G3P Elevated BM & LFE Issue

[ttocs]

What marcl so eloquently stated, let me be blunt.

Bass Management elevates the bass for all Small Channels.

How much, and whether there is a difference in offset is based upon system configuration.

Period

[ttocs]

Let me also state definitively that adjustments to any particular device which provides bass for BM will not fix the problem. This problem will rear its ugly head when other sound fields are engaged. So while you might get a livable result with Surround, like I have, it won't work for All Stereo or other sound fields.

This will become evident as I post other combinations of sound field vs system config.

[muslhead]

Ok, since there is no bass management for reference stereo as that is disabled (as i understand), then my assertion there is no problem with this use case being safe is true.
Thanks for your patience and responses

[marcl]

Jul 14, 2021 9:53:31 GMT -5 muslhead said:

Ok, since there is no bass management for reference stereo as that is disabled (as i understand), then my assertion there is no problem with this use case being safe is true.
Thanks for your patience and responses

Yes 

[jbrunwa]

Jul 13, 2021 19:37:12 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I believe Emotiva will fix this issue. I believe there is a real bug in the code.

I am certain we need extra controls in the processor for leveling BM as we see fit.

Its not a bug, it’s a feature  It has more bass than the competition. 

I don’t have the patience to do the exhaustive testing you have done. It took me a couple hours just to gain match, time align and EQ my 2 subs with minidsp. Since this problem obviously affects more than one person, does Emotiva monitor this forum, and will they independently research and fix this, or does every user have to measure their own system and contact them independently with detailed info on their individual system? 

[ttocs]

He funny ^^^

[405x5]

Jul 14, 2021 10:18:05 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

“does Emotiva monitor this forum, and will they independently research and fix this, or does every user have to measure their own system and contact them independently with detailed info on their individual system?”

Neither!
Simply follow the “ttocs” guidelines and you’ll be all set! 😁🤣😃💤

[marcl]

Jul 14, 2021 10:18:05 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

Jul 13, 2021 19:37:12 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I believe Emotiva will fix this issue. I believe there is a real bug in the code.

I am certain we need extra controls in the processor for leveling BM as we see fit.

Its not a bug, it’s a feature  It has more bass than the competition. 

I don’t have the patience to do the exhaustive testing you have done. It took me a couple hours just to gain match, time align and EQ my 2 subs with minidsp. Since this problem obviously affects more than one person, does Emotiva monitor this forum, and will they independently research and fix this, or does every user have to measure their own system and contact them independently with detailed info on their individual system? 

Emotiva is aware of the issue, and they do monitor and often respond to this forum.  Maybe they don't know every nuance that ttocs has verified (and he's testing more scenarios to be more specific), but they know there is an issue with bass management.  There were other priorities in the 2.3 release.  Hopefully this will be a high priority in the next major release ... or preferably a point release sooner than that.

Everyone does not need to test their own system.  The problem most likely has a couple of root causes, and we know that it was mostly introduced in 2.2.  The development team needs to look at their specs and do a code/design review to determine how it should work and how to fix it.

[jbrunwa]

Jul 14, 2021 10:49:25 GMT -5 marcl said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:18:05 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

Its not a bug, it’s a feature  It has more bass than the competition. 

I don’t have the patience to do the exhaustive testing you have done. It took me a couple hours just to gain match, time align and EQ my 2 subs with minidsp. Since this problem obviously affects more than one person, does Emotiva monitor this forum, and will they independently research and fix this, or does every user have to measure their own system and contact them independently with detailed info on their individual system? 

Emotiva is aware of the issue, and they do monitor and often respond to this forum.  Maybe they don't know every nuance that ttocs has verified (and he's testing more scenarios to be more specific), but they know there is an issue with bass management.  There were other priorities in the 2.3 release.  Hopefully this will be a high priority in the next major release ... or preferably a point release sooner than that.

Everyone does not need to test their own system.  The problem most likely has a couple of root causes, and we know that it was mostly introduced in 2.2.  The development team needs to look at their specs and do a code/design review to determine how it should work and how to fix it.

Ok, thanks. Hopefully it will be prioritized as the bass management problem appears to be compounded as new speaker configurations are added.

[jbrunwa]

Jul 14, 2021 10:38:47 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Jul 14, 2021 10:18:05 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

“does Emotiva monitor this forum, and will they independently research and fix this, or does every user have to measure their own system and contact them independently with detailed info on their individual system?”

Neither!
Simply follow the “ttocs” guidelines and you’ll be all set! 😁🤣😃💤

As ttocs has stated there is no scenario where the bass management is correct unless all the speakers are large and you only use subs for LFE,  or you use reference stereo mode where no digital processing is performed. All you can do is try to minimize the issue.

