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Post by omuracada on Jul 25, 2021 9:54:27 GMT -5
This is my first ELS and so far absolutely loving them. Break in period is up and I want to fine tune a few things. Its good to state that they are primarily for movies (95%) I have a ML Focus for the center and a SVS 3000 (which is hooked up as LFE into the center Sub option on the XMC2) to go with them. I use a XMC2 with a XPA-7 Gen 3 and about to order the XPA-DR3 to put the LCR on it and surrounds stick with the XPA-7. With all that said any suggestion on if I set my ML 13A's to a large speaker or keep them at small. I currently have all of them as Small including the Center. If we keep them small and suggestion on what I should set the crossover at? Once I get that all se and in a few more weeks I will make my attempt to then run Dirac.
Thanks in Advance!
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2021 10:35:39 GMT -5
Congrats on the great speakers! It took mine over 130 hours for the panels to settle down. After 50 hours the panels and woofers were great - mostly, but there were some parts of some music which would "zing" from the panels, so it just needed more time. I wouldn't do much of anything until you've got well over 100 hours on them, except for running ARC on the woofers after about 50 hours, and then again after 100. It made a difference each time. If you aren't aware of the site Martin Logan Owners forum, you should check it out. Lot's of good resources there. www.martinloganowners.comThese speakers need lots of room behind them, and/or, acoustic absorption, or like I've done with using extreme toe-in such that the "flash light" reflection is at 1/4 from the outer edge of the panel, not the inner third as recommended if the speaker panels are about 5' from the wall. Using my setup the back of the woofer boxes are about 1' from the wall so the panels are about 3' from the wall but angled such that I get no direct reflection from them at the MLP, and the rear wave is aimed away from center so it becomes fairly inert as it bounces around the room. If there are side walls nearby then the rear wave will still need to be contended with. My Right Expression is a few feet from the right wall so I've got absorption behind it on the front wall and some on the right wall, so, no problemo. I'll be very interested in how you like the amp/speaker combo. |
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Post by omuracada on Jul 25, 2021 11:12:06 GMT -5
Congrats on the great speakers! It took mine over 130 hours for the panels to settle down. After 50 hours the panels and woofers were great - mostly, but there were some parts of some music which would "zing" from the panels, so it just needed more time. I wouldn't do much of anything until you've got well over 100 hours on them, except for running ARC on the woofers after about 50 hours, and then again after 100. It made a difference each time. If you aren't aware of the site Martin Logan Owners forum, you should check it out. Lot's of good resources there. www.martinloganowners.comThese speakers need lots of room behind them, and/or, acoustic absorption, or like I've done with using extreme toe-in such that the "flash light" reflection is at 1/4 from the outer edge of the panel, not the inner third as recommended if the speaker panels are about 5' from the wall. Using my setup the back of the woofer boxes are about 1' from the wall so the panels are about 3' from the wall but angled such that I get no direct reflection from them at the MLP, and the rear wave is aimed away from center so it becomes fairly inert as it bounces around the room. If there are side walls nearby then the rear wave will still need to be contended with. My Right Expression is a few feet from the right wall so I've got absorption behind it on the front wall and some on the right wall, so, no problemo. I'll be very interested in how you like the amp/speaker combo. OK this is solid intel as I do not have that many hours into them so will give it more time. Question, how do I run ARC, I assume I need to order something off of ML to accomplish this? I have a mic that I use for DIRAC however How do I gain access to the actual software. Do I do that through ML? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2021 11:45:08 GMT -5
Congrats on the great speakers! It took mine over 130 hours for the panels to settle down. After 50 hours the panels and woofers were great - mostly, but there were some parts of some music which would "zing" from the panels, so it just needed more time. I wouldn't do much of anything until you've got well over 100 hours on them, except for running ARC on the woofers after about 50 hours, and then again after 100. It made a difference each time. If you aren't aware of the site Martin Logan Owners forum, you should check it out. Lot's of good resources there. www.martinloganowners.comThese speakers need lots of room behind them, and/or, acoustic absorption, or like I've done with using extreme toe-in such that the "flash light" reflection is at 1/4 from the outer edge of the panel, not the inner third as recommended if the speaker panels are about 5' from the wall. Using