KlineMJ's Review of the XMC-2

[klinemj]

I recently upgraded my XMC-1 to an XMC-2. I'd been holding off for 2 reasons. First, I had no need for 4K or Atmos yet in my theater. Second, I was waiting until Dirac was released and users said the FW was stable. I recently decided to upgrade my TV to 4K (and am thinking about Atmos), and from what I was reading - the FW is basically stable and it appears Dirac is working well other than things users here have reported that Dirac is working on (and of course, the extra cost Dirac bass software).

So, I pulled the plug. Overall, I am extremely happy.

Setup has gone quickly. I now have 5 different inputs set up. I set up 1 each for my Roku Ultra, my (new) LG Panasonic UB-420 4K BluRay player, my Oppo 105, as well as 2 different ones for me to use for 2-channel. Of the 2-channel ones, I set up one to accept my LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity DAC's XLR outputs and one to take USB input directly from the UltraRendu that normally feeds the Geek.

The only confusion I had on setup (so far) were 2 items. First, I was trying to set my sub as Center Sub taking LFE on "Preset 1", and the LFE option didn't show up. With some advice here to set the left/right sub outputs to mono, suddenly the LFE option showed up for the center sub. "Go figure". The manual could be better in that regard - and for that matter, it doesn't make sense the LFE option would not show up in the first place. Second, when I set up the "USB Stream" input and tried playing music from the UltraRendu (via Roon), something weird happened. For the 1st time ever, Roon started to play the 1st song on an album but just zipped through without making a sound and went from song to song to song all the way through the album and never played a note through the speakers. I switched the zone to play through my Surface speakers (which I had been using as a Roon Remote), and it played fine. Then, I recalled the "UAC2" setting. I checked and by default the XMC-2 was not set to UAC2. I switched that setting, and all works fine now. EDIT: I learned that the issue was NOT the UAC2 setting. Roon did the same thing again w/o any setting change. Some searching on the Roon Community said that re-booting my UltraRendu would fix the problem - and it does. Oddly enough, I have never had the issue when running the UltraRendu via USB out to the LH Labs DAC. I only have the issue when I run the UltraRendu into the XMC-2's USB input (at least...to date...). And, it is repeatable.

From an operation point of view, I had been worried about slow input changes, lock-ups, and audio and/or video dropouts based on early user reports. Knock on wood - so far...no issues at all. "It just works" Many have complained about how long startup takes. I use the lowest power setting instead of video on standby, and for me - it starts quickly enough. And, input changes are as fast or faster than with the XMC-1.

I've not done extensive listening in multi-channel or 2-channel, but so far - it's excellent. I'll be listening to more movies and concert BluRays in the coming week, but so far - I think the sound is quite good in multi-channel (and I've not yet run Dirac...more on that in a moment). I am very impressed with the sound in 2-channel from the USB Stream input. I've listened a little in reference stereo and a little in stereo. For the "stereo" setting, I set up preset 2 to use the fronts as "small" with a crossover of 50 hz and have the sub set as mono. I will have to do a critical listening to see if I can hear any difference between the LH Labs Geek DAC and the XMC-2's DAC's. A short listen today says the XMC-2 is certainly not noticably different than the Geek...that would be impressive. I will do more listening - first in reference stereo - to compare the XMC-2 Dac via USB streaming input vs. the Geek via XLR. I figure that is the cleanest comparison of the two, but that will take some time (and require me to move the USB line from the XMC-2 to the Geek to compare back and forth).

On Dirac, the Dirac Kit arrived even before the XMC-2 did, and once I got the XMC-2 hooked up and had a basic setup - I found the MAC address and sent it to Emotiva. That occurred after Emotiva had closed and even before they were officially open the next day - I got an email confirming they had sent the info to Dirac. I will check tomorrow to see if my Dirac is active. I already have the software installed on the PC that sits by my AV stand and is also my Roon Core. So, more on Dirac later.

Also, I wanted to see "how much do I have invested in Emotiva pre-pro's over time?" I bought a UMC-1 in December 2010 for $699. At that point, the UMC-1 was working quite stable and I used it for 5 years until the XMC-1 came out. I paid ~$1000 for the XMC-1 thanks to using my 40% off card and sold the UMC-1 for ~$400. Counting what I paid for the XMC-2 upgrade from the XMC-1 trade-in, I have a total of ~$2400 invested in Emotiva pre/pro's. And, since 2010, I've had stable, excellent performing units. Comparing that to purchasing a new XMC-2 outright, I have saved about $600 while still having enjoyment of a prepro for 10 years. I think that's very impressive, and for that - I am grateful to Emotiva.

One last point for now - I have not attempted to set up my complicated "use a sub in reference stereo" yet. I wanted to get the basics done first.

Mark - one happy camper...

[klinemj]

I've now had a chance to run Dirac and listen a bit. I'll cut straight to it and say that I like the end result, but the process to get there left a lot to be desired. In the end, it's easy. But, according to a very old saying "everything is easy once you know how to do it". Until then...it can be frustrating/maddening.

I'll break it down on setup, equipment, operability, and results.

