G3P Elevated BM & LFE Issue

[muslhead]

Is there no way to revert back to an older version of the firmware?
Would not this be a fix or would this bring in other issues?

[JKCashin]

OK for safety sake I just have all speakers set to small, and one sub hooked up to center sub (BM)

[jbrunwa]

So what would be an acceptable solution? More expensive processors like Trinnov have separate small speaker bass management routing parameters. You can select which bigger speaker will receive the redirected bass from the smaller speaker, the crossover and slope. You can also adjust the gain and the polarity on the bass-managed signal. The bass management parameters affect only the gain of the bass-managed signal and not the speaker level. I suspect that since Emotiva processors are also software-driven that under the covers the decision is being made by software. For my use case, I think I would be happy to have a level bass-managed signal.

[ttocs]

This is from March 2021, 210305 & 210308 to be exact. I was comparing FW-2.2 to FW-2.0. I didn't do quite as many iterations as I did this week, and I'm not going to update the wording so it is the same as in this thread, but I did move the subwoofer/speaker setups to correlate with the current presentation. Also, keep in mind that this set of measurements is with Dirac EQ. I have yet to compare Dirac EQ to User EQ, and maybe there's no "real" difference, however, it should be considered that bass peaks and dips when using User EQ with bumpy response curves might have some effect on the exact dB difference due to energy gain and loss but it would probably be somewhat minimal, still, it should be considered.
Attachment Deleted

The bottom line, there are differences in each firmware I've tried. 

[ttocs]

Jul 13, 2021 17:43:48 GMT -5 muslhead said:

Is there no way to revert back to an older version of the firmware?
Would not this be a fix or would this bring in other issues?

See the post above. There are differences with each firmware version. None are perfect, yet.

[ttocs]

Jul 13, 2021 18:38:57 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

So what would be an acceptable solution? More expensive processors like Trinnov have separate small speaker bass management routing parameters. You can select which bigger speaker will receive the redirected bass from the smaller speaker, the crossover and slope. You can also adjust the gain and the polarity on the bass-managed signal. The bass management parameters affect only the gain of the bass-managed signal and not the speaker level. I suspect that since Emotiva processors are also software-driven that under the covers the decision is being made by software. For my use case, I think I would be happy to have a level bass-managed signal.

Trinnov is the one I would get if I could.

I believe Emotiva will fix this issue. I believe there is a real bug in the code.

I am certain we need extra controls in the processor for leveling BM as we see fit.

[ttocs]

Jul 13, 2021 15:59:10 GMT -5 JKCashin said:

Just reading this thread now, but have to say thanks to ttocs for testing and documenting this so thoroughly. Your work and the work of marcl have helped me remain sane!

Now I must go read...

marcl has been a great help! Thanks Marc!

[marcl]

Jul 13, 2021 16:39:06 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

IMHO, having previously managed software development, what ttocs has done is representative of testing that should be done when developing software, enumerating through all the bass management options.

Exactly.  All reasonable paths should be tested, not just "happy path", and there should be regression testing with each release.  Some of us have done software development, managed dev teams (in my case managed test teams and project delivery teams) so we understand there are schedules, priorities, limited resources, etc.   We're not just customers complaining, or not understanding how the product works.  We've raised these issues since 2.1, and they have just gotten worse with each release.

[cawgijoe]

So, I haven’t really noticed elevated bass in my 5.1 setup. I have all my speakers set to small and one sub connected to the XMC-2.
It’s quite possible that the bass is elevated on all speakers, I just have not noticed.

I guess I need to look into this.

[ttocs]

Jul 13, 2021 21:54:33 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

So, I haven’t really noticed elevated bass in my 5.1 setup. I have all my speakers set to small and one sub connected to the XMC-2.
It’s quite possible that the bass is elevated on all speakers, I just have not noticed.

I guess I need to look into this.

If the MLP is in a slight null then elevated bass wouldn't be heard.