my setup the back of the woofer boxes are about 1' from the wall so the panels are about 3' from the wall but angled such that I get no direct reflection from them at the MLP, and the rear wave is aimed away from center so it becomes fairly inert as it bounces around the room. If there are side walls nearby then the rear wave will still need to be contended with. My Right Expression is a few feet from the right wall so I've got absorption behind it on the front wall and some on the right wall, so, no problemo. I'll be very interested in how you like the amp/speaker combo. OK this is solid intel as I do not have that many hours into them so will give it more time. Question, how do I run ARC, I assume I need to order something off of ML to accomplish this? I have a mic that I use for DIRAC however How do I gain access to the actual software. Do I do that through ML? You'll need the ML PBK kit (go to ML, subwoofers, then to bottom of the page) which is $119, but everything ML is going up in price August 1. If you join MLO and order from Shawn at Davinci Media you'll get the most discount just for members of the forum. The kit comes with a mic specific for ARC and ML speakers/subs, as the mic is specifically for low frequencies. It is worth whatever they want for it because it works great! The usb cable that is supplied connects to the port on the back of the woofer box and turns on the amps for the woofers so keep the outboard amps off. Then you can run a network cable between both speakers so it's easy to calibrate both speakers at the same time automatically with the app on the computer. So, it's mic to computer, computer/usb cable to speaker1, speaker1 network cable to speaker2. Run the cal app and 5 mic positions (the minimum the app will allow) and voila' ! You'll get better bass! |
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Post by omuracada on Jul 25, 2021 12:42:32 GMT -5
OK this is solid intel as I do not have that many hours into them so will give it more time. Question, how do I run ARC, I assume I need to order something off of ML to accomplish this? I have a mic that I use for DIRAC however How do I gain access to the actual software. Do I do that through ML? You'll need the ML PBK kit (go to ML, subwoofers, then to bottom of the page) which is $119, but everything ML is going up in price August 1. If you join MLO and order from Shawn at Davinci Media you'll get the most discount just for members of the forum. The kit comes with a mic specific for ARC and ML speakers/subs, as the mic is specifically for low frequencies. It is worth whatever they want for it because it works great! The usb cable that is supplied connects to the port on the back of the woofer box and turns on the amps for the woofers so keep the outboard amps off. Then you can run a network cable between both speakers so it's easy to calibrate both speakers at the same time automatically with the app on the computer. So, it's mic to computer, computer/usb cable to speaker1, speaker1 network cable to speaker2. Run the cal app and 5 mic positions (the minimum the app will allow) and voila' ! You'll get better bass! Thank you!!!! I just ordered it. Question, do you keep the subwoofer on your speakers at 0db? I currently tried putting it at +2db. WHen I run ARC I assume I should push it to 0db and let it tell me where it needs to be? Thanks again for your guidance. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2021 13:35:20 GMT -5
You'll need the ML PBK kit (go to ML, subwoofers, then to bottom of the page) which is $119, but everything ML is going up in price August 1. If you join MLO and order from Shawn at Davinci Media you'll get the most discount just for members of the forum. The kit comes with a mic specific for ARC and ML speakers/subs, as the mic is specifically for low frequencies. It is worth whatever they want for it because it works great! The usb cable that is supplied connects to the port on the back of the woofer box and turns on the amps for the woofers so keep the outboard amps off. Then you can run a network cable between both speakers so it's easy to calibrate both speakers at the same time automatically with the app on the computer. So, it's mic to computer, computer/usb cable to speaker1, speaker1 network cable to speaker2. Run the cal app and 5 mic positions (the minimum the app will allow) and voila' ! You'll get better bass! Thank you!!!! I just ordered it. Question, do you keep the subwoofer on your speakers at 0db? I currently tried putting it at +2db. WHen I run ARC I assume I should push it to 0db and let it tell me where it needs to be? Thanks again for your guidance. No prob. The ARC calibration will use defaults internally no matter how all the controls are set. In my room I've never gone above 0.0dB, but that's going to depend on room and setup. YMMV. ARC won't "tell" you what to set the different controls to, that's up to you. I found that a little bit does a lot. I went for over a year before I began experimenting with adding subwoofers. My setup right now is great, but rather complicated to explain, and I don't want to confuse you, it's not a setup you'll find when searching. I suggest living with them for a while to get used to them in your space. The number one tweak I always recommend is speaker placement and orientation and MLP placement. These setups are free and have the greatest effect on sound and soundstage. If you can't move the speakers, move your seat. Watch this video for great help about speaker placement. I took a couple days to just move the speakers and my seat, that's all I did for two days. Then I added absorption but I didn't need much. (Fast forward to today and I've added DIY bass absorbers.) Go to 18:05 for the actual speaker placement info and use the song he recommends. |