Setup

Setup was the most frustrating thing I have encountered in years. In the end, it worked great. But, getting that to happen left a lot to be desired. In retrospect, all of my frustration came down to confusing and incomplete documentation from Emotiva's side. Prior to trying to run Dirac, I read as much as I could - both things directly from Emotiva and on this forum. I watched the videos Emotiva provided. I knew Dirac well after owning it and using it since I bought my XMC-1 (2015?). But, I could not get the XMC-2 to reliably connect to the internet or to enable Dirac. Even if it did, the XMC-2 would say that Dirac was "not enabled" and the Dirac software would not find the XMC-2 even though I could find it on my network.

If you look at the Dirac thread (This one-->CLICK HERE<--) on pages 120-124, you will see I was struggling starting on Dec 14th. I got advice from various users and KeithL, but the advice that really helped was from ttocs. Everyone else's advice was "check this on your network", "your network may have a problem because...", "the Emotiva switch is junk, don't use it", and so on. To the contrary, ttocs said to not start the EDNIB (Mr. Ed from hereon...as in Mr. Ed Nib) until the XMC-2 is powered up and clearly had internet.

That advice goes contrary to what the video Emotiva provided -->CLICK HERE<-- and the document "Dirac_Live_FAQ_v10.pdf" say. Each say to hook it all up and it works. There's no mention of order. In fact, in the FAQ, it says that both the G3P and Mr. Ed must be powered on "after" you connect them to your network. No order is implied. Yet...almost every time I tried to power them up as simultaneously as I could, I could not enable Dirac, may or may not be able to have the XMC-2 connected to my internet, and could not get Dirac to find the XMC-2. ONLY, and I do mean ONLY...as in that's over 10 times in a row...if I follow ttocs advice of powering up the processor first, making sure it had internet connection, and THEN powering up Mr. Ed can I get it to work.

KeithL says that Mr. Ed "should not" have to be started first (page 122 of the link to the Dirac thread), but many have since commented that it's the only way they can get Dirac to enable. Net, my VERY STRONG advice to Emotiva is to update their guidance. To start Mr. Ed AFTER the processor is booted is easy. For users to spend 1-3 days (like I did) to get past this issue is a waste of the users' time and a waste of Lounge posts.

Also, as part of this...one issue is that once a user submits their MAC address to Emotiva to tell Dirac to activate a license for that one, users get an e-mail from Emotiva saying "we did our part, and now Dirac will do theirs but you won't be told it's done but you will 'know' when you run the software". Guess what....the Dirac software doesn't tell you it's done or not. The G3P doesn't say whether it's done or not. So, if you can't enable Dirac, you don't know if the issue is on Dirac's end, Emotiva's end, or something you have not done correctly in setup. More clarity on "how" to know both the Emotiva and Dirac parts are done would really be great - I am not a mind reader.

In the end, it now works reliably - so I am now happy..but with a grudge.

Equipment

We all knew in advance that Mr. Ed was going to be an ordinary R-Pi with special code on the MicroSD card and that the switch was going to be a very basic one. So, I expected that, and I am glad Emotiva found a way to avoid further delays in Dirac with this solution. Given the equipment only needs to be broken out when one wants to run Dirac, that's all fine with me. That said...I had a couple issues. First, in my first attempt to power up the switch, it powered up and showed the expected lights for ports I had connected. Then...all the lights went out. The switch lost power. I fiddled with it a bit and got power back. I don't know if the power cord is "iffy" or the power port on it is. But, it's not the greatest. Second, on both the switch and Mr. Ed, the ethernet cables provided and the ports are a very tight fit. I've never had to feel like I was pressing so hard to get a cable into a port as I have with Mr. Ed and the switch. I didn't try other options, but I suspect the issue is the connectors on the ethernet cables provided. Also, the switch and Mr. Ed are so light, so flimsy that the cables alone will lift them/move them. I just connected them and let them dangle off the front of my AV stand. No big deal, but...don't expect them to stay put. "Stay Ed..stay!!!"

Operability

Once I got through the setup issues, it was pretty easy to run Dirac sweeps. I had a couple issues, with the first being a difference in Dirac between the video Emotiva shot with Hair Nick Mandara showing how to run DIRAC (-->CLICK HERE<--)" and how Dirac works now. In the version in Nick's video, Nick shows that you need to get speaker levels in the "green". And, it's clear what that means. In the new version, there's a shaded band and you need to get levels within that band for each speaker. According to user marcl, there is even newer advice on setting levels which he lays out on Dec. 14th that Dirac provided him:

Dirac tutorials are a bit old and some things have changed. Look at the first post in this thread for some useful info.

Basically .... set mic gain to 100%. Click the test signal for your subwoofer and bring the master gain up until the sub level peaks around -20db. Then test the other speakers and get them around -20db. If any of the other speakers are too quiet, raise the master gain a bit and check the sub to bring it back down to -20db. The number isn't critical ... -25 or -30 is okay. As long as Dirac runs and does not give a clipping error or a low level error it will be fine.

Also, when running Dirac, a message comes up saying that you have to be logged into your Dirac account for your results to be saved or you can't go back to them. And, there's no mention of needing one or not in the Emotiva documentation, by the way. Lounge users say "don't worry about that...results are saved on your computer" It would be nice if Emotiva pointed that out...while it's a Dirac issue, it does not appear to be an issue for Emotiva users, so Emotiva should highlight that.

