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Post by Ex_Vintage on Aug 5, 2021 22:25:39 GMT -5
I recently acquired some new Tekton speakers and they are excellent (beyond my expectations), but I have a problem. After 4 or so months with my Enzo 2.7's and breakin and position tweaking and some Herbies Gliders, I find a I have a streaming problem. I recently re-started playing some CD's and the Tektons are so revealing that I have discovered nuances in the music that I do not hear when I play it through my Bluesound Node 2i from my PC. All my PC music is FLAC files and I have the Node connected via 5G WiFi. Is it the PC, the Node or the WiFi connection that is degrading the sound? Both the Node and the CD player are connected to my pre (XMC-1) through a SMSL DAC, so the DAC and my pre are not an issue. Any suggestions? |
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Post by drtrey3 on Aug 6, 2021 9:15:05 GMT -5
I would hard wire the node or play from a connected source to see if it is the Wifi.
Trey
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Post by mgbpuff on Aug 6, 2021 9:35:11 GMT -5
The difference may come from the different SMSL DAC inputs being used. I guess you are using a coax input and a toslink input. I would guess that the toslink connected device would not sound as good.
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Aug 6, 2021 9:37:47 GMT -5
2 great suggestions. I will try both the hardwire ethernet and swap the various inputs on the SMSL DAC. Thx.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 6, 2021 10:15:47 GMT -5
If two sources are playing the same audio information, through the same DAC, then the result should sound exactly the same. If you ripped those CDs yourself, and didn't do any extra processing or sample rate conversion, then the audio data in the FLAC files should be exactly identical to what's on the CD. (And most modern CD ripping programs verify this very carefully.)
Under those conditions, the only reason for any difference in sound would be if the sources produced significantly different amounts of jitter, AND the DAC was sensitive to jitter.
If you use an asynchronous USB input on the DAC, and it's working properly, then the data is being re-clocked by the USB input on the DAC, which should eliminate any differences between sources. This is also true for data that is sent via Ethernet, but is NOT true for old-style non-asynchronous USB inputs, and is NOT true for Coax or Optical inputs. Differences in the amount of jitter present on your various sources, or the cables between them, MAY be audible with Coax or Optical - depending on how sensitive the DAC itself is sensitive to jitter.
Some DACs, including those that use ESS Sabre DAC chips, have internal "jitter reduction" that works for all inputs, but how well it works will depend on various different factors. Some other DACs use something called an ASRC (asynchronous sample rate converter) to reduce or eliminate the effects of jitter on all of their inputs. But many DACs still only have jitter reduction on their USB inputs.
You might also want to double check the software you're using to stream that audio from your computer to the Bluesound device... If you're using DLNA, or something like that, then it may be resampling the audio, with or without notifying you... Or the Bluesound could be altering the sound in some way...
You say you're comparing the results of "streaming" to "playing the CD"... If you're playing the CD from a CD player, into the Coax input on your DAC, then the CD player could be introducing audible jitter... And, if you're playing the CD on your computer, via USB, but you aren't using WASAPI mode, then your computer may be resampling the audio... And, if you're using something like DLNA to stream the audio to the Bluesound, then THAT could be altering the sound as well...
All of these could account for an audible difference in sound.
(And, of course, if one or the other ends up being even 0.5 dB louder, then that one will probably sound "better" too.)
I recently acquired some new Tekton speakers and they are excellent (beyond my expectations), but I have a problem. After 4 or so months with my Enzo 2.7's and breakin and position tweaking and some Herbies Gliders, I find a I have a streaming problem. I recently re-started playing some CD's and the Tektons are so revealing that I have discovered nuances in the music that I do not hear when I play it through my Bluesound Node 2i from my PC. All my PC music is FLAC files and I have the Node connected via 5G WiFi. Is it the PC, the Node or the WiFi connection that is degrading the sound? Both the Node and the CD player are connected to my pre (XMC-1) through a SMSL DAC, so the DAC and my pre are not an issue. Any suggestions? |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Aug 6, 2021 11:42:54 GMT -5
If two sources are playing the same audio information, through the same DAC, then the result should sound exactly the same. If you ripped those CDs yourself, and didn't do any extra processing or sample rate conversion, then the audio data in the FLAC files should be exactly identical to what's on the CD. (And most modern CD ripping programs verify this very carefully.)