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Post by omuracada on Jul 25, 2021 14:19:29 GMT -5
Thank you!!!! I just ordered it. Question, do you keep the subwoofer on your speakers at 0db? I currently tried putting it at +2db. WHen I run ARC I assume I should push it to 0db and let it tell me where it needs to be? Thanks again for your guidance. No prob. The ARC calibration will use defaults internally no matter how all the controls are set. In my room I've never gone above 0.0dB, but that's going to depend on room and setup. YMMV. ARC won't "tell" you what to set the different controls to, that's up to you. I found that a little bit does a lot. I went for over a year before I began experimenting with adding subwoofers. My setup right now is great, but rather complicated to explain, and I don't want to confuse you, it's not a setup you'll find when searching. I suggest living with them for a while to get used to them in your space. The number one tweak I always recommend is speaker placement and orientation and MLP placement. These setups are free and have the greatest effect on sound and soundstage. If you can't move the speakers, move your seat. Watch this video for great help about speaker placement. I took a couple days to just move the speakers and my seat, that's all I did for two days. Then I added absorption but I didn't need much. (Fast forward to today and I've added DIY bass absorbers.) Go to 18:05 for the actual speaker placement info and use the song he recommends. Wow! This is super helpful, and honestly I can tend to get ahead of myself!!! I am going to take your suggestion and play with them a bit. After about 50 hours I will run ARC and then again at 100 hours. When I do run it I will do so with everything set to 0db. One other question is do you set yours to Large or small speakers? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Jul 25, 2021 15:05:18 GMT -5
Wow! This is super helpful, and honestly I can tend to get ahead of myself!!! I am going to take your suggestion and play with them a bit. After about 50 hours I will run ARC and then again at 100 hours. When I do run it I will do so with everything set to 0db. One other question is do you set yours to Large or small speakers? You don't need to worry about where the controls are set when running ARC. ARC only does it one way, with all defaults, no matter how the controls are set. So you could have the Bass Control set to +10dB on one speaker and -10dB on the other, but ARC will only use 0.0dB while calibrating. So ARC doesn't care. This way there is no way any of us can goof up the calibration. Ok, here's where I need to give full disclosure. I'm kinda nuts on some things, but as I've found, I'm not alone, and there are folks out there with way more complicated setups than me. With that said, go to Finding Subwoofer to see my experimental tinkerings over the last year or so. After about six months of trying out anything I could find out about or think up I started the thread to both document and discuss what I found during this adventure. I use 2 ML Dynamo subs for each Expression as "extra woofers", and they're wired to each Expression using the speaker level connections on the subs. Alignment was fun for each Expression and its pair of subs. Then I found the need to add a subwoofer at the back of the room to help smooth out a big dip between 60-70Hz for when both Left and Right channels play the same Mono bass and were cancelling out in that range. It's not perfect, but it is much better than without that fifth sub. The bottom sub in each pair is also used for Bass Management and LFE when watching multi-channel stuff. The top sub in each pair doesn't do anything other than its primary job of being an extra woofer for the Expression it's connected to. So my system is 7.1.4. Fronts Large. Center Large with an active XO to limit the low frequencies going to the small woofers and using a dedicated subwoofer just for the Center Channel. All other channels Small. Left Sub Output: Mono, and this goes to 3 subs. Center Sub Output: LFE, and this goes to the same 3 subs. But the simple answer is. I setup the Expressions as Large. |
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Post by omuracada on Jul 25, 2021 15:15:09 GMT -5
Fantastic as I will read the other post. I do plan to nab another svs 3000 and add it to the back of the room however what your doing is much different and it looks as though I have a lot to learn!! When I get the ARC package I will run it for a baseline and tell you what I think... I am also starting to read your other post you linked to.