Lastly on operability, once I finish running Dirac and export filters to the XMC-2, I am able to disable Dirac. But, the XMC-2 seems to reliably lock up and require a restart. I did it via the back switch, but I am told holding down the front power button for 6 seconds will also so it. I am also told by other Lounge members that Emotiva knows of the issue.

Summing up all of the above..

Emotiva would greatly benefit from updating its documentation. I made a very specific recommendation on page 123 of the "Official Dirac Live" thread linked above. The essence of that advice is that the current advice is spread across too many locations...the Dirac Manual, the FAQ document, Hair Nick's video, Damon' video, comments on >124 pages of the thread on Dirac, and Dirac's site. This advice needs to be "distilled" into something "Actionable". Long lectures from Keith on why things "don't work" or "shouldn't work that way" don't really help - nor do postulations from Lounge Members who are not having or have not solved the problems. What is needed is "For best results - do EXACTLY this" and then "If you have this problem, try this specific step...and go in order with first things first"

Results

I will have to come back to this in more detail after another run of sweeps. I had some issues with loud household members that may have interfered with results, as well as not understanding setting levels based on the latest Dirac advice (per the comment on marcl's findings, above). So, I will withhold significant comments on that until later.

But, I will say, it sounded very good as a start. I will do a re-run and play around with different filter settings/different curves/etc. But, it's very good, very clear, very balanced.

[klinemj]

I've now had a chance to listen to the XMC-2 in 2 channel via the USB Stream input and the Balanced Analog Input. I still need to listen to more multichannel but I will reserve comments for that until I run Dirac.

First, here's my setup. I selected 6 different tracks via Roon. Each track (listed below) is one I know well and commonly use for critical listening when I swap out components. Each was fed to my UltraRendu via my intranet. I set up 2 different inputs on the XMC-1. One used the USB Stream input and the other used the Balanced Analog Input, but both were set to used Reference Stereo and use speaker preset 2.

To switch back and forth, I had to move the USB cable from my external DAC (LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity) to the XMC-2 - and vice-versa. Then, I selected the appropriate input on the XMC-2. I have both Hypex Class D monoblocks and a Prima Luna tube amp, and for this - I used the Hypex (and my Maggie 1.7's).

I'll cut to the chase and say I like the sound and operability of the external LH Labs DAC better than the internal DAC of the XMC-2.


But, here's details. Music used was:
1) Miles Davis' "So What" from Kind of Blue
2) Grateful Dead's "Ripple" from American Beauty
3) Linda Ronstadt's "When Will I Be Loved" from Heart Like a Wheel
4) Carole King's "I Feel the Earth Move" from Tapestry
5) James Taylor's "Sweet Baby James" from the album of the same name
6) ZZ Top's "Bus/Jesus" from Tres Hombres

There are portions of each I know very well and have heard weaknesses and strengths from in the past.

In particular, in "Ripple", a little over a minute in, there's a part with Bob, Jerry, and 1 other (Phil?) singing together. The Geek makes them all very clearly audible and distinct. The XMC-2 muddled them up a bit more such that portions were not really heard.

Linda's voice is amazing, but on many systems, her recordings come across muted. In this case, the Geek brings her out front and "3 dimensional" and all the backup singers and various minor instrument sounds are clear and present. With the XMC-2, the recording sounded a lot more "flat" and less "3d". The distinction between the backup singers faded and sounded more like a wall of singers smashed together.

On both ZZ Top and Miles, I felt the XMC-2 sounded a bit more harsh in some of the more intense sections. Miles' horn occasionally sounded more "blaring" and the harmonica a little over a minute in to "Bus/Jesus" didn't sound as real and sounded more over-driven. Also, I've found Carole King's vocals on Tapestry seem pushed back in the recording (less 3d as I noted with Linda) on some systems - and while I didn't detect that with the Geek vs. the XMC-2, the XMC-2 did sound a little more harsh on some of the more intense piano and vocal parts. I'm very used to hearing live piano as my Dad played a grand piano in our home all the time. The Geek sounded more like a good quality live piano. Similarly, Miles' horns had the subtle details I expected without harshness on the Geek.

Overall, I'm hearing more subtle details and less harshness with the Geek than the XMC-2's internal DAC.

In other comments, as I noted in my first posts, the USB stream input seems to throw my UltraRendu and Roon fits. If I start the XMC-2 from a power-down mode and try to play an album, Roon just breezes through the album without playing anything - just goes from track to track quickly and then the album is done. To use the USB input, I have to shut down the UltraRendu and power it back up. If the sound of the USB stream input and the XMC-2's DAC were better than the Geek, this is something I could live with. But...why bother?

On a couple selections, there was an initial stutter or what appears to be missing of a first few fractions of a second with the USB stream input. I have never had this with the Geek (or the DC-1 before that).

I also did notice th USB stream input is noticably louder than the analog from the Geek. I have to back down the level by ~4-5 dB to get the level comparable (it was quite audibly different and my meter confirmed it).

At this point, I now need to compare using the Geek in Reference Stereo vs. other modes. Those who have followed along with me know I was using reference stereo on my XMC-1 with a sub via some tricky wiring made possible by the XMC-1 have both RCA and XLR outputs both live. The XMC-2 does not, and while I did find an even more elaborate wiring setup I could (in theory) use for the XMC-2...I'd like to simplify if I can.

