers and 2,200w.
I guess what I'm saying is that it can be done. Should it be done, probably not without some serious money, serious sound engineering or just plain fun cause you're LOADED!
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 15:04:54 GMT -5
A 12 inch does not "go deeper" than an 8 inch. It's just that with the proper enclosure design it will go deep more loudly. I have designed subwoofers with 6 inch drivers that hit 20 Hz with ease, so it's about the system design as much as the driver. Using a large woofer system for the lowest octaves, a mid-woofer for the mid-bass octaves, a midrange for the mids and a tweeter for the highs is a 4-way system. So it would not be a good idea to cross the highs with maybe at least 2 tweeters, each handling different frequencies? The only application for that sort of solution is if a "super tweeter" is added to a system to cover frequencies beyond the reach of the chosen tweeter, typically above 20KHz. But no, in general you want your loudspeaker system to have one point source for high frequency sound.
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Post by boomzilla on Dec 1, 2020 15:16:35 GMT -5
...in general you want your loudspeaker system to have one point source for high frequency sound. Arnie Nudell might disagree... But "in general," you're right.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 15:25:29 GMT -5
Line arrays create a point source when used at the proper distance. That is their purpose.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Dec 1, 2020 16:11:08 GMT -5
I think one of the best 'historic' examples of multi-way speakers was the Dahlquist DQ-10, 5-way I believe and if you added a sub there's your 6. It was one of my favorite speakers of it's day (along with the original Magnepan MGII). The piezo tweeter on the DQ could get bright with the wrong amp, but setup properly those speakers sounded great!
The DQ-10 and MGII were super values at well under $1000 / pr.
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Post by ottaone on Dec 1, 2020 16:51:42 GMT -5
And some think that for certain use cases, a good speaker Is the simplest of designs. Wish I was stateside so I could try things like this: www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/soul
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 1, 2020 18:16:12 GMT -5
12 inch driver would go deeper, that's my point, the smaller woofer would handle mid frequencies, that is my point, in a multi way speaker, going your way, of course a good implementation of a 10 inch driver would be better than a 15 incher poorly designed... A 12 inch does not "go deeper" than an 8 inch. It's just that with the proper enclosure design it will go deep more loudly. I have designed subwoofers with 6 inch drivers that hit 20 Hz with ease, so it's about the system design as much as the driver. Using a large woofer system for the lowest octaves, a mid-woofer for the mid-bass octaves, a midrange for the mids and a tweeter for the highs is a 4-way system. That made me think of headphones. Those have tiny drivers yet don't they reproduce very low frequencies? Of course your ear is right up to the drivers but it does get across the point that size is not the determinant of how low a frequency a transducer can reproduce. Maybe Tekton should make a speaker with 100 1" woofers...
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 1, 2020 18:37:08 GMT -5
A 12 inch does not "go deeper" than an 8 inch. It's just that with the proper enclosure design it will go deep more loudly. I have designed subwoofers with 6 inch drivers that hit 20 Hz with ease, so it's about the system design as much as the driver. Using a large woofer system for the lowest octaves, a mid-woofer for the mid-bass octaves, a midrange for the mids and a tweeter for the highs is a 4-way system. That made me think of headphones. Those have tiny drivers yet don't they reproduce very low frequencies? Of course your ear is right up to the drivers but it does get across the point that size is not the determinant of how low a frequency a transducer can reproduce. My Voce electrostatics are flat to 6Hz.
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 20:43:47 GMT -5
...in general you want your loudspeaker system to have one point source for high frequency sound. Arnie Nudell might disagree... But "in general," you're right. Lol...thanks...
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 20:46:15 GMT -5
I think one of the best 'historic' examples of multi-way speakers was the Dahlquist DQ-10, 5-way I believe and if you added a sub there's your 6. It was one of my favorite speakers of it's day (along with the original Magnepan MGII). The piezo tweeter on the DQ could get bright with the wrong amp, but setup properly those speakers sounded great! The DQ-10 and MGII were super values at well under $1000 / pr. Thanks a lot...
