Brand New XPA-9 queries

[thomas49]

Hi, please let me know if there is another thread that I should check into.  I just got my brand new XPA-9, and I am wondering what is the first thing I should do in terms of getting the full potential of the amp.  Should I redo an Audyssey calibration (via the Denon X4100W) using 0.0 db as volume or is there a different thing that I need to do?  How about breaking the amp in, is there such a thing or is it necessary at all?  Any recommendations and advise are much appreciated, thank you for your expertise!!

[cawgijoe]

Jan 27, 2021 15:58:49 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

Hi, please let me know if there is another thread that I should check into.  I just got my brand new XPA-9, and I am wondering what is the first thing I should do in terms of getting the full potential of the amp.  Should I redo an Audyssey calibration (via the Denon X4100W) using 0.0 db as volume or is there a different thing that I need to do?  How about breaking the amp in, is there such a thing or is it necessary at all?  Any recommendations and advise are much appreciated, thank you for your expertise!!

It's been awhile since I've used Audessey.

Since you have introduced a new component into your system, go ahead and run Audessey as you would normally.

I would not worry about break in.

Oh....congrats on the new amp!

[thomas49]

Thanks cawgijoe!! It's my first true external amp and I hope it will bring my system to life. Now, in terms of running Audyssey, do I need to get the Master Volume up to reference at all to calibrate?

[doc1963]

Jan 27, 2021 15:58:49 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

Hi, please let me know if there is another thread that I should check into.  I just got my brand new XPA-9, and I am wondering what is the first thing I should do in terms of getting the full potential of the amp.  Should I redo an Audyssey calibration (via the Denon X4100W) using 0.0 db as volume or is there a different thing that I need to do?  How about breaking the amp in, is there such a thing or is it necessary at all?  Any recommendations and advise are much appreciated, thank you for your expertise!!

If you’ve been using the internal amp of your receiver and have just added an external amp, then you absolutely should run Audyssey again.

The gains between the two amplifiers are likely quite different and will have an effect upon your overall output levels. Audyssey will set the gains for you...

[thomas49]

I just ran Audyssey, and the result is somewhat strange. All the speakers trim had been decreased and the whole system sounds low. Before, I turn the volume knob on my Denon to -20dB and it is loud for my room, now I have to crank it to -15dB, -14dB to start hearing a significant effect. The speakers had gone from a -5db to -7db, the Center channel is even at -9dB; this is so weird. I do notice the mids and highs are sharper now. Oh, one more thing, when I turn the volume knob on the Denon (AVR X4100W), I won't hear anything until it reaches at least 35 (not sure what that is in db), so from 0 to 35 there is no sound coming through, does this sound normal? Your thoughts are appreciated, thank you!!

[cawgijoe]

Jan 27, 2021 22:19:34 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

I just ran Audyssey, and the result is somewhat strange. All the speakers trim had been decreased and the whole system sounds low. Before, I turn the volume knob on my Denon to -20dB and it is loud for my room, now I have to crank it to -15dB, -14dB to start hearing a significant effect. The speakers had gone from a -5db to -7db, the Center channel is even at -9dB; this is so weird. I do notice the mids and highs are sharper now. Oh, one more thing, when I turn the volume knob on the Denon (AVR X4100W), I won't hear anything until it reaches at least 35 (not sure what that is in db), so from 0 to 35 there is no sound coming through, does this sound normal? Your thoughts are appreciated, thank you!!

First off please detail your system:

1) How many speakers? Subs?
2) Have you set the main front speakers to Small? This is the "normal" way of doing it so that low frequency sounds are sent to the sub(s)
3) What are the brands of the speakers you are using?

4) I believe this receiver requires a minimum number of mic measurements, not sure what that is....I think eight is what it will do....did you do that at the recommended distance apart?

The more information you can provide about the system and room will help those who can comment.

Make sure the room is as quiet as possible. make sure the mic has a clear site to each speaker. No obstructions including you.

Note: on my previous Denon and Pioneer Elite receivers, I had to tweak the center channel up a few Db to be able to hear the dialog clearly after running the room correction program.

[thomas49]

1) How many speakers? Subs?
    I have 7 floor speakers:  Fronts  Klipsch R-28F , Center Klipsch RC-3 , Surrounds KlipscSF-1,   Surround Backs Pioneer S-D99

    4 Height Speakers  Klipsch CDT-3650C  II

    2 Subwoofers :  Klipsch R-12SW  and Klipsch KSW-12


2) Have you set the main front speakers to Small? This is the "normal" way of doing it so that low frequency sounds are sent to the sub(s)
    All speakers are set to Small


3) What are the brands of the speakers you are using?  See #1


4) I believe this receiver requires a minimum number of mic measurements, not sure what that is....I think eight is what it will do....did you do that at the recommended distance apart?