So, that's all for now!

Mark

[ttocs]

Dec 10, 2020 12:00:17 GMT -5 klinemj said:

The only confusion I had on setup (so far) were 2 items. First, I was trying to set my sub as Center Sub taking LFE on "Preset 1", and the LFE option didn't show up. With some advice here to set the left/right sub outputs to mono, suddenly the LFE option showed up for the center sub. "Go figure". The manual could be better in that regard - and for that matter, it doesn't make sense the LFE option would not show up in the first place.

One last point for now - I have not attempted to set up my complicated "use a sub in reference stereo" yet. I wanted to get the basics done first.

Mark - one happy camper...

If you have all Large speakers setup in the menu then LFE will be a choice for the Center Sub because Bass Management is not needed.

When there is any speaker set as Small there must be either Large speakers or Subwoofers to send Bass Management to. If there are no Large speakers, then there must be a Subwoofer to send BM to, and if there is, and that sub is not using the Center Sub output, then LFE will be a choice presented in the menu for the Center Sub.

When the Center Sub is set as LFE, it will not provide any BM. It is only for Low Frequency Effects.

Put another way, if Bass Management is not needed, or is able to be sent to Subs or Large speakers, then LFE will show up in the menu for Center Sub.

So, I've had my system setup with Center Sub:: LFE, and had the BM sent to my Large L&R speakers. That was a huge improvement for all the Small speakers! Now, I'm in the process of finalizing some extra subs specifically for BM which will be connected to the Left & Right Sub outputs. At this point I will have a 3-subwoofer group via miniDSP for LFE, and two 2-subwoofer groups (timed independently) for BM, L&R set as Large, and all other speakers set as Small. I am providing this info just for clarification as to what is possible with these processors.

Hope this helps a little.

[doc1963]

Glad you're loving it. But wait... didn't you get a "Panasonic" UB-420...?

[cawgijoe]

Early Christmas present! Enjoy.

[tchaik]

Dec 10, 2020 12:00:17 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I recently upgraded my XMC-1 to an XMC-2. I'd been holding off for 2 reasons. First, I had no need for 4K or Atmos yet in my theater. Second, I was waiting until Dirac was released and users said the FW was stable. I recently decided to upgrade my TV to 4K (and am thinking about Atmos), and from what I was reading - the FW is basically stable and it appears Dirac is working well other than things users here have reported that Dirac is working on (and of course, the extra cost Dirac bass software).

So, I pulled the plug. Overall, I am extremely happy.

Setup has gone quickly. I now have 5 different inputs set up. I set up 1 each for my Roku Ultra, my (new) LG UB-420 4K BluRay player, my Oppo 105, as well as 2 different ones for me to use for 2-channel. Of the 2-channel ones, I set up one to accept my LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity DAC's XLR outputs and one to take USB input directly from the UltraRendu that normally feeds the Geek.

The only confusion I had on setup (so far) were 2 items. First, I was trying to set my sub as Center Sub taking LFE on "Preset 1", and the LFE option didn't show up. With some advice here to set the left/right sub outputs to mono, suddenly the LFE option showed up for the center sub. "Go figure". The manual could be better in that regard - and for that matter, it doesn't make sense the LFE option would not show up in the first place. Second, when I set up the "USB Stream" input and tried playing music from the UltraRendu (via Roon), something weird happened. For the 1st time ever, Roon started to play the 1st song on an album but just zipped through without making a sound and went from song to song to song all the way through the album and never played a note through the speakers. I switched the zone to play through my Surface speakers (which I had been using as a Roon Remote), and it played fine. Then, I recalled the "UAC2" setting. I checked and by default the XMC-2 was not set to UAC2. I switched that setting, and all works fine now.

From an operation point of view, I had been worried about slow input changes, lock-ups, and audio and/or video dropouts based on early user reports. Knock on wood - so far...no issues at all. "It just works" Many have complained about how long startup takes. I use the lowest power setting instead of video on standby, and for me - it starts quickly enough. And, input changes are as fast or faster than with the XMC-1.

I've not done extensive listening in multi-channel or 2-channel, but so far - it's excellent. I'll be listening to more movies and concert BluRays in the coming week, but so far - I think the sound is quite good in multi-channel (and I've not yet run Dirac...more on that in a moment). I am very impressed with the sound in 2-channel from the USB Stream input. I've listened a little in reference stereo and a little in stereo. For the "stereo" setting, I set up preset 2 to use the fronts as "small" with a crossover of 50 hz and have the sub set as mono. I will have to do a critical listening to see if I can hear any difference between the LH Labs Geek DAC and the XMC-2's DAC's. A short listen today says the XMC-2 is certainly not noticably different than the Geek...that would be impressive. I will do more listening - first in reference stereo - to compare the XMC-2 Dac via USB streaming input vs. the Geek via XLR. I figure that is the cleanest comparison of the two, but that will take some time (and require me to move the USB line from the XMC-2 to the Geek to compare back and forth).