[muslhead]

Would a simple solution like turning off Dirac fix the problem short term until Emotiva finds a solution?
I would rather listen to non optimized output (no dirac) than non-optimized output combined with a potential risk to my speakers (bass overdrive)

[marcl]

Jul 13, 2021 21:54:33 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

So, I haven’t really noticed elevated bass in my 5.1 setup. I have all my speakers set to small and one sub connected to the XMC-2.
It’s quite possible that the bass is elevated on all speakers, I just have not noticed.

I guess I need to look into this.

It also depends on your crossover settings.  For channels with the crossover at 80 or 100Hz, you would probably hear it.  But if crossovers are set at 60 or lower you might not notice.  With music there's very little below 60Hz and almost nothing below 40Hz.  With movies, the LCR are likely to have more bass than the surrounds.  In your setup a measurement would show 3-5db rise below the crossovers.  If you're using Dirac with a flat target that's all the rise would be.  But if you have a bass boost in Dirac it would add to the boost.

[marcl]

Jul 14, 2021 5:47:33 GMT -5 muslhead said:

Would a simple solution like turning off Dirac fix the problem short term until Emotiva finds a solution?
I would rather listen to non optimized output (no dirac) than non-optimized output combined with a potential risk to my speakers (bass overdrive)

Dirac has nothing to do with the problem.  It can make it worse if you use target curve with elevated bass, but it is neither the cause nor the complete solution to the problem. 

If you take a look at ttocs' posts, all of his scenarios are with no Dirac, no EQ, just a plain User slot.  The boost is always there.

One thing that you can do is use a flat target curve in Dirac.  No "Harman Curve", and no Dirac default curve.  Set all the targets to flat, and all you will see in the result is the boost that ttocs and I have measured which is 3-5db.

[ttocs]

As marcl says, Dirac is not the problem.

All of the initial posts are while the USER EQ is active. I use USER for Preset 2, and Preset 2 has no Dirac loaded into any slot. Dirac is only on Preset 1 in my processor so there is no chance of a mixup.

Also, all of the current measurements I'm making are without Dirac. I posted some measurements I did four months ago with Dirac EQ active, but not doing that now. Our processors should work as advertised with the USER EQ, with sub and speaker at the same levels, and using Dirac in these tests would just add confusion so I won't be doing that at this time.

[ttocs]

I noticed something this morning from the testing I did in March, the complete results of which are posted above. Just looking at #9, which is the most extreme example of misaligned bass. 

With FW2.0, the bottom results, the Large Fronts are at 0.0dB and the BM, which is supplied by the Large Fronts, is at +4dB.
But with FW2.2 the BM is at +11dB while the Large Fronts are still at 0.0dB.
With FW2.3 the BM is at the same approximate elevated level but the Large Fronts are now at an elevated level of +7dB, which makes the BM about the same offset as FW2.0. Interesting.

FW2.2 on top, FW2.0 on bottom.


FW2.3

[cawgijoe]

Jul 14, 2021 5:52:39 GMT -5 marcl said:

Jul 13, 2021 21:54:33 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

So, I haven’t really noticed elevated bass in my 5.1 setup. I have all my speakers set to small and one sub connected to the XMC-2.
It’s quite possible that the bass is elevated on all speakers, I just have not noticed.

I guess I need to look into this.

It also depends on your crossover settings.  For channels with the crossover at 80 or 100Hz, you would probably hear it.  But if crossovers are set at 60 or lower you might not notice.  With music there's very little below 60Hz and almost nothing below 40Hz.  With movies, the LCR are likely to have more bass than the surrounds.  In your setup a measurement would show 3-5db rise below the crossovers.  If you're using Dirac with a flat target that's all the rise would be.  But if you have a bass boost in Dirac it would add to the boost.

Crossover at 80. No Bass boost. Dirac with flat target.

It's tough for me to just play with the system since I'm working all day and it's in use at night. I'll spend more time with it this weekend. I don't have REW but I do have a Radio Shack SPL meter.