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Post by marcl on Jul 25, 2021 15:19:30 GMT -5
Fantastic as I will read the other post. I do plan to nab another svs 3000 and add it to the back of the room however what your doing is much different and it looks as though I have a lot to learn!! When I get the ARC package I will run it for a baseline and tell you what I think... I am also starting to read your other post you linked to. ttocs will show you how to make a 7.13.4 system  |
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Post by omuracada on Sept 12, 2023 19:41:36 GMT -5
Fantastic as I will read the other post. I do plan to nab another svs 3000 and add it to the back of the room however what your doing is much different and it looks as though I have a lot to learn!! When I get the ARC package I will run it for a baseline and tell you what I think... I am also starting to read your other post you linked to. Ok so I am now looking at the Marantz AV10 for a new upgrade from my Emotive, however I just saw this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=atAE6ADxYkw if you take a look does this mean I can set my expression 13a's to large and route LFE through them as well as to the two Large Subs I have? I assume I will then rerun Dirac and all good. Am I thinking about this correctly? My current set up is Fronts: Expressions 13a's, Center: Focus ESL C18 External Subs: 2x Dynamo 1600X Backs: ElectroMotion ESL Running everything through a emotiva XMC-2 Fronts are on their own XPA HC-1 High Current Monoblock Amplifier Backs and Center are running through XPA-7 Gen3 7 Channel Once I find a house I plan to run a full set up with atoms and will need to purchase more amps. If anyone has suggestions on amps for the new Marantz AV10 instead of what I have let me know. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Sept 12, 2023 21:02:20 GMT -5
Fantastic as I will read the other post. I do plan to nab another svs 3000 and add it to the back of the room however what your doing is much different and it looks as though I have a lot to learn!! When I get the ARC package I will run it for a baseline and tell you what I think... I am also starting to read your other post you linked to. Ok so I am now looking at the Marantz AV10 for a new upgrade from my Emotive, however I just saw this video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=atAE6ADxYkw if you take a look does this mean I can set my expression 13a's to large and route LFE through them as well as to the two Large Subs I have? I assume I will then rerun Dirac and all good. Am I thinking about this correctly? My current set up is Fronts: Expressions 13a's, Center: Focus ESL C18 External Subs: 2x Dynamo 1600X Backs: ElectroMotion ESL Running everything through a emotiva XMC-2 Fronts are on their own XPA HC-1 High Current Monoblock Amplifier Backs and Center are running through XPA-7 Gen3 7 Channel Once I find a house I plan to run a full set up with atoms and will need to purchase more amps. If anyone has suggestions on amps for the new Marantz AV10 instead of what I have let me know. Sorry, but I think it's very dangerous to route extremely low frequency sound effects LFE at +10dB levels into the Expressions. Our Expressions can go very low, 22Hz, and even lower, but these woofers (and yes, ML calls them "subwoofers", but I don't know any subwoofers completely capable of running up to 300Hz and sounding as good as these woofers do and still provide room filling 20Hz booms!) really are not primarily designed to take the abuse that +10dB LFE will push through. Play anything through your Expressions at the loudest volume level you can, then add +10dB to that and keep playing. That's how subs play the LFE channel. I just think the Expression woofers don't have the excursion capability to perform without damage. One control that can be used to "soften" the blow is the Bass Control on the Expression by setting it to -10dB. This is a Shelf Filter, and if set for -10dB will affect frequencies up to 150Hz per the ML spec. You can experiment, but pleeeeeeeese be careful. Pretty much since around the first year anniversary of having my Expressions I've found ways to reduce the low frequency load on the woofers and let subwoofers handle most of the very low frequencies. I want to protect the woofers so they keep sounding great above 100Hz where I need them to sound great. edit: So ok, I stopped close to 11 minutes into the video, and now hear that there's a control to reduce the LFE going into the Large Speakers. This changes my reply above except for the caution, which will remain. Take Gene's recommendation that unless the woofers in a speaker are VERY CAPABLE of producing super low bass, use this feature in the Marantz cautiously. |
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Post by omuracada on Sept 12, 2023 21:43:53 GMT -5
As always I appreciate your candid and quick feedback. I thought it would be a great way to get more out of the subs in the expressions 13a's, however not at the cost of damaging them. Just appeared that it could be a cool feature, however I will look to leave it alone. I will set to large and let my two external subs handle the LFE. Still debating between the Marantz AV10 and the Anthem 90.
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