Under those conditions, the only reason for any difference in sound would be if the sources produced significantly different amounts of jitter, AND the DAC was sensitive to jitter.
If you use an asynchronous USB input on the DAC, and it's working properly, then the data is being re-clocked by the USB input on the DAC, which should eliminate any differences between sources. This is also true for data that is sent via Ethernet, but is NOT true for old-style non-asynchronous USB inputs, and is NOT true for Coax or Optical inputs. Differences in the amount of jitter present on your various sources, or the cables between them, MAY be audible with Coax or Optical - depending on how sensitive the DAC itself is sensitive to jitter.
Some DACs, including those that use ESS Sabre DAC chips, have internal "jitter reduction" that works for all inputs, but how well it works will depend on various different factors. Some other DACs use something called an ASRC (asynchronous sample rate converter) to reduce or eliminate the effects of jitter on all of their inputs. But many DACs still only have jitter reduction on their USB inputs.
You might also want to double check the software you're using to stream that audio from your computer to the Bluesound device... If you're using DLNA, or something like that, then it may be resampling the audio, with or without notifying you... Or the Bluesound could be altering the sound in some way...
You say you're comparing the results of "streaming" to "playing the CD"... If you're playing the CD from a CD player, into the Coax input on your DAC, then the CD player could be introducing audible jitter... And, if you're playing the CD on your computer, via USB, but you aren't using WASAPI mode, then your computer may be resampling the audio... And, if you're using something like DLNA to stream the audio to the Bluesound, then THAT could be altering the sound as well...
All of these could account for an audible difference in sound.
(And, of course, if one or the other ends up being even 0.5 dB louder, then that one will probably sound "better" too.)
I recently acquired some new Tekton speakers and they are excellent (beyond my expectations), but I have a problem. After 4 or so months with my Enzo 2.7's and breakin and position tweaking and some Herbies Gliders, I find a I have a streaming problem. I recently re-started playing some CD's and the Tektons are so revealing that I have discovered nuances in the music that I do not hear when I play it through my Bluesound Node 2i from my PC. All my PC music is FLAC files and I have the Node connected via 5G WiFi. Is it the PC, the Node or the WiFi connection that is degrading the sound? Both the Node and the CD player are connected to my pre (XMC-1) through a SMSL DAC, so the DAC and my pre are not an issue. Any suggestions? I am using a Win 10 PC with MediaMonkey to rip my CD's as FLAC files at 44.1/16. The Bluesound Node 2i accesses the FLAC files via 5G WiFi. The Node is connected to the SMSL DAC via coax. In my "gold standard" the CD player (CD-100) is being used as a transport sending digital content via Toslink to the SMSL SU-9 DAC where the DAC is doing the conversion to analog. The analog is fed via XLR connections to the XMC-1 pre-pro and the pre-pro is running that signal through direct. I believe I am most solid from the DAC to the speakers. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 6, 2021 13:55:43 GMT -5
If you think your CDs sound better then play them. Or don't worry about it and enjoy the music. It's not really difficult...  |
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 6, 2021 14:25:32 GMT -5
If you think your CDs sound better then play them. Or don't worry about it and enjoy the music. It's not really difficult... Oh yes it is. Otherwise what fun is it to be an audiophile??? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Aug 6, 2021 15:37:04 GMT -5
I'm not really familiar with Media Monkey but I assume that, since it was ripping the CDs to FLAC files, it wouldn't have deliberately altered them.
(I tried it years ago and it seems to be a pretty "normal" program in that regard.)
However, another part of the equation is EXACTLY how you're getting the files from the computer to the Bluesound Node... (It's not as simple as "just sending the files to the Bluesound".) If you have some sort of file share set up on the computer - and the Bluesound is accessing them that way - then they should be unaltered. However, if you have some sort of software that is acting as a server then it may well be altering or resampling the files before sending them out. If you're using a Plex server then that will depend on several configuration settings... And, if you're using a DLNA server, you may or may not have much control over that... (DLNA servers are quite commonly seen as part of various player programs... and some of them alter the audio stream without telling you or allowing you to configure them not to.)
