Chris
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Post by Chris on Feb 19, 2021 9:41:36 GMT -5
This is a weird, but I think repeatable bug I have observed.
When I watch my OTA channels using the HDHomeRun App on the Nvida TV directly connected to the XMC-2, I can regularly cause the XMC-2 to completely stop outputting sound. Even if I switch to another input (e.g. Fire TV, etc.) the XMC-2 remains silent. Only after a complete hard reboot of the XMC-2 can I get sound to return.
This may be an edge case, but I can't imagine what signal being fed into the XMC-2 could completely shut off the XMC-2 output?
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Post by doc1963 on Feb 19, 2021 9:58:11 GMT -5
This is a weird, but I think repeatable bug I have observed. When I watch my OTA channels using the HDHomeRun App on the Nvida TV directly connected to the SMC-2, I can regularly cause the XMC-2 to completely stop outputting sound. Even if I switch to another input (e.g. Fire TV, etc.) the XMC-2 remains silent. Only after a complete hard reboot of the XMC-2 can I get sound to return. This may be an edge case, but I can't imagine what signal being fed into the XMC-2 could completely shut off the XMC-2 output? Is it just that particular app or any app used on your Shield...? I have an HDHomerun Quatro, but use the Channels app on my Shield. I've encountered no instances of lost audio when using any app on my Shield with my RMC-1L. However, it is definitely odd that you do not regain audio even when switching to another input... Just a though here, but try a backup settings > factory reset > 5 minute cold shutdown > power up > restore settings. Maybe that might help.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 19, 2021 10:08:00 GMT -5
I can make a pretty good guess what's happening...
Certain types of invalid, corrupt, or "unfriendly" digital audio signals can cause our DSP processor to lock up... This can happen, for example, if the source doesn't switch "cleanly" between songs or tracks... At some point, and some level, the app does the digital equivalent of "yanking out the plug" rather than stopping the signal in an orderly fashion.
So, when it switches, it occasionally sends out a few corrupted data packets....
And, in certain situations, this may cause the DSP to become so confused that it simply stops working.
This is far more likely to occur with certain devices, certain sources, certain apps, and certain types of connections...
Depending on exactly how this happens, it can cause the controls to start responding sluggishly, or it can simply cause the audio to stop...
And, while sometimes the processor will recover on its own, often it will require a hard reboot to enable the audio DSP to successfully restart.
We have been working all along to minimize how much this affects the normal operation of our DSP... but it still occasionally occurs.
This is a weird, but I think repeatable bug I have observed. When I watch my OTA channels using the HDHomeRun App on the Nvida TV directly connected to the SMC-2, I can regularly cause the XMC-2 to completely stop outputting sound. Even if I switch to another input (e.g. Fire TV, etc.) the XMC-2 remains silent. Only after a complete hard reboot of the XMC-2 can I get sound to return. This may be an edge case, but I can't imagine what signal being fed into the XMC-2 could completely shut off the XMC-2 output?
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russb
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Post by russb on Mar 1, 2021 6:49:22 GMT -5
This sort of thing happens pretty reliably when watching Hulu (with ads) on a Roku box. Coming back from the ad, the XMC2 stops outputting sound and only a hard reboot brings it back for any input. Happens so reliably that Hulu-via-Roku is unusable with the XMC.
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Post by Casey Leedom on Mar 1, 2021 10:46:12 GMT -5
As a software engineer who's had to work around any number of hardware bugs like this, I can say that flakey, non-robust hardware truly sucks. If the problem is along the lines of what KeithL outlined, this may need a software monitor thread on the adjacent processor which checks on the responsiveness of the DSP periodically and, if necessary reset it. Casey
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Mar 23, 2021 9:40:59 GMT -5
It happened again last night. I was watching Debris on NBC via OTA with the HDHomeRun App. During each commercial break the sound switches rapidly between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 sometimes as much as 6 times in a commercial break. After several breaks of this behaviour, the XMC-2 locked up and all sound stopped. BTW, the XMC-2 is really slow by taking more than a second to switch.
The only way to fix is to do a hard reboot.
I think this is a real bug and I wish it could be addressed in a future firmware update.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 23, 2021 9:55:16 GMT -5
I have not seen this happen yet. I don't use the HDHomerun App....I do use the AppleTV 4K, Directv, and OTA via Winegard rooftop antenna. I do see switching between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 quite a bit depending what channel I'm watching between commercials and the current program. The sound will stop and then come back...could take a second, but it always comes back.
