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Post by gregg357 on Jan 13, 2021 14:22:22 GMT -5
If 2 subs are better than 1, why ever a 16" over two 13"s?
The question is about sound and output for the cost. Not caring about size of boxes or that one may be easier to place than two, etc.
I also am assuming the bass management is done by the source, so that the sub is fed only an LFE signal and needs nothing from the sub amp in terms of "features".
If I had $2k to spend; in what scenario would one 16" sub be better than 2 13"'s, given they were to cost the same.
I'm curious and have never had two subs in a single setup. Looking for opinions. I'm referring to svs sealed subs.
Thanks.
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DYohn
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 18,494
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Post by DYohn on Jan 13, 2021 14:27:57 GMT -5
The best sound in a room if normally created by using multiple subwoofer systems. It really doen't matter how large the woofer is, that only increases (normally) the total sound pressure level at the lowest frequency. So your comparison between one or two is still just a comparison between one or two, and IMO two is always better than one for in-room sound quality. Four is better than two.
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Post by gregg357 on Jan 13, 2021 14:38:52 GMT -5
Sounds like it's a better sound/value proposition, to buy less expensive, albeit less powered subs, in multiples, than "buying up" for the more powerful amp and added configuration capabilities of a larger single sub.
Interesting.
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Post by davidl81 on Jan 13, 2021 18:50:12 GMT -5
In terms of pure SBL in a single "sweet" spot a single 16" would likely produce more than dual 13" subs. So if your goal is for the most impact at one specific spot then you could go one 16". But if you goal is for a system that is better balanced across the room then the dual 13"s would win every time.
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Post by gregg357 on Jan 13, 2021 20:51:38 GMT -5
ok, great pov.
that is how i had it setup once in the past, when i owned a svs sb-13 ultra.
front firing sealed sub placed front and center of room facing prime listening spot.
definitely impactful to listener, but probably unbalanced within the room.
this was a 2.1 channel music only setup.
since downsized and sold that sub. still sad about that.
good input, thx
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Post by IronPigsDigs on Jan 14, 2021 0:30:08 GMT -5
ok, great pov. that is how i had it setup once in the past, when i owned a svs sb-13 ultra. front firing sealed sub placed front and center of room facing prime listening spot. definitely impactful to listener, but probably unbalanced within the room. this was a 2.1 channel music only setup. since downsized and sold that sub. still sad about that. good input, thx POV |
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Post by SteveH on Jan 14, 2021 19:37:50 GMT -5
ok, great pov. that is how i had it setup once in the past, when i owned a svs sb-13 ultra. front firing sealed sub placed front and center of room facing prime listening spot. definitely impactful to listener, but probably unbalanced within the room. this was a 2.1 channel music only setup. since downsized and sold that sub. still sad about that. good input, thx POV POV??? Isn't that a porn category??? |
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Post by gregg357 on Jan 15, 2021 14:03:59 GMT -5
The one that leaves them laughing is the follow up,
"good input, thx"
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Post by leonski on Jan 16, 2021 20:04:01 GMT -5
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Post by 405x5 on Jan 16, 2021 22:25:14 GMT -5
If 2 subs are better than 1, why ever a 16" over two 13"s? The question is about sound and output for the cost. Not caring about size of boxes or that one may be easier to place than two, etc. I also am assuming the bass management is done by the source, so that the sub is fed only an LFE signal and needs nothing from the sub amp in terms of "features". If I had $2k to spend; in what scenario would one 16" sub be better than 2 13"'s, given they were to cost the same. I'm curious and have never had two subs in a single setup. Looking for opinions. I'm referring to svs sealed subs. Thanks. I have one 18 inch outboard subwoofer. Some people MIGHT look at my system and say I’ve got FIVE subwoofers. So, the “answer” to your question is that no one answer is it, there are many ways to get it done, but the main thing is (I think) what have you got without any sub and what makes sense in your own listening space to get LOW from there. My room had challenges in the context of how I wanted to use it furniture wise and that then dictated how I would integrate sub woofing to extend the fine low end performance I was already getting from “ the other four” those being push pull arranged 10 inch woofers contained within the main systems. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 16, 2021 23:36:58 GMT -5
