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Post by Boomzilla on May 12, 2021 10:11:26 GMT -5
Not all of this is exact..... Sure....If you are putting a given signal INTO an amp and have a scope on input AND output, you can compare. The problem comes with REAL Speakers, for which no adequate standard test exists. ALL speaker / amp combinations....can have No to Many problems. Not all combinations are equal. Some amp / speaker combos are golden while trying to get a 4ohm current hungry panel working with an HT receiver is probably a waste of time. And yes.....different strokes for different folks. Slam? Detail? Air? Rhythm? Pace? Timing? That's why MOST reviews are GAS. Except for YOUR knowledge of the reviewer and how that jives with YOUR values.......Agree or DISagree... Yes and no. The room that any speaker is placed in has a greater impact on the sound than most anything else. And no two reviewers (or audio enthusiasts) are EVER going to have identical rooms. So yes, there's always a HUGE variable in any speaker review. That said, the general characteristics of a speaker are discernible in spite of the room that the speakers are used in. A horn speaker will sound like a horn speaker no matter where you put it. A KEF LS-50 will never be mistaken for a Tekton no matter what room you audition them in. Etc. But I totally agree with leonski that YOUR knowledge of a reviewer's preferences and how those jive with your values is the most important factor in maximizing the value of a review. My local newspaper used to have a movie critic that one of my coworkers profoundly hated. I asked him "why do you read the movie reviews of this critic if you dislike him so much?" My coworker replied - "it's easy - if the critic hates a movie, I know that I'll like it and vice versa!" So even if you disagree with the preferences of a specific writer, you can find value if you know how to interpret the material. Boomzilla |
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Post by leonski on May 12, 2021 14:32:19 GMT -5
Yep...
Knowledge of the REVIEWER is critical to figuring out just what he or she said.
I limited my previous comments to amp / speaker......
Of COURSE, the room is still paramount but it is also true that a poor amp / speaker match is a great room might not be enough to 'overcome' a good match in a medium room......
The question than becomes, at least for EMO users, 'how much voicing goes into an individual product?'.......And than if a certain amp is preferred over the same amp with the only
difference being capacitor and resistor selection, how MUCH $$ would the preferred amp be worth to the end user? How much more to produce? And can sufficient spares be sourced
to make repairs for a reasonable product lifetime?
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,275
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Post by KeithL on May 12, 2021 15:02:54 GMT -5
I think that it would be fair to say that we use what I might call "negative voicing" on products like amplifiers. In general we "voice" to eliminate coloration rather than to find a specific coloration that pleases us (or our customers).
Our goal is basically to have our products sound neutral - so they let you hear the music exactly as it is. So, unlike the way some designers apparently think, we don't pull out an old box of "interesting" capacitors and resistors and "see which one we like this time". We start by designing things "by the book" - with the target being the lowest possible distortion and coloration. Then we listen to the prototype, and look for problems that need fixing, or for things that simply seem like they might be improved. The reality is that sometimes specific components do make a difference... But in many cases it's more a matter of superstition than fact... And in some cases the difference is really very tiny... while the difference in cost may be huge... or it may be unclear whether "different" is really "better" or not.
Incidentally, for those who like choices, try one of our Ego Plus DACs... We gave you a choice of three different filters... And, yes, if you listen closely, they do sound different... And, for those of you who care, I personally prefer Filter #2 .
(Try listening to an acoustic recording with plenty of plucked guitar strings or cymbals... )
Yep... Knowledge of the REVIEWER is critical to figuring out just what he or she said. I limited my previous comments to amp / speaker...... Of COURSE, the room is still paramount but it is also true that a poor amp / speaker match is a great room might not be enough to 'overcome' a good match in a medium room...... The question than becomes, at least for EMO users, 'how much voicing goes into an individual product?'.......And than if a certain amp is preferred over the same amp with the only difference being capacitor and resistor selection, how MUCH $$ would the preferred amp be worth to the end user? How much more to produce? And can sufficient spares be sourced to make repairs for a reasonable product lifetime? |
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Post by leonski on May 12, 2021 16:08:31 GMT -5
Of course, Capacitors made of UnObtanium are as expensive as a small house in San Francisco (Thats a BIG number!) So that's OUT for EMO products where price must be kept down.
regardless of the 'maybe' of sonic benefits.
My OPINION is that for parts which sound the same or within the limits of what Keith and the 'panel of listeners' call neutral, I'd go with higher MTBF (especially for semiconductors)
Even at a slight premium in cost to end-user. You'll reap reputation and cost of repair benefits, later.
One thing NOT yet touched on is the 'upgraded' piece. You spend X on a premium or 'well ragarded' amplifier, for example. THAN send it off for 'the big upgrade'......All sorts of replacement
parts added from 'Thin Film Resistors' (gasp!) to premium this or that...including a couple inches of single crystal wire. The Works. And NOBODY will touch it used. You have what is
essentially an artifact. Best of luck with THAT.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 12, 2021 16:21:11 GMT -5
Mr. Levkoff's comments do also trigger a question (or at least a rhetorical one): If you send more money on a component, what are you getting for your money?
I'd contend that in this age of computer assisted circuit design and modeling, it's unlikely that you're getting much in the way of new technology. Manufacturers know how to optimize the balance between distortion, sonic output, global feedback, transistor bias, etc. in a given circuit to get the best sound out of a given budget.
I'd also contend that (at least in most cases) you aren't getting much extra in the way of longevity. "Overengineering" the voltage ratings of capacitors or the wattage dissipation ratings of resistors involves a HUGE expense for little or no sonic benefit. It wasn't always so, but these days, the tolerances on parts are not only tighter but MUCH tighter than they once were, and the service life is highly predictable. What percentage of potential customers plan on keeping their components half a century anyway?