On Dirac, the Dirac Kit arrived even before the XMC-2 did, and once I got the XMC-2 hooked up and had a basic setup - I found the MAC address and sent it to Emotiva. That occurred after Emotiva had closed and even before they were officially open the next day - I got an email confirming they had sent the info to Dirac. I will check tomorrow to see if my Dirac is active. I already have the software installed on the PC that sits by my AV stand and is also my Roon Core. So, more on Dirac later.

Also, I wanted to see "how much do I have invested in Emotiva pre-pro's over time?" I bought a UMC-1 in December 2010 for $699. At that point, the UMC-1 was working quite stable and I used it for 5 years until the XMC-1 came out. I paid ~$1000 for the XMC-1 thanks to using my 40% off card and sold the UMC-1 for ~$400. Counting what I paid for the XMC-2 upgrade from the XMC-1 trade-in, I have a total of ~$2400 invested in Emotiva pre/pro's. And, since 2010, I've had stable, excellent performing units. Comparing that to purchasing a new XMC-2 outright, I have saved about $600 while still having enjoyment of a prepro for 10 years. I think that's very impressive, and for that - I am grateful to Emotiva.



One last point for now - I have not attempted to set up my complicated "use a sub in reference stereo" yet. I wanted to get the basics done first.

Mark - one happy camper...

its all about the sound quality............

[tropicallutefisk]

Dec 10, 2020 13:29:38 GMT -5 tchaik said:

Dec 10, 2020 12:00:17 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I recently upgraded my XMC-1 to an XMC-2. I'd been holding off for 2 reasons. First, I had no need for 4K or Atmos yet in my theater. Second, I was waiting until Dirac was released and users said the FW was stable. I recently decided to upgrade my TV to 4K (and am thinking about Atmos), and from what I was reading - the FW is basically stable and it appears Dirac is working well other than things users here have reported that Dirac is working on (and of course, the extra cost Dirac bass software).

So, I pulled the plug. Overall, I am extremely happy.

Setup has gone quickly. I now have 5 different inputs set up. I set up 1 each for my Roku Ultra, my (new) LG UB-420 4K BluRay player, my Oppo 105, as well as 2 different ones for me to use for 2-channel. Of the 2-channel ones, I set up one to accept my LH Labs Geek Pulse X Infinity DAC's XLR outputs and one to take USB input directly from the UltraRendu that normally feeds the Geek.

The only confusion I had on setup (so far) were 2 items. First, I was trying to set my sub as Center Sub taking LFE on "Preset 1", and the LFE option didn't show up. With some advice here to set the left/right sub outputs to mono, suddenly the LFE option showed up for the center sub. "Go figure". The manual could be better in that regard - and for that matter, it doesn't make sense the LFE option would not show up in the first place. Second, when I set up the "USB Stream" input and tried playing music from the UltraRendu (via Roon), something weird happened. For the 1st time ever, Roon started to play the 1st song on an album but just zipped through without making a sound and went from song to song to song all the way through the album and never played a note through the speakers. I switched the zone to play through my Surface speakers (which I had been using as a Roon Remote), and it played fine. Then, I recalled the "UAC2" setting. I checked and by default the XMC-2 was not set to UAC2. I switched that setting, and all works fine now.

From an operation point of view, I had been worried about slow input changes, lock-ups, and audio and/or video dropouts based on early user reports. Knock on wood - so far...no issues at all. "It just works" Many have complained about how long startup takes. I use the lowest power setting instead of video on standby, and for me - it starts quickly enough. And, input changes are as fast or faster than with the XMC-1.

I've not done extensive listening in multi-channel or 2-channel, but so far - it's excellent. I'll be listening to more movies and concert BluRays in the coming week, but so far - I think the sound is quite good in multi-channel (and I've not yet run Dirac...more on that in a moment). I am very impressed with the sound in 2-channel from the USB Stream input. I've listened a little in reference stereo and a little in stereo. For the "stereo" setting, I set up preset 2 to use the fronts as "small" with a crossover of 50 hz and have the sub set as mono. I will have to do a critical listening to see if I can hear any difference between the LH Labs Geek DAC and the XMC-2's DAC's. A short listen today says the XMC-2 is certainly not noticably different than the Geek...that would be impressive. I will do more listening - first in reference stereo - to compare the XMC-2 Dac via USB streaming input vs. the Geek via XLR. I figure that is the cleanest comparison of the two, but that will take some time (and require me to move the USB line from the XMC-2 to the Geek to compare back and forth).

On Dirac, the Dirac Kit arrived even before the XMC-2 did, and once I got the XMC-2 hooked up and had a basic setup - I found the MAC address and sent it to Emotiva. That occurred after Emotiva had closed and even before they were officially open the next day - I got an email confirming they had sent the info to Dirac. I will check tomorrow to see if my Dirac is active. I already have the software installed on the PC that sits by my AV stand and is also my Roon Core. So, more on Dirac later.

Also, I wanted to see "how much do I have invested in Emotiva pre-pro's over time?" I bought a UMC-1 in December 2010 for $699. At that point, the UMC-1 was working quite stable and I used it for 5 years until the XMC-1 came out. I paid ~$1000 for the XMC-1 thanks to using my 40% off card and sold the UMC-1 for ~$400. Counting what I paid for the XMC-2 upgrade from the XMC-1 trade-in, I have a total of ~$2400 invested in Emotiva pre/pro's. And, since 2010, I've had stable, excellent performing units. Comparing that to purchasing a new XMC-2 outright, I have saved about $600 while still having enjoyment of a prepro for 10 years. I think that's very impressive, and for that - I am grateful to Emotiva.