If 2 subs are better than 1, why ever a 16" over two 13"s? The question is about sound and output for the cost. Not caring about size of boxes or that one may be easier to place than two, etc. I also am assuming the bass management is done by the source, so that the sub is fed only an LFE signal and needs nothing from the sub amp in terms of "features". If I had $2k to spend; in what scenario would one 16" sub be better than 2 13"'s, given they were to cost the same. I'm curious and have never had two subs in a single setup. Looking for opinions. I'm referring to svs sealed subs. Thanks. I have one 18 inch outboard subwoofer. Some people MIGHT look at my system and say I’ve got FIVE subwoofers. So, the “answer” to your question is that no one answer is it, there are many ways to get it done, but the main thing is (I think) what have you got without any sub and what makes sense in your own listening space to get LOW from there. My room had challenges in the context of how I wanted to use it furniture wise and that then dictated how I would integrate sub woofing to extend the fine low end performance I was already getting from “ the other four” those being push pull arranged 10 inch woofers contained within the main systems. The principle of 'distributing' multiple subs has been proven both effective and desireable. Wavelength of the longest frequencies can be as much as 40 to 50 feet and will not 'resolve' in a normal listening room. But by proper distribution of multiple subs, the peaks and valleys generated by such low frequency material can be effectively evened out. Only in some rooms can you maybe get lucky. My listening space is not bad with a single properly located sub. but it has 8 walls, none of which are the same length AND some at 45 degree angles to the others as well as a ceiling with a 12 foot peak running the long way while being off center. One location for the sub resulted in my den being like in a 55 galllon drum while moving the sub results in fine, musical bass everywhere. The lowest pipe organ note is 64' and is in 2 instruments. More common are 32' tubes which you may find in European Cathedrals of huge internal dimensions. Hearing such an instrument is life changing. Read the Harmon article. They have some very good reasons and did quite a number of tests to verify. |
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Post by gregg357 on Jan 17, 2021 8:23:15 GMT -5
Leonski,
thx, yes i'm working thru the harmon article.
also, just bought dual emo ultra 10's from the emporium to experiment against my svs sb-12 nsd.
looking into the svs sb-3000, as well.
nothing scientific here, no measuring equip.
i have 4 diff setups (movie den, living room, 2.1 listening room, bed room) will be interesting which subs do best in which room.
new question: do you guys have/use sound panels in your rooms? looking into making some diy's. curious if worth the efforts.
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Post by leonski on Jan 17, 2021 13:12:19 GMT -5
Leonski, thx, yes i'm working thru the harmon article. also, just bought dual emo ultra 10's from the emporium to experiment against my svs sb-12 nsd. looking into the svs sb-3000, as well. nothing scientific here, no measuring equip. i have 4 diff setups (movie den, living room, 2.1 listening room, bed room) will be interesting which subs do best in which room. new question: do you guys have/use sound panels in your rooms? looking into making some diy's. curious if worth the efforts. You are quite an Over Achiever with multiple systems! So the best idea would be 'experiment'. Do you have complete freedom to modify any of your 4 areas? You can DIFFUSE or REFLECT or ABSORB, as a general rule. DIY is On-The-Table for all 3, so if you are interested I may find something. Absorption is easy, needing pretty much a Frame (1x2 wood, perhaps?) and 2' X4' sheets of something like OC703 in 2" or 4" thickness..... Diffusion gets a little weirder so I'll let you explore that option for now with a few Googles..... Have FUN with this. And Negotiating with the Wife for placement of such devices and panels in what are generallly considered 'her' rooms. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 18, 2021 2:11:33 GMT -5
Yes 2 subs are better than one. However, there is such a thing as a superior sub. Some of the more gargantuan super subs in the series are simply more capable, extend lower, and feel like they pressurize the room. For instance, PSA audio has excellent 15 inch subwoofers. And I've heard dual subs in both their 15" sealed and ported configuration (the s15 and the XV15). So I always reccomend dual subs.
But...I heard a single much more expensive Powersound audio S3601. This unit had two 18" drivers in one box. And the thing was all kinds of ridiculous. It got incredibly low and coupled to the room in a way that those two 15" never could. The sound felt significantly faster and less muddy. At that point, I had to give the hat tip to the S3601. Yes, you could tell it was a single sub versus the less localized effect of a dual sub setup. But, the single sub was just superior in that application.