(And, even worse, whether they're doing so may change depending on things like how busy your network is.)
The first thing I would suggest is, if your DAC has a USB input, temporarily connecting it directly to the computer that way. Set your favorite player program to use Windows WASAPI mode, play a few files directly from the computer to the DAC, and see how they sound that way. If they sound identical to the CD that way then the problem lies somewhere in the streaming part of things. (It could involve the Bluesound or the program you're using to stream the files to it.)
And, if the files sound equally "un-nuanced" that way then the problem could lie with the files themselves or with the Bluesound...
Another easy thing to try would be to connect the USB output on the computer directly to the USB Stream input on your XMC-1. The XMC-1 has very nice DACs... so that will let you hear how the files really sound. (Be sure to select a player program that supports WASAPI mode... and select it as your output mode.)
It's also worth noting that at least some of SMSL's DACs use the ESS Sabre DAC chip... And, at least in some implementations, those tend to have an overly bright sound, with seemingly exaggerated detail. (That difference ranges from "barely noticeable" to "downright annoying" - depending on other implementation details.)
If two sources are playing the same audio information, through the same DAC, then the result should sound exactly the same. If you ripped those CDs yourself, and didn't do any extra processing or sample rate conversion, then the audio data in the FLAC files should be exactly identical to what's on the CD. (And most modern CD ripping programs verify this very carefully.)
Under those conditions, the only reason for any difference in sound would be if the sources produced significantly different amounts of jitter, AND the DAC was sensitive to jitter.
If you use an asynchronous USB input on the DAC, and it's working properly, then the data is being re-clocked by the USB input on the DAC, which should eliminate any differences between sources. This is also true for data that is sent via Ethernet, but is NOT true for old-style non-asynchronous USB inputs, and is NOT true for Coax or Optical inputs. Differences in the amount of jitter present on your various sources, or the cables between them, MAY be audible with Coax or Optical - depending on how sensitive the DAC itself is sensitive to jitter.
Some DACs, including those that use ESS Sabre DAC chips, have internal "jitter reduction" that works for all inputs, but how well it works will depend on various different factors. Some other DACs use something called an ASRC (asynchronous sample rate converter) to reduce or eliminate the effects of jitter on all of their inputs. But many DACs still only have jitter reduction on their USB inputs.
You might also want to double check the software you're using to stream that audio from your computer to the Bluesound device... If you're using DLNA, or something like that, then it may be resampling the audio, with or without notifying you... Or the Bluesound could be altering the sound in some way...
You say you're comparing the results of "streaming" to "playing the CD"... If you're playing the CD from a CD player, into the Coax input on your DAC, then the CD player could be introducing audible jitter... And, if you're playing the CD on your computer, via USB, but you aren't using WASAPI mode, then your computer may be resampling the audio... And, if you're using something like DLNA to stream the audio to the Bluesound, then THAT could be altering the sound as well...
All of these could account for an audible difference in sound.
(And, of course, if one or the other ends up being even 0.5 dB louder, then that one will probably sound "better" too.)
I am using a Win 10 PC with MediaMonkey to rip my CD's as FLAC files at 44.1/16. The Bluesound Node 2i accesses the FLAC files via 5G WiFi. The Node is connected to the SMSL DAC via coax. In my "gold standard" the CD player (CD-100) is being used as a transport sending digital content via Toslink to the SMSL SU-9 DAC where the DAC is doing the conversion to analog. The analog is fed via XLR connections to the XMC-1 pre-pro and the pre-pro is running that signal through direct. I believe I am most solid from the DAC to the speakers. |
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Aug 6, 2021 22:13:59 GMT -5
If you think your CDs sound better then play them. Or don't worry about it and enjoy the music. It's not really difficult... No one would argue the simplicity and convenience of PC / phone / tablet control over a music library vs physically changing a disc. |
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DYohn
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Posts: 18,486
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Post by DYohn on Aug 7, 2021 9:20:48 GMT -5
If you think your CDs sound better then play them. Or don't worry about it and enjoy the music. It's not really difficult... No one would argue the simplicity and convenience of PC / phone / tablet control over a music library vs physically changing a disc. No one is. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2023 17:41:58 GMT -5
Is the music stored on a HDD or SSD? Wondering if you could find a buffer setting in your software. Ideally, it shouldn't sound different.