One last point for now - I have not attempted to set up my complicated "use a sub in reference stereo" yet. I wanted to get the basics done first.

Mark - one happy camper...

its all about the sound quality............

Not if you're married to my wife. Any quirk or malfunction will send her into a rant denouncing all things Home Theater. Therefore stability and ease of use takes on the most important status. Though I swear nothing malfunctions till I'm a thousand miles away on a business trip LOL 

[klinemj]

Dec 10, 2020 13:15:46 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

Glad you're loving it. But wait... didn't you get a "Panasonic" UB-420...?

Oops! Yes, I did...silly me...

Mark

[klinemj]

Dec 10, 2020 13:08:00 GMT -5 ttocs said:

If you have all Large speakers setup in the menu then LFE will be a choice for the Center Sub because Bass Management is not needed.

When there is any speaker set as Small there must be either Large speakers or Subwoofers to send Bass Management to. If there are no Large speakers, then there must be a Subwoofer to send BM to, and if there is, and that sub is not using the Center Sub output, then LFE will be a choice presented in the menu for the Center Sub.

When the Center Sub is set as LFE, it will not provide any BM. It is only for Low Frequency Effects.

Put another way, if Bass Management is not needed, or is able to be sent to Subs or Large speakers, then LFE will show up in the menu for Center Sub.

So, I've had my system setup with Center Sub:: LFE, and had the BM sent to my Large L&R speakers. That was a huge improvement for all the Small speakers! Now, I'm in the process of finalizing some extra subs specifically for BM which will be connected to the Left & Right Sub outputs. At this point I will have a 3-subwoofer group via miniDSP for LFE, and two 2-subwoofer groups (timed independently) for BM, L&R set as Large, and all other speakers set as Small. I am providing this info just for clarification as to what is possible with these processors.

Hope this helps a little.

I think it helped a little, but I'm still confused. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand what "Bass Mgmt" actually is. I understand what LFE is, but I have always thought that "Bass Mgmt" was just controlling crossover frequency for the sub. Thinking back to a demo at Emotiva...Damon was talking about how anything below the x-over frequencies of the "small" speakers gets re-directed elsewhere...is this what "Bass Mgmt" is?

And, more importantly...if I want the sub to handle both LFE and any re-directed bass...what setting should I choose (would "mono" allow that?) and does it matter whether I use the Left, Center, or Right sub output?

Thanks!

Mark (PS - I have just 1 sub...Rythmik F25)

[megash0n]

Dec 10, 2020 15:31:32 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Dec 10, 2020 13:08:00 GMT -5 ttocs said:

If you have all Large speakers setup in the menu then LFE will be a choice for the Center Sub because Bass Management is not needed.

When there is any speaker set as Small there must be either Large speakers or Subwoofers to send Bass Management to. If there are no Large speakers, then there must be a Subwoofer to send BM to, and if there is, and that sub is not using the Center Sub output, then LFE will be a choice presented in the menu for the Center Sub.

When the Center Sub is set as LFE, it will not provide any BM. It is only for Low Frequency Effects.

Put another way, if Bass Management is not needed, or is able to be sent to Subs or Large speakers, then LFE will show up in the menu for Center Sub.

So, I've had my system setup with Center Sub:: LFE, and had the BM sent to my Large L&R speakers. That was a huge improvement for all the Small speakers! Now, I'm in the process of finalizing some extra subs specifically for BM which will be connected to the Left & Right Sub outputs. At this point I will have a 3-subwoofer group via miniDSP for LFE, and two 2-subwoofer groups (timed independently) for BM, L&R set as Large, and all other speakers set as Small. I am providing this info just for clarification as to what is possible with these processors.

Hope this helps a little.

I think it helped a little, but I'm still confused. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand what "Bass Mgmt" actually is. I understand what LFE is, but I have always thought that "Bass Mgmt" was just controlling crossover frequency for the sub. Thinking back to a demo at Emotiva...Damon was talking about how anything below the x-over frequencies of the "small" speakers gets re-directed elsewhere...is this what "Bass Mgmt" is?

And, more importantly...if I want the sub to handle both LFE and any re-directed bass...what setting should I choose (would "mono" allow that?) and does it matter whether I use the Left, Center, or Right sub output?

Thanks!

Mark (PS - I have just 1 sub...Rythmik F25)

yes sir. That's what BM is. And, center channel as mono will provide both for you. Good luck!

[rbk123]

Interesting that your switching is as fast or faster than the -1; I have a feeling it's because you went from projector to TV. My -2, connected to a projector, is almost twice as slow switching inputs (having done some stop watch timings) but I think it's because the -2 takes longer with projectors. I sense the delay being at the very end of the switch getting the projector to project. However it's a non-issue for me. I agree about the startup - I used the -1 in low power mode and boot times seem very similar (have not actually timed that), so I'm used to the wait.

Sound - without Dirac on either the -2 or the -1, I could not tell a difference in 2 channel mode. With movies, the sound in all the channels are clearer, more defined (especially the center channel), and more info in the surrounds. That's with all non-atmos soundtracks: either DD, DTSHD, or TruHD.