[ElectricKoolAid]

Jul 13, 2021 19:37:12 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Jul 13, 2021 18:38:57 GMT -5 jbrunwa said:

So what would be an acceptable solution? More expensive processors like Trinnov have separate small speaker bass management routing parameters. You can select which bigger speaker will receive the redirected bass from the smaller speaker, the crossover and slope. You can also adjust the gain and the polarity on the bass-managed signal. The bass management parameters affect only the gain of the bass-managed signal and not the speaker level. I suspect that since Emotiva processors are also software-driven that under the covers the decision is being made by software. For my use case, I think I would be happy to have a level bass-managed signal.

Trinnov is the one I would get if I could.

I believe Emotiva will fix this issue. I believe there is a real bug in the code.

I am certain we need extra controls in the processor for leveling BM as we see fit.

IMO a web interface for the G3Ps would go a long way. Especially if extra controls were available such as leveling for BM. I know this is probably easier said than done, but even if a web interface with all the current menu options was available maybe they could add new features in the future to give us more control? 

[marcl]

Jul 14, 2021 11:25:38 GMT -5 @j*bleep*hrbc said:

Jul 13, 2021 19:37:12 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Trinnov is the one I would get if I could.

I believe Emotiva will fix this issue. I believe there is a real bug in the code.

I am certain we need extra controls in the processor for leveling BM as we see fit.

IMO a web interface for the G3Ps would go a long way. Especially if extra controls were available such as leveling for BM. I know this is probably easier said than done, but even if a web interface with all the current menu options was available maybe they could add new features in the future to give us more control? 

If a level control for BM was an interim fix I would take that deal ... and it would allow us to live with Level adjustment in the Preset not affecting each channel's bass.  We adjust each channel above the crossover with Levels, and adjust BM in one place.

But wait until ttocs tests all of the audio modes.  We're likely to find the levels different for say Surround vs Stereo vs All Stereo.  So we'll see ....

[JKCashin]

Jul 14, 2021 5:52:39 GMT -5 marcl said:

Jul 13, 2021 21:54:33 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

So, I haven’t really noticed elevated bass in my 5.1 setup. I have all my speakers set to small and one sub connected to the XMC-2.
It’s quite possible that the bass is elevated on all speakers, I just have not noticed.

I guess I need to look into this.

It also depends on your crossover settings.  For channels with the crossover at 80 or 100Hz, you would probably hear it.  But if crossovers are set at 60 or lower you might not notice.  

Does "might not notice" mean the issue is not present? Or does it mean the issue is present but harder to notice since the "bump" occurs at a lower frequency that seldom, in music anyway, has content?

[JKCashin]

Jul 14, 2021 8:11:35 GMT -5 ttocs said:

I noticed something this morning from the testing I did in March, the complete results of which are posted above. Just looking at #9, which is the most extreme example of misaligned bass. 

With FW2.0, the bottom results, the Large Fronts are at 0.0dB and the BM, which is supplied by the Large Fronts, is at +4dB.
But with FW2.2 the BM is at +11dB while the Large Fronts are still at 0.0dB.
With FW2.3 the BM is at the same approximate elevated level but the Large Fronts are now at an elevated level of +7dB, which makes the BM about the same offset as FW2.0. Interesting.

FW2.2 on top, FW2.0 on bottom.
View Attachment

FW2.3
View Attachment

So, I am a software developer. I once worked for a company that had one product that took multiple channel audio, and aggregated it for transmission. The front end to this product used config files to set various parameters... one such set being the gain/attenuation of each of the input channels. So you might have channels like:

• French Left
• French Right
• English Left
• English Right
• English Center
• English Surround Left
• English Surround Right
  
• Descriptive Audio English
• Descriptive Audio French
  
• Descriptive Audio Spanish
  
• Spanish Mono

and each of these channels had a control.

Additionally, you could have group controls..... such as:

• English
• English Stereo
• French
• Spanish
• Descriptive Audio
• Master Audio

So... say you set "English" to +3, then "English Stereo" to "+2", and "Master Audio" to -1. The results would be:
French Left

• French Left -1
• French Right -1
• English Left 4
• English Right 4
• English Center 2
• English Surround Left 2
• English Surround Right 2
• Descriptive Audio English -1
• Descriptive Audio French -1
• Descriptive Audio Spanish -1
• Spanish Mono -1

See how the settings layered?

Well anyway, the problem is our customers didn't understand how this worked, so I ended up writing a simple GUI demonstration tool that showed a set of controls, basically volume controls, named as shown above. It also showed the effective gain/attenuation for each channel. People could play with the controls to see the effects.... and then arrive at a set of settings to use.

So why am I bringing this up? I was wondering of there might be interest in having something like this for showing the issue being described here... so... is there?

[JKCashin]

Jul 14, 2021 8:33:03 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Jul 13, 2021 21:54:33 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

So, I haven’t really noticed elevated bass in my 5.1 setup. I have all my speakers set to small and one sub connected to the XMC-2.
It’s quite possible that the bass is elevated on all speakers, I just have not noticed.