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 20:55:43 GMT -5
A 12 inch does not "go deeper" than an 8 inch. It's just that with the proper enclosure design it will go deep more loudly. I have designed subwoofers with 6 inch drivers that hit 20 Hz with ease, so it's about the system design as much as the driver. Using a large woofer system for the lowest octaves, a mid-woofer for the mid-bass octaves, a midrange for the mids and a tweeter for the highs is a 4-way system. That made me think of headphones. Those have tiny drivers yet don't they reproduce very low frequencies? Of course your ear is right up to the drivers but it does get across the point that size is not the determinant of how low a frequency a transducer can reproduce. Maybe Tekton should make a speaker with 100 1" woofers... Have you ever watched U571 with your headphones and feel the bass on your chest with the depth chargers? Lol...just messing with you...
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Post by gus4emo on Dec 1, 2020 21:04:38 GMT -5
That made me think of headphones. Those have tiny drivers yet don't they reproduce very low frequencies? Of course your ear is right up to the drivers but it does get across the point that size is not the determinant of how low a frequency a transducer can reproduce. My Voce electrostatics are flat to 6Hz. Can you recommend a song or a movie that goes down to 6hz?
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Post by boomzilla on Dec 2, 2020 5:55:04 GMT -5
Can you recommend a song or a movie that goes down to 6hz? Maybe this one:
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 2, 2020 9:37:24 GMT -5
My Voce electrostatics are flat to 6Hz. Can you recommend a song or a movie that goes down to 6hz? No, and that's not the point.
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Post by 405x5 on Dec 2, 2020 9:42:11 GMT -5
Hi all....So, a 3 way, 3.5, or 4 way....what about 6 way or more, let's say tweeters that would cover 15k, 16k, 17k...all the way to 20k, individually, would that work.. Or does it sound stupid to even try it... More is less
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Post by boomzilla on Dec 2, 2020 9:58:31 GMT -5
Can you recommend a song or a movie that goes down to 6hz? No, and that's not the point. And that brings up a good, but seldom-discussed question - How far beyond the expected program bandwidth must a speaker's response extend? If we use the conventional program bandwidth of 20-20kHz. then an extra octave on each end would be 10-40kHz. response from the loudspeaker. This seems excessively demanding. But if we limit the speaker's requirements to only a half an octave beyond the program, we get 15-30kHz. Still difficult, but not impossible. However, the VAST majority of speakers can't meet the half octave surplus either. In fact most speakers have -3dB responses of closer to 40-15kHz. Even with a "subwoofer," the -3dB only goes down to about 30. Equalization can compensate to some extent, provided that the speakers' power handling is adequate, but at the expense of excessive distortion. Some argue that distortion at the frequency extremes is not audible, but I've not seen any studies confirming that (not to say it isn't so - just that I don't know if it's proven). So to repeat the question - how far should a speaker's response extend beyond the anticipated music bandwidth in order to both avoid excessive distortion and to cleanly reproduce all program frequencies? KeithL? Boomzilla
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Dec 2, 2020 10:08:59 GMT -5
No, and that's not the point. And that brings up a good, but seldom-discussed question - How far beyond the expected program bandwidth must a speaker's response extend? If we use the conventional program bandwidth of 20-20kHz. then an extra octave on each end would be 10-40kHz. response from the loudspeaker. This seems excessively demanding. But if we limit the speaker's requirements to only a half an octave beyond the program, we get 15-30kHz. Still difficult, but not impossible. However, the VAST majority of speakers can't meet the half octave surplus either. In fact most speakers have -3dB responses of closer to 40-15kHz. Even with a "subwoofer," the -3dB only goes down to about 30. Equalization can compensate to some extent, provided that the speakers' power handling is adequate, but at the expense of excessive distortion. Some argue that distortion at the frequency extremes is not audible, but I've not seen any studies confirming that (not to say it isn't so - just that I don't know if it's proven). So to repeat the question - how far should a speaker's response extend beyond the anticipated music bandwidth in order to both avoid excessive distortion and to cleanly reproduce all program frequencies? KeithL? Boomzilla "Must" is too strong a word. One of the most musically pleasing systems I have ever listened to had usable FR from about 38Hz to about 15KHz. On the other hand systems with response from subsonic to supersonic can sound bad. It all depends on the system and it's integration into the room. There is no hard ruls for frequency response. If it sounds good then it is good.
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