I don't think they sent me the Dirac kit, so I need to confirm.

[ttocs]

Dec 10, 2020 15:31:32 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Dec 10, 2020 13:08:00 GMT -5 ttocs said:

If you have all Large speakers setup in the menu then LFE will be a choice for the Center Sub because Bass Management is not needed.

When there is any speaker set as Small there must be either Large speakers or Subwoofers to send Bass Management to. If there are no Large speakers, then there must be a Subwoofer to send BM to, and if there is, and that sub is not using the Center Sub output, then LFE will be a choice presented in the menu for the Center Sub.

When the Center Sub is set as LFE, it will not provide any BM. It is only for Low Frequency Effects.

Put another way, if Bass Management is not needed, or is able to be sent to Subs or Large speakers, then LFE will show up in the menu for Center Sub.

So, I've had my system setup with Center Sub:: LFE, and had the BM sent to my Large L&R speakers. That was a huge improvement for all the Small speakers! Now, I'm in the process of finalizing some extra subs specifically for BM which will be connected to the Left & Right Sub outputs. At this point I will have a 3-subwoofer group via miniDSP for LFE, and two 2-subwoofer groups (timed independently) for BM, L&R set as Large, and all other speakers set as Small. I am providing this info just for clarification as to what is possible with these processors.

Hope this helps a little.

I think it helped a little, but I'm still confused. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand what "Bass Mgmt" actually is. I understand what LFE is, but I have always thought that "Bass Mgmt" was just controlling crossover frequency for the sub. Thinking back to a demo at Emotiva...Damon was talking about how anything below the x-over frequencies of the "small" speakers gets re-directed elsewhere...is this what "Bass Mgmt" is?

And, more importantly...if I want the sub to handle both LFE and any re-directed bass...what setting should I choose (would "mono" allow that?) and does it matter whether I use the Left, Center, or Right sub output?

Thanks!

Mark (PS - I have just 1 sub...Rythmik F25)

Any Subwoofer output set to Mono will provide the bass for all Small speakers. Further, if the Center Sub output is configured as Mono, it too will provide the bass for the Small speakers. LFE will ALSO be present when these settings are used.

The only instance whereby LFE does NOT get directed to the Left/Right Sub outputs is when the Center Sub output is configured as LFE. This means that ALL BASS for ALL Small speakers gets sent to ONLY the Left and Right subwoofer outputs and NO LFE gets sent to the Left and Right outputs. This also means that ONLY LFE gets sent to the Center Sub output and the Center Sub will never be sent any bass for any Small speaker, it's LFE only.


Bass Management is any bass meant for any channel where the speaker is setup as a Small speaker, so Bass Management will send bass below the crossover to the available subwoofers or Large speakers - depending on the specific setup. These processors are VERY versatile in how all of this can be setup!!!!

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to Mono or Dual Mono
Center Sub Output:: Set to Mono
This scenario will send LFE and all bass for Small speakers to all subwoofers.

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to Mono or Dual Mono
Center Sub Output:: Set to LFE
Bass for Small speakers is sent ONLY to Left/Right Subwoofers.
LFE is sent ONLY to Center Sub.

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to None
Center Sub Output:: Set to Mono
This scenario will send LFE and all bass for Small speakers to the Center Sub.

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to None
Center Sub Output:: Set to LFE***
This scenario is only possible when there are Large Front speakers to which Bass Management can send bass for Small speakers, or, only Large speakers are used. If there are Small speakers in the system, something needs to be present to handle the bass below the crossover point.

So. It all boils down to whether there are subwoofers that we want to dedicate to providing ONLY LFE and nothing else. If that's the case, then one must go through the process of deciding what will handle the Bass Management duties. If not, then set every subwoofer in the system to some form of MONO, and this will depend on if only one output is used, two outputs (which ones?), or all three of the original outputs available.

Clear as mud? (A term I've used since grade school.)

[ttocs]

Dec 10, 2020 16:46:19 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Interesting that your switching is as fast or faster than the -1; I have a feeling it's because you went from projector to TV. My -2, connected to a projector, is almost twice as slow switching inputs (having done some stop watch timings) but I think it's because the -2 takes longer with projectors. I sense the delay being at the very end of the switch getting the projector to project. However it's a non-issue for me. I agree about the startup - I used the -1 in low power mode and boot times seem very similar (have not actually timed that), so I'm used to the wait.

Youthman did a video to prove to himself what was causing the slow switching in the HTP-1 in his theater which has a long cable to the projector that caused the switching to be around 11 seconds. When he connected the HTP-1 to his daughter's tv with a short cable the switching was only a few seconds.

[klinemj]

Dec 10, 2020 16:53:01 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Dec 10, 2020 15:31:32 GMT -5 klinemj said:

I think it helped a little, but I'm still confused. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't understand what "Bass Mgmt" actually is. I understand what LFE is, but I have always thought that "Bass Mgmt" was just controlling crossover frequency for the sub. Thinking back to a demo at Emotiva...Damon was talking about how anything below the x-over frequencies of the "small" speakers gets re-directed elsewhere...is this what "Bass Mgmt" is?