I guess I need to look into this.

5.1 is easy to manage (I have the same) no issues.
Multiple subs. certainly can be advantageous under certain conditions but can be trickier to tweak.
Everyone’s situation is unique and requires it’s own configuration to smooth out the lows.
One of the problems is people throw the 5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4 numbers around without talking about the actual number of DRIVERS and their sizes and locations.
My own case in point….5.1 only….but comprises 29 drivers that include 4 10 inch woofers operating in push pull configuration. 4 eight inch woofers plus an 18 inch servo controlled sub. driver that is hardly needed on typical music material.

Uuugh.... I thought my 36 drivers was a bit much! Maybe not!

[JKCashin]

Jul 14, 2021 11:25:38 GMT -5 @j*bleep*hrbc said:

Jul 13, 2021 19:37:12 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Trinnov is the one I would get if I could.

I believe Emotiva will fix this issue. I believe there is a real bug in the code.

I am certain we need extra controls in the processor for leveling BM as we see fit.

IMO a web interface for the G3Ps would go a long way. Especially if extra controls were available such as leveling for BM. I know this is probably easier said than done, but even if a web interface with all the current menu options was available maybe they could add new features in the future to give us more control? 

Since the settings are stored to a backup file when you back up and it's XML, it would be possible to write a front end to edit that file.... it would not be real-time but it would work.

You could also use the same API that the remote uses and that would be real-time....

Neither of these approaches would require a single line of code in the processor to be changed. Not one. It would just use existing interfaces.

And it could be done by any software developer since the APIs are public.

[marcl]

Jul 14, 2021 15:59:57 GMT -5 JKCashin said:

Jul 14, 2021 5:52:39 GMT -5 marcl said:

It also depends on your crossover settings.  For channels with the crossover at 80 or 100Hz, you would probably hear it.  But if crossovers are set at 60 or lower you might not notice.  

Does "might not notice" mean the issue is not present? Or does it mean the issue is present but harder to notice since the "bump" occurs at a lower frequency that seldom, in music anyway, has content?

The latter.  The issue is always present because it can be directly measured with REW.  But depending on what you're listening to the bump does occur at frequencies that may not have a lot of energy.

For example I listen to some classical and jazz recordings that are 5.0 and 5.1, but the content in the surrounds is just room ambience and the center doesn't have a lot of bass.  But someone watching an action movie would probably be startled when stuff starts blowing up around you and the bass is +8db, because the Dolby spec for the non-LFE speakers allows sound down to 30Hz.

[JKCashin]

Jul 14, 2021 16:26:37 GMT -5 JKCashin said:

Jul 14, 2021 11:25:38 GMT -5 @j*bleep*hrbc said:

IMO a web interface for the G3Ps would go a long way. Especially if extra controls were available such as leveling for BM. I know this is probably easier said than done, but even if a web interface with all the current menu options was available maybe they could add new features in the future to give us more control? 

Since the settings are stored to a backup file when you back up and it's XML, it would be possible to write a front end to edit that file.... it would not be real-time but it would work.

You could also use the same API that the remote uses and that would be real-time....

Neither of these approaches would require a single line of code in the processor to be changed. Not one. It would just use existing interfaces.

And it could be done by any software developer since the APIs are public.

So... would anyone be interested in working on such a project with me?

I'd suggest doing it in QtQML on QtCreator which would produce a product that would be platform agnostic.

[marcl]

Jul 14, 2021 16:35:50 GMT -5 JKCashin said:

Jul 14, 2021 16:26:37 GMT -5 JKCashin said:

Since the settings are stored to a backup file when you back up and it's XML, it would be possible to write a front end to edit that file.... it would not be real-time but it would work.

You could also use the same API that the remote uses and that would be real-time....

Neither of these approaches would require a single line of code in the processor to be changed. Not one. It would just use existing interfaces.

And it could be done by any software developer since the APIs are public.

So... would anyone be interested in working on such a project with me?

I'd suggest doing it in QtQML on QtCreator which would produce a product that would be platform agnostic.

The thing is ... it would do nothing to solve any of the issues being described here.  The XML backup file just has parameters for existing features.  Bass management is handled in the system code based on the configuration of speaker size and crossovers.  There's no way available to us to affect that code.

[JKCashin]

Jul 14, 2021 16:47:22 GMT -5 marcl said:

Jul 14, 2021 16:35:50 GMT -5 JKCashin said:

So... would anyone be interested in working on such a project with me?

I'd suggest doing it in QtQML on QtCreator which would produce a product that would be platform agnostic.

The thing is ... it would do nothing to solve any of the issues being described here.  The XML backup file just has parameters for existing features.  Bass management is handled in the system code based on the configuration of speaker size and crossovers.  There's no way available to us to affect that code.

True.... but what I was thinking is if there is interest in an app/web interface to change settings.