    I followed the Audyssey set up routine and tested at all 8 positions within 2 feet of position 1.  The room was all quiet, room size is around 18' wide by 22' deep by 9' high, although left side of the room is open (no wall running down the left side).

The Front, Center, and Surround Back speakers along with the 4 Heights are connected to the XPA-9 via Denon Pre Outs, and the Denon is powering the pair of Surrounds and processing the two Subwoofers.  The Denon can only process 9 speakers in total, therefore, I can only have either 5.2.4 or 7.2.2 setup.  I was using the Amp Assignment of 7.2.2 during the Audyssey calibration.  At the end, everything sounds really low, I have to crank the volume to get a good level of sound.  I used to listen at a volume of 60 (around -25dB) and now I have to crank it to beyond 65 and it still doesn't reach the same level as it was in 60.

I didn't use any Sound Analyzer to test every speaker level after the calibration for I don't have a SPL meter.

Anyway, please let me know if you need anything else, and all your assistance is much appreciated.  Thank you!!

[doc1963]

Jan 27, 2021 22:19:34 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

I just ran Audyssey, and the result is somewhat strange. All the speakers trim had been decreased and the whole system sounds low. Before, I turn the volume knob on my Denon to -20dB and it is loud for my room, now I have to crank it to -15dB, -14dB to start hearing a significant effect. The speakers had gone from a -5db to -7db, the Center channel is even at -9dB; this is so weird. I do notice the mids and highs are sharper now. Oh, one more thing, when I turn the volume knob on the Denon (AVR X4100W), I won't hear anything until it reaches at least 35 (not sure what that is in db), so from 0 to 35 there is no sound coming through, does this sound normal? Your thoughts are appreciated, thank you!!

Audyssey’s goal is to establish 75db of actual "in room" SPL at the microphone's measurement position using the 0db reference point on your volume control. It does this automatically without you needing to touch the volume control prior to the setup process. Your first measurement should always be taken at the main listening position (MLP) with Audyssey's microphone pointed at the ceiling and with nothing surrounding (or otherwise impeding) the microphone itself.

There are many variables at play here, but adding a more powerful amp would certainly cause a decrease in the internal gain required from the preamp section of your receiver to achieve the same 75db SPL at the "0db reference point" that Audyssey is striving to achieve. There’s nothing odd here and it is quite normal.

What your volume control now displays versus what it did display when using the internal amp is irrelevant. You’re using a new amp with a different gain structure. Some fluctuation is normal and doesn't indicate that something is wrong. It's just "different".

You can verify Audyssey’s results by using a traditional SPL meter (C weighted) and while playing an internal test tone and slowly ramping up your volume control to “0 db”. Now, if the meter reads somewhere close to 75db on each channel tested, then Audyssey has done its job. You can always fine tune the output levels after the fact by tweaking the gain setting (up or down) for each channel if it’s not where it should be.

But in reading what you posted, I’m confused about which "volume” scale you’re using on your receiver. Are you using the “relative” scale (-79.5 to 18db) or the “absolute” scale (0 to 98)…? The most accurate and intuitive scale would be “relative” (the one that displays decibels with 0db being your “reference” point).

[cawgijoe]

I have an old Radio Shack SPL meter that works great.

I believe there is an SPL meter app for your cell phone. I've never used it, but others have and I think it works well.

[thomas49]

doc1963

Thanks for the input. I am going to see if I can borrow a SPL meter and test things out. Sorry to have cause a confusion with my scale inputs, when I said 35 or 0 to 35, it was the absolute scale.

So, if I ramp up the test tone to 0dB, that's pretty loud, should I do the same test for the subwoofers?

[doc1963]

Jan 28, 2021 12:37:39 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

doc1963

Thanks for the input. I am going to see if I can borrow a SPL meter and test things out. Sorry to have cause a confusion with my scale inputs, when I said 35 or 0 to 35, it was the absolute scale.

So, if I ramp up the test tone to 0dB, that's pretty loud, should I do the same test for the subwoofers?

The first thing I would do is go into the settings for your receiver and change the volume scale over to relative (-79.5 to 18) so that you know exactly where the 0db reference point is located. As you approach 0db on the volume scale, it should get pretty freaking loud. Personally, I find even -15db (notice the "negative" symbol) in my room to be overbearing at times.

