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Post by Ex_Vintage on Mar 2, 2021 8:56:14 GMT -5
I have been using a Bluesound Node 2i connected via Coax to my XMC-1 and have been pondering what improvement I could get in clarity and soundstage by adding an external balanced DAC. I am not interested in spending a grand or more on a DAC (It just would not make sense for my overall system), but the likes of SMSL and Schiit are now making well performing DAC's for far less than a grand. I have found the DAC in the XMC to be more to my liking than the DAC in the Node 2i. Also, is it critical to have a balanced DAC? My general impression would be yes, based on my experience with the quality of sound with the balanced outputs of the XMC. Overall, just wondering what additional improvement can be had DAC wise?
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Mar 2, 2021 10:01:40 GMT -5
The DACs in the XMC-1 are actually quite good...
In fact I would say that they are equal to the DACs in many standalone $1000 DACs...
The simple reality is that, when it comes to modern DACs, there is more and less difference than you might imagine.
Depending on how they're implemented, ESS Sabre DACs often have a bit of a house sound, which makes them sound slightly different than others.
Some people find this difference to be exciting and a huge improvement over "regular DACs"... Yet others find it merely different, or even annoying, and would rather live without it... And some implementations using Sabre DACs actually don't sound much different at all...
(People who like Sabre DACs usually describe them as "more detailed"; those who don't say "etched" or "grainy"...)
Some people find that they really think MQA encoded files sound wonderfully better and so they can't live without MQA... Others find the difference less than compelling... or perhaps not even an actual improvement (I happen to agree with that group).
Some people insist that "R2R ladder DACs" or "non-oversampling DACs" sound distinctly wonderful to their ears... As you might guess by now, others fail to notice any significant difference, or actually believe they sound worse... (Note that most non-oversampling DACs have a major high frequency roll-off that can make them sound smoother.)
The bottom line is that any competently designed DAC that sells for more than a few hundred dollars CAN have stellar specifications... And, while a few may actually sound just plain bad, most of the differences you hear are there by choice... (Whoever designed them gets to choose things like the oversampling filters... which do affect the sound.)
I've owned quite a few DACs in my day....
And I can reasonably say that at least one quite reputable $1200 standalone DAC I owned was clearly inferior to the DACs in the XMC-1... And I can't actually say that I recall owning one that sounded obviously and significantly better... Although I would say that the DACs in the XMC-2 and RMC-1 sound a tiny bit better... but the difference is really subtle. And I've heard many that, at least to me, sounded at least a little bit worse...
However, because a lot of those small differences boil down to personal preferences...
I would strongly advise you to listen for yourself... Avoid making choices based on someone else's review of what they like... And don't always believe the impressive sounding technical blather about why some expensive DAC should sound better... (Neither genuine fairy dust, nor cast iron transformers, nor alien technology recovered from a flying saucer in Area 51, actually improve things...)
And, even if they're really there, absurdly good specifications somewhere out in the tenth decimal place probably won't be audible either...
Actually listen to a few DACs for yourself before you spend a lot of money on one... You may be surprised at what you do - and don't - hear.
(And, of course, remember that most of the albums you listen to were recording using "plain old, garden variety, D-S A/D converters".)
I have been using a Bluesound Node 2i connected via Coax to my XMC-1 and have been pondering what improvement I could get in clarity and soundstage by adding an external balanced DAC. I am not interested in spending a grand or more on a DAC (It just would not make sense for my overall system), but the likes of SMSL and Schiit are now making well performing DAC's for far less than a grand. I have found the DAC in the XMC to be more to my liking than the DAC in the Node 2i. Also, is it critical to have a balanced DAC? My general impression would be yes, based on my experience with the quality of sound with the balanced outputs of the XMC. Overall, just wondering what additional improvement can be had DAC wise? |
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Post by 405x5 on Mar 2, 2021 10:41:01 GMT -5
I could only add, in all of this that a true and VALID A/B comparison of “high end” DACS is one of the more difficult tasks to accomplish while being sure of what spec. within a DAC is making an audiable difference. Time to break out the microscope.