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Post by doc1963 on Mar 23, 2021 13:44:32 GMT -5
It happened again last night. I was watching Debris on NBC via OTA with the HDHomeRun App. During each commercial break the sound switches rapidly between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 sometimes as much as 6 times in a commercial break. After several breaks of this behaviour, the XMC-2 locked up and all sound stopped. BTW, the XMC-2 is really slow by taking more than a second to switch. The only way to fix is to do a hard reboot. I think this is a real bug and I wish it could be addressed in a future firmware update. I have not seen this happen yet. I don't use the HDHomerun App....I do use the AppleTV 4K, Directv, and OTA via Winegard rooftop antenna. I do see switching between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 quite a bit depending what channel I'm watching between commercials and the current program. The sound will stop and then come back...could take a second, but it always comes back. Agreed... I own a HDHomerun Quatro, but use the Channels app, and don't experience this behavior. I also use the Quatro to view live TV via Plex and don't experience this using Plex either. Whether using these same apps on my Shield or ATV4K, the results are the same... no issue. But unlike Chris, I'm not using the HDHomerun app.
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Mar 24, 2021 13:16:09 GMT -5
If anyone from Emotiva is watching this thread, I would be interested to know if they think this problem is an issue with the HDHomeRun App? If there are any specifics, I could present them to the HDHomeRun developers. They are usually very responsive if given good information.
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Mar 24, 2021 13:19:27 GMT -5
Also, can anyone explain to me why OTA channels switch between DD 5.1 and 2.0 at all. When I had Fios, all the channels just used DD 5.1 even if they were just 2 channel. Why doesn't OTA do this? Will ATSC 3.0 change this behavior?
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jenix
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Post by jenix on Mar 24, 2021 13:36:13 GMT -5
Also, can anyone explain to me why OTA channels switch between DD 5.1 and 2.0 at all. When I had Fios, all the channels just used DD 5.1 even if they were just 2 channel. Why doesn't OTA do this? Will ATSC 3.0 change this behavior? Cable providers such as FIOS encode each channel to push the signal into their digital Qam. In this process the audio can be mapped to any format their encoders supports (DD5.1). OTA broadcast often shift from 5.1 to 2.0 as content changes, such as some commercial blocks. So FIOS was masking these changes from you while OTA does not.
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Mar 24, 2021 19:05:04 GMT -5
It happened again last night. I was watching Debris on NBC via OTA with the HDHomeRun App. During each commercial break the sound switches rapidly between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 sometimes as much as 6 times in a commercial break. After several breaks of this behaviour, the XMC-2 locked up and all sound stopped. BTW, the XMC-2 is really slow by taking more than a second to switch. The only way to fix is to do a hard reboot. I think this is a real bug and I wish it could be addressed in a future firmware update. I just watched this exact episode that I recorded via HDHomeRun DVR on my Marantz 1609 Receiver and it handles the 5.1 to 2.0 switches much more gracefully. The delay in switching is an order of magnitude faster than the XMC-2. I think Emotiva has some work to do here.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Mar 24, 2021 19:32:46 GMT -5
Chris.....have you reported this to Emotiva? Don’t assume they will check this out because of this thread.
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 24, 2021 20:31:53 GMT -5
It happened again last night. I was watching Debris on NBC via OTA with the HDHomeRun App. During each commercial break the sound switches rapidly between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 sometimes as much as 6 times in a commercial break. After several breaks of this behaviour, the XMC-2 locked up and all sound stopped. BTW, the XMC-2 is really slow by taking more than a second to switch. The only way to fix is to do a hard reboot. I think this is a real bug and I wish it could be addressed in a future firmware update. I just watched this exact episode that I recorded via HDHomeRun DVR on my Marantz 1609 Receiver and it handles the 5.1 to 2.0 switches much more gracefully. The delay in switching is an order of magnitude faster than the XMC-2. I think Emotiva has some work to do here.Have you considered setting the 2.0 format to a multi channel setting in the processor?