So long story short is that subs aren't always built equal. So a 16 inch sub and a 13 inch sub may not be equal in actual sound quality due to various factors. The cabinets, ports, amps, tuning, etc can all be different.
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Post by leonski on Jan 19, 2021 15:37:19 GMT -5
Yes 2 subs are better than one. However, there is such a thing as a superior sub. Some of the more gargantuan super subs in the series are simply more capable, extend lower, and feel like they pressurize the room. For instance, PSA audio has excellent 15 inch subwoofers. And I've heard dual subs in both their 15" sealed and ported configuration (the s15 and the XV15). So I always reccomend dual subs. But...I heard a single much more expensive Powersound audio S3601. This unit had two 18" drivers in one box. And the thing was all kinds of ridiculous. It got incredibly low and coupled to the room in a way that those two 15" never could. The sound felt significantly faster and less muddy. At that point, I had to give the hat tip to the S3601. Yes, you could tell it was a single sub versus the less localized effect of a dual sub setup. But, the single sub was just superior in that application. So long story short is that subs aren't always built equal. So a 16 inch sub and a 13 inch sub may not be equal in actual sound quality due to various factors. The cabinets, ports, amps, tuning, etc can all be different. Actually, Gar, you have a point.....Better IS better. But what do you need? For wider, more even bass, you simply can't beat multiple subs. When I bought my SINGLE sub, I could have purchased a pair of lesser subs. While lacking ultimate low-bass performance, (good for effects laden movies) The bass in the room would have potentially been more even. Budget busing was not on the table, TOO much. That thing about pressurization? Kind of a red herring. The amount of air in the room remains unchanged, so the pressure is unchanged. But you DO sit in what amounts to a pressure peak where 2 'waves' meet or a pressure NULL, where you may sit in the 'suck out' of 2 waves meeting. Me? Since bass in a movie is an 'extra', and not bad at all, I'll personally take 'musical' over 'more'. My HSU not only produces good bass for a Pipe Organ, but also for standup bass in Jazz recordings. Even guiltar bass, which I don't think goes as low can be very impactful. The LOWET octave of a Bosendoorfer Imperial Grand piano (97 keys, not 88) comes thru loud and clear. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_BösendorferAnd while your proposed 16" and 13" a certainly not equal, it is just possible that the 13" has more of what someone is listening for. Faster? More musical? Good attack? That sort of thing. |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 19, 2021 16:02:13 GMT -5
Yes 2 subs are better than one. However, there is such a thing as a superior sub. Some of the more gargantuan super subs in the series are simply more capable, extend lower, and feel like they pressurize the room. For instance, PSA audio has excellent 15 inch subwoofers. And I've heard dual subs in both their 15" sealed and ported configuration (the s15 and the XV15). So I always reccomend dual subs. But...I heard a single much more expensive Powersound audio S3601. This unit had two 18" drivers in one box. And the thing was all kinds of ridiculous. It got incredibly low and coupled to the room in a way that those two 15" never could. The sound felt significantly faster and less muddy. At that point, I had to give the hat tip to the S3601. Yes, you could tell it was a single sub versus the less localized effect of a dual sub setup. But, the single sub was just superior in that application. So long story short is that subs aren't always built equal. So a 16 inch sub and a 13 inch sub may not be equal in actual sound quality due to various factors. The cabinets, ports, amps, tuning, etc can all be different. Actually, Gar, you have a point.....Better IS better. But what do you need? For wider, more even bass, you simply can't beat multiple subs. When I bought my SINGLE sub, I could have purchased a pair of lesser subs. While lacking ultimate low-bass performance, (good for effects laden movies) The bass in the room would have potentially been more even. Budget busing was not on the table, TOO much. That thing about pressurization? Kind of a red herring. The amount of air in the room remains unchanged, so the pressure is unchanged. But you DO sit in what amounts to a pressure peak where 2 'waves' meet or a pressure NULL, where you may sit in the 'suck out' of 2 waves meeting. Me? Since bass in a movie is an 'extra', and not bad at all, I'll personally take 'musical' over 'more'. My HSU not only produces good bass for a Pipe Organ, but also for standup bass in Jazz recordings. Even guiltar bass, which I don't think goes as low can be very impactful. The LOWET octave of a Bosendoorfer Imperial Grand piano (97 keys, not 88) comes thru loud and clear. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_BösendorferAnd while your proposed 16" and 13" a certainly not equal, it is just possible that the 13" has more of what someone is listening for. Faster? More musical? Good attack? That sort of thing. It depends if a 13 inch does things better than a 16t inch. Like I said unequal may go both ways. I will say that the dual 18 inch subwoofer sounded much faster on microdynamics and had less of a "blurred" sound. Pressurization is important. Basically when there's bass that's supposed to be impactful or fill the room, you don't want to just hear it. You want to hear it everywhere with a mild amount of pressure. It needs to capture your attention (if that's how the recording is meant to sound). It's the difference between a sound that's involving and a sound that's distant. |
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Post by leonski on Jan 19, 2021 20:12:33 GMT -5
Ported? Sealed? Makes a difference. My ported (2x, 1 pluggable) will shake stuff hung on the walls in the entire house. And keep in mind that we are talking 2 different things Movie effects? NOBODY knows what they are supposed to sound like. Loud? Yes. But the rest? Even th system the sound designer used to evolve the effect matters. I can not think offhand of any music using below 16hz or even at the amplitudes needed for some movies. But for music? You probably don't need anything that reaches under maybe 28hz.....flat. One piece of Organ music uses lower extension, but thats the exception. Still and all? Comparing subs simply based on size, is not going to get you anywhere. A top-line 12" or whatever will outperform many larger subs. While the Bag End sub is a monster with InfraSonic respoinse. bagend.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ISUB2-18.pdfYou might even be able to draw a money / goodness graph and get a meaningful output. Unless your room is 'sealed' you aren't going to pressurize. Standing waves WILL give the impression of 'pressure', but with a single sub, I guarantee that you will also have places of 'suckout' where bass response is minimal or non-linear. Which brings us back Full-Circle to Multiple Subs..... |
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Post by gregg357 on Jan 21, 2021 9:27:56 GMT -5
For this question, let's assume multiple subs is the setup:
How similar do the multiples need to be?
I would assume a 12" ported should not be paired with a 10" sealed, but I'm curious how different they could be. I'm also assuming matched models is ideal.
But, how about same driver size with one a 500w amp and the other a 300w?
General, listening only, type question. I'm not an engineer and don't have access to or use measuring equipment.
Reason for question:
I'm on a little sub kick here and have recently bought a pair of Emo Ultra Sub10's, a svs sb-12 nsd, a svs pb-12 nsd, and have a been using an Emo Ultra Sub12. Gonna start mixing and matching.
First impressions: keep emo 10's together in a music setup, pair the svs and Emo 12" sealed subs together, and leave the ported svs for a movie setup.
Thanks.
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Post by garbulky on Jan 21, 2021 10:56:38 GMT -5
I would keep your emo 10 for whatever secondary setup. I would pair all four of your 12 inch subs together for your primary setup. You could even go with a stereo configuration (two subs per channel) if you wanted... You should get some seriously impressive sound  |
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Post by leonski on Jan 21, 2021 13:38:53 GMT -5
For this question, let's assume multiple subs is the setup: How similar do the multiples need to be? I would assume a 12" ported should not be paired with a 10" sealed, but I'm curious how different they could be. I'm also assuming matched models is ideal. But, how about same driver size with one a 500w amp and the other a 300w? General, listening only, type question. I'm not an engineer and don't have access to or use measuring equipment. Reason for question: I'm on a little sub kick here and have recently bought a pair of Emo Ultra Sub10's, a svs sb-12 nsd, a svs pb-12 nsd, and have a been using an Emo Ultra Sub12. Gonna start mixing and matching. First impressions: keep emo 10's together in a music setup, pair the svs and Emo 12" sealed subs together, and leave the ported svs for a movie setup. Thanks. You could STACK the pair of 10s as a 'single' sub. Than distribute the other subs to even out room modes. READ THE ARTICLE I linked form Harman. That will answer questions I never even thought to ask Or answer, for that matter. Don't worry about measureing. It is quite problematic at maybe 100hz to 200hz on down. People MAY prefer a single sub. That's fine. I know I have but ONE. But my room is 'easy' as such things go with 8 asymmetric sides, including a couple walls at a 45 AND the ceiling is peaked, but off center. I was able to adjust my sub fairly quickly. Just a couple trials and maybe a day or so in each position. Current location is very musical and even across the listening area. |
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