Bill
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Post by LuisV on Mar 2, 2021 10:48:45 GMT -5
I have been using a Bluesound Node 2i connected via Coax to my XMC-1 and have been pondering what improvement I could get in clarity and soundstage by adding an external balanced DAC. I am not interested in spending a grand or more on a DAC (It just would not make sense for my overall system), but the likes of SMSL and Schiit are now making well performing DAC's for far less than a grand. I have found the DAC in the XMC to be more to my liking than the DAC in the Node 2i. Also, is it critical to have a balanced DAC? My general impression would be yes, based on my experience with the quality of sound with the balanced outputs of the XMC. Overall, just wondering what additional improvement can be had DAC wise? It's a loaded question and one that I am chasing as well... your best bet is to make the decision based on what sounds best to your ears. Most manufacturers, online retailers, etc. have a return policy, so the restocking fee, return shipping cost or both are, in my eyes, a small price to pay to answer that question for yourself. I have the Node 2i and preferred the sound when connected to a Modi Multibit vs the Node's internal DAC. Wider / deeper soundstage, crisper yet not fatiguing details with deeper bass were some of the benefits. I've since sold the Modi and my quest for a better DAC is underway... considering the Schiit Bifrost, Schiit Gungnir, Denafrips Ares II and Black ICE Tube DAC. I'm leaning towards the Bifrost, but we'll see... it all depends on what sounds best to my ears... |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Mar 2, 2021 11:06:15 GMT -5
Overall, just wondering what additional improvement can be had DAC wise? It's a loaded question and one that I am chasing as well... your best bet is to make the decision based on what sounds best to your ears. Most manufacturers, online retailers, etc. have a return policy, so the restocking fee, return shipping cost or both are, in my eyes, a small price to pay to answer that question for yourself. I have the Node 2i and preferred the sound when connected to a Modi Multibit vs the Node's internal DAC. Wider / deeper soundstage, crisper yet not fatiguing details with deeper bass were some of the benefits. I've since sold the Modi and my quest for a better DAC is underway... considering the Schiit Bifrost, Schiit Gungnir, Denafrips Ares II and Black ICE Tube DAC. I'm leaning towards the Bifrost, but we'll see... it all depends on what sounds best to my ears... I agree with all that has been said. Bottom line is I will have to "throw a dart" and try one in my system. The only way to determine benefit is in MY system, in My room. The most important factor seems to be return policy. I was just curious as to if someone else has already gone down this path with similar equipment (ie the XMC-1) and could share their experience. |
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Post by LuisV on Mar 2, 2021 11:41:26 GMT -5
It's a loaded question and one that I am chasing as well... your best bet is to make the decision based on what sounds best to your ears. Most manufacturers, online retailers, etc. have a return policy, so the restocking fee, return shipping cost or both are, in my eyes, a small price to pay to answer that question for yourself. I have the Node 2i and preferred the sound when connected to a Modi Multibit vs the Node's internal DAC. Wider / deeper soundstage, crisper yet not fatiguing details with deeper bass were some of the benefits. I've since sold the Modi and my quest for a better DAC is underway... considering the Schiit Bifrost, Schiit Gungnir, Denafrips Ares II and Black ICE Tube DAC. I'm leaning towards the Bifrost, but we'll see... it all depends on what sounds best to my ears... I agree with all that has been said. Bottom line is I will have to "throw a dart" and try one in my system. The only way to determine benefit is in MY system, in My room. The most important factor seems to be return policy. I was just curious as to if someone else has already gone down this path with similar equipment (ie the XMC-1) and could share their experience. Yea, sorry that I couldn't provide more help / guidance... when I had the XMC-1, 2 channel audio took a back seat and was more geared towards background music. Now it's the complete opposite... new house with a much smaller, yet dedicated home office / man cave... |
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Post by housetech on Mar 2, 2021 12:26:47 GMT -5
I find the Burr-Brown DACs (XMC-1) excellent, a good match for my M.A. speakers and have no desire to upgrade it. The ESS Sabre DAC in the UMC-200 was as Keith described in my system- too edgy. The AKM in Anthem was also a little too bright for me, though paired with a couple of other brand speakers, it sounded very good. I also liked them with soft-dome tweeters in DIY projects.
We have multiple systems in the house- some source equipment I bit-stream, while others are analogue out; it all depends on the sound of the DAC.
I must be in the minority, but matching a DAC to speakers is more important (to me) than any other component up-stream.