If you can get loud at those levels, I wouldn't worry about it. It's more important to verify that each channel, including your subwoofers (although some prefer to run the subwoofer a few decibels "hot"), are playing at the same levels across the board.

Typically, Audyssey will do a good job at achieving this and most wouldn't worry about it further. But my personal attitude is "trust, but verify" and the only way you can do this is by obtaining a "trustworthy" sound level meter and running the levels test. However, you don't need to crank it up to test the "balance" between the channels. Just pick an adequate volume and cycle through the channels to make sure they're all playing at very close to the same level. If so, you're done...

[cawgijoe]

Jan 28, 2021 13:05:07 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

Jan 28, 2021 12:37:39 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

doc1963

Thanks for the input. I am going to see if I can borrow a SPL meter and test things out. Sorry to have cause a confusion with my scale inputs, when I said 35 or 0 to 35, it was the absolute scale.

So, if I ramp up the test tone to 0dB, that's pretty loud, should I do the same test for the subwoofers?

The first thing I would do is go into the settings for your receiver and change the volume scale over to relative (-79.5 to 18) so that you know exactly where the 0db reference point is located. As you approach 0db on the volume scale, it should get pretty freaking loud. Personally, I find even -15db (notice the "negative" symbol) in my room to be overbearing at times.

If you can get loud at those levels, I wouldn't worry about it. It's more important to verify that each channel, including your subwoofers (although some prefer to run the subwoofer a few decibels "hot"), are playing at the same levels across the board.

Typically, Audyssey will do a good job at achieving this and most wouldn't worry about it further. But my personal attitude is "trust, but verify" and the only way you can do this is by obtaining a "trustworthy" sound level meter and running the levels test. However, you don't need to crank it up to test the "balance" between the channels. Just pick an adequate volume and cycle through the channels to make sure they're all playing at very close to the same level. If so, you're done...

I love the way you explain things....you must be or have been a teacher or instructor of some sort....

[doc1963]

Jan 28, 2021 13:10:56 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Jan 28, 2021 13:05:07 GMT -5 doc1963 said:

The first thing I would do is go into the settings for your receiver and change the volume scale over to relative (-79.5 to 18) so that you know exactly where the 0db reference point is located. As you approach 0db on the volume scale, it should get pretty freaking loud. Personally, I find even -15db (notice the "negative" symbol) in my room to be overbearing at times.

If you can get loud at those levels, I wouldn't worry about it. It's more important to verify that each channel, including your subwoofers (although some prefer to run the subwoofer a few decibels "hot"), are playing at the same levels across the board.

Typically, Audyssey will do a good job at achieving this and most wouldn't worry about it further. But my personal attitude is "trust, but verify" and the only way you can do this is by obtaining a "trustworthy" sound level meter and running the levels test. However, you don't need to crank it up to test the "balance" between the channels. Just pick an adequate volume and cycle through the channels to make sure they're all playing at very close to the same level. If so, you're done...

I love the way you explain things....you must be or have been a teacher or instructor of some sort....

Nah, just "life experience" and the willingness to share where I can. But on the other hand, I've raised two sons and a daughter who, combined, have given me six grandchildren. So, yes, maybe...

[thomas49]

Doc, thanks for the advice again. I will get back to you once I am able to test the speakers' outputs. But, just to understand more, I can still adjust the Level of each speaker using 0db as a guideline, or whichever dB level I am comfortable with (let it be -15, -10, or 0), as long as each speaker and sub feed me the same or close to same dB level in the SPL meter read out, then I am good, correct?

The XPA-9 doesn't necessary provide a "louder" environment, it just provides a mean to reach higher volume or to produce better quality output with plenty of headroom to ensure I won't distort the reproduction or damage the speakers. How loud I want to listen is all up to me (may it be more bass, less mid tone, sharper high tones, etc) by using the Test Tone parameters in the Denon software to adjust them. Am I correct with these statements?? Please advise!

[cawgijoe]

thomas49....ideally each speaker as Doc has mentioned "should" be matched at the 75db SPL goal at the mic. 75db can be quite loud, so if it's a bit less, that's ok as long as they "match". My experience has been that in the real world, when watching content, especially movies, the sound would be just right, but the center channel voices would be on the low side....simply turning up the volume would make the surround sound too loud for me. I could hear the voices better, but then the explosions would knock me out of my seat! Increasing the center channel by a few db solved that problem. The center is then boosted, voices are easier to hear, and that worked well for me.