Only other thought could be EMI reaching your sound card from the computer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2023 15:54:22 GMT -5
This was recently posted. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yZOQZudfqcMight be ideal trying to setup a UPnP client on your computer so only data is sent to your DAC without computer interface. Not sure I fully understand how your setup is either. Kind of glad I never tried to rip my whole collection. In the past I only ripped CDs for car playback back before Apple Play. Never had the patience to rip my whole CD collection. |
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Oct 17, 2023 16:10:38 GMT -5
This was recently posted. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yZOQZudfqcMight be ideal trying to setup a UPnP client on your computer so only data is sent to your DAC without computer interface. Not sure I fully understand how your setup is either. Kind of glad I never tried to rip my whole collection. In the past I only ripped CDs for car playback back before Apple Play. Never had the patience to rip my whole CD collection. I ripped my whole collection. It actually didn’t bother me. It fed the OCD part of me for a few weeks. LOL My wife thought I was nuts though |
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Post by creimes on Oct 17, 2023 19:16:24 GMT -5
I recently purchased the SMSL DO400, so far I have only listened through it using the headphone output, I have been using either my M2 Mac Mini or my custom build PC, both connect via USB to the DAC and Balanced jack to my headphones, so far it is has really been excellent to listen to, more resolving and detailed compared to my Grace SDAC and THX AAA setup, yet very natural and smooth. Do you have a way to connect a Mac or PC and the CD-100 directly to the SMSL or the XMC-1 to compare, it may be more of a fair comparison.
I use Tidal for streaming but I also have my library ripped to a external SSD that connects to my Mac or PC and I use JRiver for playback of the files, I actually recently sold my CD-100 as I prefer the sound of my library played back how I have explained.
Chad
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Post by PaulBe on Oct 18, 2023 8:11:54 GMT -5
If two sources are playing the same audio information, through the same DAC, then the result should sound exactly the same. If you ripped those CDs yourself, and didn't do any extra processing or sample rate conversion, then the audio data in the FLAC files should be exactly identical to what's on the CD. (And most modern CD ripping programs verify this very carefully.)
Under those conditions, the only reason for any difference in sound would be if the sources produced significantly different amounts of jitter, AND the DAC was sensitive to jitter.
If you use an asynchronous USB input on the DAC, and it's working properly, then the data is being re-clocked by the USB input on the DAC, which should eliminate any differences between sources. This is also true for data that is sent via Ethernet, but is NOT true for old-style non-asynchronous USB inputs, and is NOT true for Coax or Optical inputs. Differences in the amount of jitter present on your various sources, or the cables between them, MAY be audible with Coax or Optical - depending on how sensitive the DAC itself is sensitive to jitter.
Some DACs, including those that use ESS Sabre DAC chips, have internal "jitter reduction" that works for all inputs, but how well it works will depend on various different factors. Some other DACs use something called an ASRC (asynchronous sample rate converter) to reduce or eliminate the effects of jitter on all of their inputs. But many DACs still only have jitter reduction on their USB inputs.
You might also want to double check the software you're using to stream that audio from your computer to the Bluesound device... If you're using DLNA, or something like that, then it may be resampling the audio, with or without notifying you... Or the Bluesound could be altering the sound in some way...
You say you're comparing the results of "streaming" to "playing the CD"... If you're playing the CD from a CD player, into the Coax input on your DAC, then the CD player could be introducing audible jitter... And, if you're playing the CD on your computer, via USB, but you aren't using WASAPI mode, then your computer may be resampling the audio... And, if you're using something like DLNA to stream the audio to the Bluesound, then THAT could be altering the sound as well...
All of these could account for an audible difference in sound.
(And, of course, if one or the other ends up being even 0.5 dB louder, then that one will probably sound "better" too.)