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Mar 2, 2021 12:34:25 GMT -5
I find the Burr-Brown DACs (XMC-1) excellent, a good match for my M.A. speakers and have no desire to upgrade it. The ESS Sabre DAC in the UMC-200 was as Keith described in my system- too edgy. The AKM in Anthem was also a little too bright for me, though paired with a couple of other brand speakers, it sounded very good. I also liked them with soft-dome tweeters in DIY projects. We have multiple systems in the house- some source equipment I bit-stream, while others are analogue out; it all depends on the sound of the DAC. I must be in the minority, but matching a DAC to speakers is more important (to me) than any other component up-stream. Thanks for the insight. I have a pair of Tekton Enzo 2.7's coming to replace the Elac UF5's I have now. Best to wait until I have completed break in and messing with positioning to see if I feel as though a change would possibly provide benefit. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2021 12:45:09 GMT -5
I have been using a Bluesound Node 2i connected via Coax to my XMC-1 and have been pondering what improvement I could get in clarity and soundstage by adding an external balanced DAC. I am not interested in spending a grand or more on a DAC (It just would not make sense for my overall system), but the likes of SMSL and Schiit are now making well performing DAC's for far less than a grand. I have found the DAC in the XMC to be more to my liking than the DAC in the Node 2i. Also, is it critical to have a balanced DAC? My general impression would be yes, based on my experience with the quality of sound with the balanced outputs of the XMC. Overall, just wondering what additional improvement can be had DAC wise? It's a loaded question and one that I am chasing as well... your best bet is to make the decision based on what sounds best to your ears. Most manufacturers, online retailers, etc. have a return policy, so the restocking fee, return shipping cost or both are, in my eyes, a small price to pay to answer that question for yourself. I have the Node 2i and preferred the sound when connected to a Modi Multibit vs the Node's internal DAC. Wider / deeper soundstage, crisper yet not fatiguing details with deeper bass were some of the benefits. I've since sold the Modi and my quest for a better DAC is underway... considering the Schiit Bifrost, Schiit Gungnir, Denafrips Ares II and Black ICE Tube DAC. I'm leaning towards the Bifrost, but we'll see... it all depends on what sounds best to my ears... Sent you a PM LuisV, I'm hoping to add the sound of tubes into my system and thought I'd try some Schiit gear. I also have a Node 2i and currently use the onboard 2.1 channel DAC. I'd like to add a Saga+ or Freya+ in between the Node 2i to Parasound's Halo A31. Just confirming that this will introduce the signature tube sound? I'd already of ordered up the Saga+ but it is currently showing "unavailable" on Amazon. I was surprised to see Schiit has a shop on Amazon but hey I'll take advantage of Amazon points while using Amazon credit! |
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 2, 2021 13:26:01 GMT -5
I find the Burr-Brown DACs (XMC-1) excellent, a good match for my M.A. speakers and have no desire to upgrade it. The ESS Sabre DAC in the UMC-200 was as Keith described in my system- too edgy. The AKM in Anthem was also a little too bright for me, though paired with a couple of other brand speakers, it sounded very good. I also liked them with soft-dome tweeters in DIY projects. We have multiple systems in the house- some source equipment I bit-stream, while others are analogue out; it all depends on the sound of the DAC. I must be in the minority, but matching a DAC to speakers is more important (to me) than any other component up-stream. Thanks for the insight. I have a pair of Tekton Enzo 2.7's coming to replace the Elac UF5's I have now. Best to wait until I have completed break in and messing with positioning to see if I feel as though a change would possibly provide benefit. Interested to here your opinion on the 2.7s? My original Enzo's got moved to surround duty when the Double Impacts showed up |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,938
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Post by KeithL on Mar 2, 2021 13:46:56 GMT -5
Just a minor correction... we have never used ESS Sabre DACs in any of our products. We find them to be usually be a little bit overly bright or grainy.
The UMC-200 used the Cirrus Logic CS42518 multi-channel DAC.
Also note that most modern DAC chips offer a choice of multiple reconstruction filters... Which allow the design engineer to tailor the sound to a degree between accurate and "slightly laid back"...