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Post by cwt on Mar 25, 2021 2:01:55 GMT -5
.Have you considered setting the 2.0 format to a multi channel setting in the processor? [/quote] Thats a good workaround if you dont consider it a big deal going with a dsp mode rather than true discrete dd 5.1 ; its something thats tolerable to some so hope its sorted for those who want the real thing The time passed since these dd switching drop outs was 1st reported doesnt exactly inspire confidence.. btw ;I wonder if theres a new replacement for the mc 700 around the corner ? seriously looking for a replacement for my yammie cxa5100 thats as reliable ; anthem are a bit sketchy too so looking upmarket
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Post by doc1963 on Mar 25, 2021 4:02:08 GMT -5
It happened again last night. I was watching Debris on NBC via OTA with the HDHomeRun App. During each commercial break the sound switches rapidly between DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 sometimes as much as 6 times in a commercial break. After several breaks of this behaviour, the XMC-2 locked up and all sound stopped. BTW, the XMC-2 is really slow by taking more than a second to switch. The only way to fix is to do a hard reboot. I think this is a real bug and I wish it could be addressed in a future firmware update. I just watched this exact episode that I recorded via HDHomeRun DVR on my Marantz 1609 Receiver and it handles the 5.1 to 2.0 switches much more gracefully. The delay in switching is an order of magnitude faster than the XMC-2. I think Emotiva has some work to do here. I downloaded the HDHomerun app on my Nvidia Shield and can now confirm the same issue that you’re experiencing. However, I can also reconfirm that I do not seem to get the same behavior when using the Channels or Plex app even though the signal is sourced from the same Quattro tuner. Although I’ll never use this app, I’ll investigate more later to see what I can come up with. Regardless, I’m not holding my breath that Emotiva will ever be able to attain the same level of “gracefulness” that you would get from a Marantz. When it comes to signal detection and DSP mode switching speed, D&M's A/V products are second to none.
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Post by wizardofoz on Mar 25, 2021 4:30:11 GMT -5
This is happening to me too...but worst thing is the processor is in hot standby - ie just running in HDMI passthru and it still gets audio dropped of...changing inputs etc doesn't help - only power switch at the rear. IIRC it was also on Hulu when ads came on streaming via using Amazon FireTV Stick 4K. Wife is understandably pissed off happening 3 x in one program.
And the network ethernet connected hang within a day is also still there - "rethink high end" is really starting to come across as maybe rethink on the whole emotiva processor solution...Ive been a long time supporter but seriously this should not be a thing now.
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Post by doc1963 on Mar 26, 2021 9:48:29 GMT -5
Chris, I've invested several hours between last night and early this morning investigating this issue which I can now replicate using the HDHomerun app that I’ve freshly downloaded and installed on my Nvidia Shield Pro. Here’s what I have found… After isolating a local channel that routinely passes all commercials “as is”, but also broadcasts their own content (local news) as DD 2.0, I can easily replicate the behavior you're experiencing. While there is a setting within the app that, if changed, will decode DD internally and pass it along as PCM, it does not change the result. Furthermore, changing the default “2.0” and “ 5.1” input settings of my RMC-1L to share the same specific decoder did nothing to improve the outcome. Changing any of the aforementioned parameters resulted in the same length of muting between signal changes going from 2.0 to 5.1 and vice versa. Looking into the Shield itself for a possible solution, there is an audio setting that, if enabled, will internally upmix “stereo” to 5.1. While enabling this did resolve the matter of avoiding a mode change within the RMC-1L itself (as it’s always receiving 5.1 from the source device), it did not vastly improve upon the “mute” timing between the mode breaks within the OTA programming. So, it appears that the internals of the Shield itself also struggles with the type of audio streaming originating from this app. In contrast, neither “ Channels” or “ Plex” suffers from this issue. I routinely flipped back and forth between both of those two apps and could view the same OTA channel without experiencing any issues whatsoever. It is only the HDHomerun app that causes this behavior. It is my opinion that both Channels and Plex have deployed the same practices that are used by many rebroadcasters. To avoid this particular issue, they “force" all of the incoming audio into a single DD 5.1 container before transmission. Apparently, the HDHomerun app does not do this within the AndroidTV app. Read on... It is also interesting to note that after downloading the HDHomerun app to my AppleTV 4K and viewing the same OTA channel, the audio played back is perfectly fluid. The HDHomerun app written for the ATV4K platform consistently sends PCM 5.1 to the RMC-1L. Considering that the ATV4K could equally support and send PCM 2.0, there's apparently a big difference in how the app is written between the two platforms. So, to sum it up, while we would all like for the Emotiva G3 processors to switch decoding modes a bit faster, and while the DSP certainly shouldn’t “lock up” and become unresponsive, this isn't a “bug” or something that Emotiva can wholly fix. What they can do (and are doing) is continue to tweak the lock-on timing to reduce the residual mute when the audio source changes and to figure out why the DSP occasionally crashes as a result (which I believe they are also doing). The "real" root of the problem lies within the audio stream presented from the app itself (which is coming from the local broadcaster). Short of a standardized broadcast solution were 5.1 is mandatory, it is up to the app developers to address the potential issues that this can cause when left unmodified. Apparently, Channels and Plex have already done this whereas HDHomerun has not (or at least hasn't on the AndroidTV platform). If you truly want to fix the issue and have some peace of mind while enjoying your XMC-2, you’ll have to either change the OTA app you’re using our use that same HDHomerun app on an AppleTV. I know you’ve said that the switching on your Marantz receiver is “ an order of magnitude faster”, but without pulling my Marantz AV8805 out of the storage closet to compare, I’d be willing to bet that, while faster, it isn’t “ perfect”. By simply changing the app, or using the same app on a different platform, you will achieve the perfection you’re looking for. That much I can vouch for. Hope this helps...