The XPA-9 is a much better amplifier than what's in the Denon. It will give you more headroom. Better quality sound. It won't have to work as hard as the Denon to do that. It's a big improvement that you will notice. The sound will be "fuller".

As to adjusting the Test Tones....that of course if up to you, however I always listen to everything "flat". I don't add any extra bass, treble, mids, etc. To me that just changes the sound and I want to hear what the recording was meant to reproduce. But again, that's personal preference.

I hope I didn't misunderstand what you were asking.

[doc1963]

Jan 28, 2021 15:35:28 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

Doc, thanks for the advice again. I will get back to you once I am able to test the speakers' outputs. But, just to understand more, I can still adjust the Level of each speaker using 0db as a guideline, or whichever dB level I am comfortable with (let it be -15, -10, or 0), as long as each speaker and sub feed me the same or close to same dB level in the SPL meter read out, then I am good, correct?

Yes... that's correct. You don't necessarily need to set the master volume at 0db (which might be pretty uncomfortable) to test the levels for parity between them. If by setting the volume control at -15, for example, gives you 60db from your front left speaker, then by cycling through all of your remaining speakers should also reach 60db (or thereabout) when measured from the MLP.

Jan 28, 2021 15:35:28 GMT -5 thomas49 said:

The XPA-9 doesn't necessary provide a "louder" environment, it just provides a mean to reach higher volume or to produce better quality output with plenty of headroom to ensure I won't distort the reproduction or damage the speakers. How loud I want to listen is all up to me (may it be more bass, less mid tone, sharper high tones, etc) by using the Test Tone parameters in the Denon software to adjust them. Am I correct with these statements?? Please advise!

That's also correct. Amplifier power and perceived "loudness" work under the rule of doubles. You would have to double your current amplifiers power to gain an additional 3db in perceived volume (or "loudness"). But in the big scheme of things, 3db isn't all that much.

For example, 125 watts would need to double to 250 watts. 250 watts would need to double to 500 watts and so on. 125 watts > 250 watts would yield a 3db gain in overall volume, but 125 watts > 500 watts would yield a 6db gain in overall volume. 6 decibels would be very noticeable.

What the XPA-9 will give you is "honest" power across all nine channels with all channels driven. Not the 125 watts per channel, but with only "two" channels driven, as your receiver is rated for. With all channels driven, the rated output power of your receiver drops considerably.

So rest assured, you have all the power you need to listen at uncomfortable levels with room to spare and without a huge risk of driving it into clipping. Keep the individual channel gains (in your receivers "level" settings) at or below 0db (where Audyssey would keep them) and keep the volume control at a reasonable level and you should be good to go...

[thomas49]

Doc, thank you for your reply, I think I am on the right track!

I went and redid another Audyssey calibration, the end result was pretty much the same as yesterday's.  But this time, I used a Sound Analyzer app (not even calibrated, just a downloadable app suggested by a friend), set the Test Tone at -15db, which works out to around 75dB on my Fronts and Center, went around and tweaked all the other speakers the same, except the subs.  The subs I set them at 65dB knowing that one of them, the KSW-12, won't be able to hack it, and it was night and day compared to yesterday's result.  I was able to listen to Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation, during the motorbike chase scene, every single engine rev and brake, and they came out loud, clear, and sharp.  I did have to eventually take down the level of my R-12SW sub by one dB for it was making the occasional strange pop sound. not sure if it was bottoming out a bit or what, but after dropping 1 dB it was fine.  Yeah, at the end, most of the speakers are at -3.5dB and the subs were -4.5 and -5.5dB.  Playing a movie at -22dB was exhilarating !!

Thank you and cawgijoe for your precious advices and your willingness to help!!  I guess the lesson here is that don't trust Audyssey all the way!

Cheers!!

Now, I can't wait until my new sub gets here, then I can really do some chest pounding!!

[creimes]

Since my first purchase of Emotiva UPA-1 amps back in 2010 I have never looked back at having my system powered by an AVR, I found my system to perform much better on dedicated amplifiers and I'm separates all the way now haha Congrats on the XPA-9.

Chad

[jra]

Thanks Doc, just want to say I learned something from reading this thread ! Thanks so much for participating and helping newbies !

[gus4emo]

Jan 28, 2021 12:32:22 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

I have an old Radio Shack SPL meter that works great.

I believe there is an SPL meter app for your cell phone. I've never used it, but others have and I think it works well.

My Radio Shack SPL meter is old too, still working perfectly, and love it.