I find the Burr-Brown DACs (XMC-1) excellent, a good match for my M.A. speakers and have no desire to upgrade it. The ESS Sabre DAC in the UMC-200 was as Keith described in my system- too edgy. The AKM in Anthem was also a little too bright for me, though paired with a couple of other brand speakers, it sounded very good. I also liked them with soft-dome tweeters in DIY projects. We have multiple systems in the house- some source equipment I bit-stream, while others are analogue out; it all depends on the sound of the DAC. I must be in the minority, but matching a DAC to speakers is more important (to me) than any other component up-stream. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Mar 2, 2021 15:19:43 GMT -5
I'm hoping to add the sound of tubes into my system and thought I'd try some Schiit gear. I also have a Node 2i and currently use the onboard 2.1 channel DAC. I'd like to add a Saga+ or Freya+ in between the Node 2i to Parasound's Halo A31. Just confirming that this will introduce the signature tube sound? I'd already of ordered up the Saga+ but it is currently showing "unavailable" on Amazon. I was surprised to see Schiit has a shop on Amazon but hey I'll take advantage of Amazon points while using Amazon credit! Deleted. I originally did an A/B comparison of the Node 2i DAC vs the DAC in the XMC-1. For me the XMC won hands down, both detail and soundstage were more to my preference with the XMC. If you are looking for a "tube" sound, check out the SMSL SU-9 DAC. This one was on my radar screen as it has MQA capability with several PCM and color filters. One of them supposedly emulate a tube pre. |
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 3, 2021 5:19:42 GMT -5
Actually grainy and such is old news on ESS DACs Keith. The new pro ESS DACs are excellent. Detail galore and sometimes I prefer it over the AKM or Burr Brown DACs. I get great results using ESS.
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Post by audiobill on Mar 3, 2021 7:18:16 GMT -5
Agree, old news and opinions on ESS.
As @keithl has instructed us, it's all about the implementation, including the quality of a dac's power supply as well as its analog output stage.
The Sabre dac built into my McIntosh c2600 all tube preamp is as smooth as any I've heard, which run the full gamut of available topologies (multibit, tube based, PS Audio directstream, Emo DC-1, etc).
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Post by jamco on Mar 3, 2021 14:42:45 GMT -5
Agree, old news and opinions on ESS. As @keithl has instructed us, it's all about the implementation, including the quality of a dac's power supply as well as its analog output stage. The Sabre dac built into my McIntosh c2600 all tube preamp is as smooth as any I've heard, which run the full gamut of available topologies (multibit, tube based, PS Audio directstream, Emo DC-1, etc). audiobill, how would you describe the differences between the PS Audio DirectStream and Emotiva DC-1? I ask because I’m thinking about upgrading from the DC-1. |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 3, 2021 15:57:58 GMT -5
The DS was very smooth and spacious, while I found the DC-1 very transparent with a nice midrange and great I/O flexibility. For the difference in price, I think i’d keep the DC-1 with the understanding it probably won’t last as long and can be replaced when it goes.
Or, Why not try the DS with the return policy?
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Post by jamco on Mar 3, 2021 18:25:53 GMT -5
The DC-1 was very smooth and spacious, while I found the DC-1 very transparent with a nice midrange and great I/O flexibility. For the difference in price, I think i’d keep the DC-1 with the understanding it probably won’t last as long and can be replaced when it goes. Or, Why not try the DS with the return policy? Thanks for your review, audiobill. I would have expected a lot more at that price. |
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Post by audiobill on Mar 3, 2021 19:39:03 GMT -5
No, the DC-1 was an exceptional value that Emo either cancelled too early or misjudged the popularity of streaming, a real miscue that no amount of recycled XMC-1s will correct.
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Post by jamco on Mar 3, 2021 21:02:39 GMT -5
audiobill, I totally agree that the DC-1 was an exceptional value. It’s still serving me well today in my home office, especially with the ongoing corporate work location restrictions. Truth be told, I have a case of Audio Upgrade Fever.
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lokyc
Minor Hero
Posts: 71
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Post by lokyc on Mar 12, 2021 10:31:53 GMT -5
I had ESS Dacs for my eXasound e28 and they are excellent. Detailed but not cold or grainy. Smooth and crisp. But I'm more into the Chord Rob Watts FPGA sound now. I went from a Hugo to Hugo TT and now TT2. I find it fuller bodied and has a nice raw edge to it. The XMC-2 DAC is superb. As good as the exasound it replaced but fuller and more dynamic. It's as good as any off the shelf based DACs I have heard as Keith said, above £1000 to £2000. The hugo TT2 of course use a custom FPGA DAC with bespoke algorithm. It also cost nearly 4 grand. I would have happily used the XMC-2 for stereo if I have never heard the Chord stuff.
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