If the manufacturer is using audio-wierdo parts, like hand built capacitors, or fossilized monkey-doo resistors, then the manufacturer is probably going for a specific "sound" that is at odds with Keith's stated target of neutrality. Yes, such components CAN change the sound of a component, but will you, the customer, get tired of that "sound?"
So what ARE you actually getting for additional money? Beyond a certain point, I'd contend that you're buying:
The prestige of owning a specific brand
Cosmetic overbuilding of half-inch thick faceplates with laser etching or the like
The personal satisfaction that you could afford to buy "the best" and need not fret about it anymore
Will your gold-plated Spiznomorinktum-1000 continue to satisfy? Probably, until the Spizno-2000 comes along. And thus the seeds of audio-nervosa are planted...
This isn't to say that cheap components are always better than (or even as good as) more expensive ones, nor am I saying that if you want the upscale item that you shouldn't get it. What I am saying is listen before you leap, and ask if what you're hearing is "better" or only "different?" Once you find something you like, then it's more important that you like it than what it costs. I like bargains, and am ever on the watch for items that seem to offer great value for their price. I've been through a LOT of equipment, and really like what I currently have. Might I find something in the future that I like better? Sure! But my churn cycle on equipment is slowing down a LOT because I've found stuff that I really like.
Boomzilla
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Post by audiobill on May 12, 2021 19:03:26 GMT -5
Well said, Boom, Me too!!!
I do find myself uninterested, and even bored by the offerings of most brands lately.
Love the sounds I’ve got!
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Post by leonski on May 12, 2021 21:34:19 GMT -5
Yet it's also true that specific brands can have specific sonic signitures.
I'm not a big fan of Mc gear, that cool blue color not withstanding. House sound never DID seem to gel (for me) with my panels.....
Others have praised the combination....
Naim springs ot mind as having a following. Or maybe Bryston? You MIGHT be paying for the voicing time for a new component. That which matches YOUR subjective view of what
something should 'sound like'.....
What can you get for more $$? Well, use of select or matched parts in some circuits. More time spent POST build on the bench being burned in (prevents infant mortality problems) .
Higher MTBF parts when possible. That Bryston 20 year warranty comes from SOMEWHERE and it's not exactly 'free'. Premium G10 circuit boards, double thick copper for power sections.
Boom's list of what you get for more money is cynical, at best....and certainly incomplete.
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Post by Ex_Vintage on May 12, 2021 21:47:40 GMT -5
There are a variety of equipment who's intended purpose is to allow you the ability to adjust the tone or color of your sound (Eq's, tone controls, DAC filters...). Why would you look for a fixed piece of equipment like an amp, pre-amp, or a DAC or (heaven forbid) interconnect or speaker cables in essence "color" the sound of your system when these items are not adjustable and can be a very expensive experiment?
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Post by leonski on May 12, 2021 22:16:59 GMT -5
Ex,
IF there were an agreed-upon Neutral system.....people would seek out their preference elsewhere.
EQs are a form of sonic holocaust. All intruduce various problems, even phase shifts, which are very unmusical...
Many brands which are not strictly 'neutral' have a fan base. I don't know why, but they DO......I don't know of much
gear any more built in Switzerland!
I've personally stayed OFF the cable merry-go-round. My only deviation is the Mogami Studio Gold from DAC to PRE....
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Post by DavidR on May 12, 2021 23:08:57 GMT -5
Ex, IF there were an agreed-upon Neutral system.....people would seek out their preference elsewhere. EQs are a form of sonic holocaust. All intruduce various problems, even phase shifts, which are very unmusical... Many brands which are not strictly 'neutral' have a fan base. I don't know why, but they DO..... .I don't know of much
gear any more built in Switzerland!I've personally stayed OFF the cable merry-go-round. My only deviation is the Mogami Studio Gold from DAC to PRE.... GOLDMUND but you and all the others here can't afford it. A high-end audio store in my town sells it - well one piece - and the buyer/owner returned it (a Pre amp) in for credit towards something else.
How many of you are building amps and pre's and peripheral equipment?
This thread is bordering on ridiculous.
If you don't like Emotiva move on. They answered my problem of synergy after wasting time and money on modified Carver amps. Never found one that was quite right. A Canadian audio buddy suggested I try the XPA-2 G2. It was a very nice (especially for the price) but felt it was a tad bright on the high end for my speakers with the Rotel RC-1082 Pre I had. So then I tried the XSP-1 G2. BIG improvement. I felt I got a lot in that Pre for the price and good sound, too. I was shopping other amps (at Natural Sound, the high-end store in town) and auditioned a Bryston 4BSST; over $6000 IIRC - that 20 year warranty cost a lot. At that time Emotiva came out with the Limited Edition SA-250 amp. I liked the design and gave it a try. It was BETTER than the Bryston, especially in the bass. All of my controls, including the speakers, are in the neutral position. I liked it so much I got a second one and now wish I had a third. Don't expect Emotiva to build a nice amp like that again any time soon.
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Post by leonski on May 13, 2021 15:23:54 GMT -5
The Bryston was never on my 'to buy' radar. Mixed reviews with Magnepan which I didn't want to sort out IN MY HOUSE.
But the SA-250 WAS looked into....as were the 1L mono amps. I just went in a different direction with Parasound.
Ridiculous is not quite rite. Relevant, especially to HT types is more like it, where nobody knows what anything actually sounds like. Big explosion? Jet plane going right over? Other 'effects' sounds?
So things which are more important to a music listener, like coloration and some other measureables, are simply not important to a movie guy.
And while, David, you never know what is 'in the pipeline', I think you may be right. No more stuff like in the past. and recently, at that.......
cheers.
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