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Post by adaboy on Mar 27, 2021 11:40:20 GMT -5
Chris, I've invested several hours between last night and early this morning investigating this issue which I can now replicate using the HDHomerun app that I’ve freshly downloaded and installed on my Nvidia Shield Pro. Here’s what I have found… After isolating a local channel that routinely passes all commercials “as is”, but also broadcasts their own content (local news) as DD 2.0, I can easily replicate the behavior you're experiencing. While there is a setting within the app that, if changed, will decode DD internally and pass it along as PCM, it does not change the result. Furthermore, changing the default “2.0” and “ 5.1” input settings of my RMC-1L to share the same specific decoder did nothing to improve the outcome. Changing any of the aforementioned parameters resulted in the same length of muting between signal changes going from 2.0 to 5.1 and vice versa. Looking into the Shield itself for a possible solution, there is an audio setting that, if enabled, will internally upmix “stereo” to 5.1. While enabling this did resolve the matter of avoiding a mode change within the RMC-1L itself (as it’s always receiving 5.1 from the source device), it did not vastly improve upon the “mute” timing between the mode breaks within the OTA programming. So, it appears that the internals of the Shield itself also struggles with the type of audio streaming originating from this app. In contrast, neither “ Channels” or “ Plex” suffers from this issue. I routinely flipped back and forth between both of those two apps and could view the same OTA channel without experiencing any issues whatsoever. It is only the HDHomerun app that causes this behavior. It is my opinion that both Channels and Plex have deployed the same practices that are used by many rebroadcasters. To avoid this particular issue, they “force" all of the incoming audio into a single DD 5.1 container before transmission. Apparently, the HDHomerun app does not do this within the AndroidTV app. Read on... It is also interesting to note that after downloading the HDHomerun app to my AppleTV 4K and viewing the same OTA channel, the audio played back is perfectly fluid. The HDHomerun app written for the ATV4K platform consistently sends PCM 5.1 to the RMC-1L. Considering that the ATV4K could equally support and send PCM 2.0, there's apparently a big difference in how the app is written between the two platforms. So, to sum it up, while we would all like for the Emotiva G3 processors to switch decoding modes a bit faster, and while the DSP certainly shouldn’t “lock up” and become unresponsive, this isn't a “bug” or something that Emotiva can wholly fix. What they can do (and are doing) is continue to tweak the lock-on timing to reduce the residual mute when the audio source changes and to figure out why the DSP occasionally crashes as a result (which I believe they are also doing). The "real" root of the problem lies within the audio stream presented from the app itself (which is coming from the local broadcaster). Short of a standardized broadcast solution were 5.1 is mandatory, it is up to the app developers to address the potential issues that this can cause when left unmodified. Apparently, Channels and Plex have already done this whereas HDHomerun has not (or at least hasn't on the AndroidTV platform). If you truly want to fix the issue and have some peace of mind while enjoying your XMC-2, you’ll have to either change the OTA app you’re using our use that same HDHomerun app on an AppleTV. I know you’ve said that the switching on your Marantz receiver is “ an order of magnitude faster”, but without pulling my Marantz AV8805 out of the storage closet to compare, I’d be willing to bet that, while faster, it isn’t “ perfect”. By simply changing the app, or using the same app on a different platform, you will achieve the perfection you’re looking for. That much I can vouch for. Hope this helps... You have a Marantz AV 8805 sitting in storage??? 🤯 Also great job digging into this I'm sure you could have done many different things with your time.