And, more importantly...if I want the sub to handle both LFE and any re-directed bass...what setting should I choose (would "mono" allow that?) and does it matter whether I use the Left, Center, or Right sub output?

Thanks!

Mark (PS - I have just 1 sub...Rythmik F25)

Any Subwoofer output set to Mono will provide the bass for all Small speakers. Further, if the Center Sub output is configured as Mono, it too will provide the bass for the Small speakers. LFE will ALSO be present when these settings are used.

The only instance whereby LFE does NOT get directed to the Left/Right Sub outputs is when the Center Sub output is configured as LFE. This means that ALL BASS for ALL Small speakers gets sent to ONLY the Left and Right subwoofer outputs and NO LFE gets sent to the Left and Right outputs. This also means that ONLY LFE gets sent to the Center Sub output and the Center Sub will never be sent any bass for any Small speaker, it's LFE only.


Bass Management is any bass meant for any channel where the speaker is setup as a Small speaker, so Bass Management will send bass below the crossover to the available subwoofers or Large speakers - depending on the specific setup. These processors are VERY versatile in how all of this can be setup!!!!

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to Mono or Dual Mono
Center Sub Output:: Set to Mono
This scenario will send LFE and all bass for Small speakers to all subwoofers.

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to Mono or Dual Mono
Center Sub Output:: Set to LFE
Bass for Small speakers is sent ONLY to Left/Right Subwoofers.
LFE is sent ONLY to Center Sub.

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to None
Center Sub Output:: Set to Mono
This scenario will send LFE and all bass for Small speakers to the Center Sub.

Left/Right Sub Outputs:: Set to None
Center Sub Output:: Set to LFE***
This scenario is only possible when there are Large Front speakers to which Bass Management can send bass for Small speakers, or, only Large speakers are used. If there are Small speakers in the system, something needs to be present to handle the bass below the crossover point.

So. It all boils down to whether there are subwoofers that we want to dedicate to providing ONLY LFE and nothing else. If that's the case, then one must go through the process of deciding what will handle the Bass Management duties. If not, then set every subwoofer in the system to some form of MONO, and this will depend on if only one output is used, two outputs (which ones?), or all three of the original outputs available.

Clear as mud? (A term I've used since grade school.)

That actually helps a lot - and is a LOT clearer than the manual. Maybe you have a career as a technical writer for Emotiva ahead!

Mark

[klinemj]

Dec 10, 2020 16:55:56 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Dec 10, 2020 16:46:19 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Interesting that your switching is as fast or faster than the -1; I have a feeling it's because you went from projector to TV. My -2, connected to a projector, is almost twice as slow switching inputs (having done some stop watch timings) but I think it's because the -2 takes longer with projectors. I sense the delay being at the very end of the switch getting the projector to project. However it's a non-issue for me. I agree about the startup - I used the -1 in low power mode and boot times seem very similar (have not actually timed that), so I'm used to the wait.

Youthman did a video to prove to himself what was causing the slow switching in the HTP-1 in his theater which has a long cable to the projector that caused the switching to be around 11 seconds. When he connected the HTP-1 to his daughter's tv with a short cable the switching was only a few seconds.

Part of my decision to move from PJ to TV was concern over the impact of long runs with 4K. Had I stayed with a PJ, I was planning to move to one of the ethernet-based options - and that just added more cost. I'm glad I made the move I did on the TV as well as the XMC-2!

Mark

[rbk123]

Dec 10, 2020 16:55:56 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Youthman did a video to prove to himself what was causing the slow switching in the HTP-1 in his theater which has a long cable to the projector that caused the switching to be around 11 seconds. When he connected the HTP-1 to his daughter's tv with a short cable the switching was only a few seconds.

That's apples and oranges - TV vs. Projector, not just the cable. I'd wager it was the projector causing the slowness, not the cable as they take some seconds to project once they get the signal. I bet if he put the long cable on the TV it would be just as fast as the short cable on the TV.

[ttocs]

Dec 10, 2020 17:17:59 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

Dec 10, 2020 16:55:56 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Youthman did a video to prove to himself what was causing the slow switching in the HTP-1 in his theater which has a long cable to the projector that caused the switching to be around 11 seconds. When he connected the HTP-1 to his daughter's tv with a short cable the switching was only a few seconds.

That's apples and oranges - TV vs. Projector, not just the cable. I'd wager it was the projector causing the slowness, not the cable as they take some seconds to project once they get the signal. I bet if he put the long cable on the TV it would be just as fast as the short cable on the TV.

What are we wagering? Oreo cookies? ? ?  yum

Yeah, you're probably right. But it sounded good logic when I viewed the video.

[rbk123]

It's an easy guess. Electrons flow at the speed of light, so the time differential to go 2 feet vs. 30 feet is immeasurable.

Good choice of cookie.

[ttocs]

Dec 10, 2020 20:42:03 GMT -5 rbk123 said:

It's an easy guess. Electrons flow at the speed of light, so the time differential to go 2 feet vs. 30 feet is immeasurable.

Good choice of cookie.

I'm speculating that Youthman's thought was that the longer cable was causing extra handshaking errors and causing delays.
Full disclosure: I'm not a spokesperson for Youthman. I just enjoy his enthusiasm.