I recently acquired some new Tekton speakers and they are excellent (beyond my expectations), but I have a problem. After 4 or so months with my Enzo 2.7's and breakin and position tweaking and some Herbies Gliders, I find a I have a streaming problem. I recently re-started playing some CD's and the Tektons are so revealing that I have discovered nuances in the music that I do not hear when I play it through my Bluesound Node 2i from my PC. All my PC music is FLAC files and I have the Node connected via 5G WiFi. Is it the PC, the Node or the WiFi connection that is degrading the sound? Both the Node and the CD player are connected to my pre (XMC-1) through a SMSL DAC, so the DAC and my pre are not an issue. Any suggestions? Does the Emotiva XDA-3 have jitter reduction/elimination on all of its digital inputs? Not just the USB input? Is there jitter reduction on the all of the digital inputs for the RMC? Which of the RMC inputs have jitter reduction? Which ones do not have it? |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Oct 18, 2023 10:23:07 GMT -5
Jitter, how it actually affects the audio signal, and how you can remove it, or avoid it in the first place, is a very complex topic. The short answers to your questions are as follows... - The USB audio input in the XDA-3 is an asynchronous USB input, so the clock is controlled by the DAC, which serves to minimize jitter on that input. - The Sabre DAC chip we use in the XDA-3 also has ESS's Time Domain Jitter Elimination feature. (This is a feature of the DAC chip itself and works for all digital audio signals being converted by the DAC chip to remove jitter) - All digital audio on the RMC-1 passes through an interstage ASRC (which is basically a data re-clocker that reduces or eliminates jitter). ............................. Does the Emotiva XDA-3 have jitter reduction/elimination on all of its digital inputs? Not just the USB input? Is there jitter reduction on the all of the digital inputs for the RMC? Which of the RMC inputs have jitter reduction? Which ones do not have it? |
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Post by PaulBe on Oct 18, 2023 11:33:11 GMT -5
Jitter, how it actually affects the audio signal, and how you can remove it, or avoid it in the first place, is a very complex topic. The short answers to your questions are as follows... - The USB audio input in the XDA-3 is an asynchronous USB input, so the clock is controlled by the DAC, which serves to minimize jitter on that input. - The Sabre DAC chip we use in the XDA-3 also has ESS's Time Domain Jitter Elimination feature. (This is a feature of the DAC chip itself and works for all digital audio signals being converted by the DAC chip to remove jitter) - All digital audio on the RMC-1 passes through an interstage ASRC (which is basically a data re-clocker that reduces or eliminates jitter). Does the Emotiva XDA-3 have jitter reduction/elimination on all of its digital inputs? Not just the USB input? Is there jitter reduction on the all of the digital inputs for the RMC? Which of the RMC inputs have jitter reduction? Which ones do not have it? Thanks Keith. Your short answer is clear and helpful. Just read that you had a recent birthday. Happy Birthday! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 18, 2023 12:17:17 GMT -5
If two sources are playing the same audio information, through the same DAC, then the result should sound exactly the same... Yes- it should, but in my experience, it rarely does. And I mean rarely. My experience is that I normally get the best sounds directly from the source CDs. The more generations of the digits, the more streamers, or the more wireless conversions/deconversions, the audibly poorer the sound. You can "prove" that the digits coming off the streamer, wireless, or optical terminal are absolutely bit-perfect clones of the source CD, but I say they SOUND different. I'll take it even a step further - the more processing of the digits, the worse the sound. I contend that ANY CODEC applied to the bitstream degrades the sound. MP-anything, FLAC, ALAC, APE, optical encode-decode, wireless, you name it - ALL degrade the sound. Is it audible? To many, maybe not. But the better your system, and the better your ears, the more audible the deterioration. If any of the encode-decode processing sounds OK to you, then feel free to use it. It's a free country. I want uncompressed WAV if I've got to rip the source CD. But to my ears, the less you mess with the digits, the better the sound. Think about it - If a CD is your source, is ANYTHING else actually going to improve it? Boomzilla |
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Post by SteveH on Oct 18, 2023 13:55:23 GMT -5
I would try using Ethernet instead of WiFi and see if you notice a difference. I have all of my gear on Ethernet (including my Node 2i) and stay away from WiFi, except for remotes.
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