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Chris
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Post by Chris on Mar 27, 2021 12:20:00 GMT -5
Chris, I've invested several hours between last night and early this morning investigating this issue which I can now replicate using the HDHomerun app that I’ve freshly downloaded and installed on my Nvidia Shield Pro. Here’s what I have found… After isolating a local channel that routinely passes all commercials “as is”, but also broadcasts their own content (local news) as DD 2.0, I can easily replicate the behavior you're experiencing. While there is a setting within the app that, if changed, will decode DD internally and pass it along as PCM, it does not change the result. Furthermore, changing the default “2.0” and “ 5.1” input settings of my RMC-1L to share the same specific decoder did nothing to improve the outcome. Changing any of the aforementioned parameters resulted in the same length of muting between signal changes going from 2.0 to 5.1 and vice versa. Looking into the Shield itself for a possible solution, there is an audio setting that, if enabled, will internally upmix “stereo” to 5.1. While enabling this did resolve the matter of avoiding a mode change within the RMC-1L itself (as it’s always receiving 5.1 from the source device), it did not vastly improve upon the “mute” timing between the mode breaks within the OTA programming. So, it appears that the internals of the Shield itself also struggles with the type of audio streaming originating from this app. In contrast, neither “ Channels” or “ Plex” suffers from this issue. I routinely flipped back and forth between both of those two apps and could view the same OTA channel without experiencing any issues whatsoever. It is only the HDHomerun app that causes this behavior. It is my opinion that both Channels and Plex have deployed the same practices that are used by many rebroadcasters. To avoid this particular issue, they “force" all of the incoming audio into a single DD 5.1 container before transmission. Apparently, the HDHomerun app does not do this within the AndroidTV app. Read on... It is also interesting to note that after downloading the HDHomerun app to my AppleTV 4K and viewing the same OTA channel, the audio played back is perfectly fluid. The HDHomerun app written for the ATV4K platform consistently sends PCM 5.1 to the RMC-1L. Considering that the ATV4K could equally support and send PCM 2.0, there's apparently a big difference in how the app is written between the two platforms. So, to sum it up, while we would all like for the Emotiva G3 processors to switch decoding modes a bit faster, and while the DSP certainly shouldn’t “lock up” and become unresponsive, this isn't a “bug” or something that Emotiva can wholly fix. What they can do (and are doing) is continue to tweak the lock-on timing to reduce the residual mute when the audio source changes and to figure out why the DSP occasionally crashes as a result (which I believe they are also doing). The "real" root of the problem lies within the audio stream presented from the app itself (which is coming from the local broadcaster). Short of a standardized broadcast solution were 5.1 is mandatory, it is up to the app developers to address the potential issues that this can cause when left unmodified. Apparently, Channels and Plex have already done this whereas HDHomerun has not (or at least hasn't on the AndroidTV platform). If you truly want to fix the issue and have some peace of mind while enjoying your XMC-2, you’ll have to either change the OTA app you’re using our use that same HDHomerun app on an AppleTV. I know you’ve said that the switching on your Marantz receiver is “ an order of magnitude faster”, but without pulling my Marantz AV8805 out of the storage closet to compare, I’d be willing to bet that, while faster, it isn’t “ perfect”. By simply changing the app, or using the same app on a different platform, you will achieve the perfection you’re looking for. That much I can vouch for. Hope this helps... You have a Marantz AV 8805 sitting in storage??? 🤯 Also, great job digging into this I'm sure you could have done many different things with your time. Thank you for taking the time to dig into this issue. You provide a lot of information that clarifies this issue. I use Plex as well so I can certainly use that App as well. I just kind of like the directness of the HDHomeRun App. Your observations about the differences between the HDHomeRun Andorid and iOS apps is also instructive. As I asked earlier, if Emotiva could provide any details that show where the HDHomeRun app is sending incorrect data to the the Emotiva DSP, I could then take this to SiliconDust for their analysis. They are usually very responsive. If I just report a bug to SiliconDust based on what we know so far they will direct me to talk to Emotiva for the solution? I hope Emotiva will be concerned enough to explore this issue further. Again, thanks so much for taking time to dig into this and add real data to the discussion.
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