[405x5]

Jul 13, 2021 21:54:33 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

So, I haven’t really noticed elevated bass in my 5.1 setup. I have all my speakers set to small and one sub connected to the XMC-2.
It’s quite possible that the bass is elevated on all speakers, I just have not noticed.

I guess I need to look into this.

5.1 is easy to manage (I have the same) no issues.
Multiple subs. certainly can be advantageous under certain conditions but can be trickier to tweak.
Everyone’s situation is unique and requires it’s own configuration to smooth out the lows.
One of the problems is people throw the 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 numbers around without talking about the actual number of DRIVERS and their sizes and locations.
My own case in point….5.1 only….but comprises 29 drivers that include 4 10 inch woofers operating in push pull configuration. 4 eight inch woofers plus an 18 inch servo controlled sub. driver that is hardly needed on typical music material.

[muslhead]

Jul 14, 2021 5:57:26 GMT -5 marcl said:

Jul 14, 2021 5:47:33 GMT -5 muslhead said:

Would a simple solution like turning off Dirac fix the problem short term until Emotiva finds a solution?
I would rather listen to non optimized output (no dirac) than non-optimized output combined with a potential risk to my speakers (bass overdrive)

Dirac has nothing to do with the problem.  It can make it worse if you use target curve with elevated bass, but it is neither the cause nor the complete solution to the problem. 

If you take a look at ttocs' posts, all of his scenarios are with no Dirac, no EQ, just a plain User slot.  The boost is always there.

One thing that you can do is use a flat target curve in Dirac.  No "Harman Curve", and no Dirac default curve.  Set all the targets to flat, and all you will see in the result is the boost that ttocs and I have measured which is 3-5db.

"The boost is always there."
I understand this statement but want to ask, is it also there using reference stereo since, as i understand it, the processor just passes through the signal and does no correction.
Is this the one possible, safe solution (obviously 2 channel only)? Or does "The boost is always there." really mean just that?

[ttocs]

Jul 14, 2021 8:14:44 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Jul 14, 2021 5:52:39 GMT -5 marcl said:

It also depends on your crossover settings.  For channels with the crossover at 80 or 100Hz, you would probably hear it.  But if crossovers are set at 60 or lower you might not notice.  With music there's very little below 60Hz and almost nothing below 40Hz.  With movies, the LCR are likely to have more bass than the surrounds.  In your setup a measurement would show 3-5db rise below the crossovers.  If you're using Dirac with a flat target that's all the rise would be.  But if you have a bass boost in Dirac it would add to the boost.

Crossover at 80. No Bass boost. Dirac with flat target.

It's tough for me to just play with the system since I'm working all day and it's in use at night. I'll spend more time with it this weekend. I don't have REW but I do have a Radio Shack SPL meter.

To test using a SPL meter you will need to turn off the speaker amps or severely limit the upper range of the pink noise to enough below the XO so the speakers don't influence the results, but it's better just to turn off the amps for the speakers.

[marcl]

Jul 14, 2021 9:08:14 GMT -5 muslhead said:

Jul 14, 2021 5:57:26 GMT -5 marcl said:

Dirac has nothing to do with the problem.  It can make it worse if you use target curve with elevated bass, but it is neither the cause nor the complete solution to the problem. 

If you take a look at ttocs' posts, all of his scenarios are with no Dirac, no EQ, just a plain User slot.  The boost is always there.

One thing that you can do is use a flat target curve in Dirac.  No "Harman Curve", and no Dirac default curve.  Set all the targets to flat, and all you will see in the result is the boost that ttocs and I have measured which is 3-5db.

"The boost is always there."
I understand this statement but want to ask, is it also there using reference stereo since, as i understand it, the processor just passes through the signal and does no correction.
Is this the one possible, safe solution (obviously 2 channel only)? Or does "The boost is always there." really mean just that?

"Correction" in the sense of EQ or Dirac is not involved in this issue.  It's strictly bass management which relates to speakers set as small with their bass going to a sub or to large front speakers.