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Post by audiobill on Sept 12, 2021 10:21:04 GMT -5
Only matters at clipping, and much worse for transistors in that event.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Sept 12, 2021 10:28:25 GMT -5
Has nothing to do with clipping but audibility at normal listening levels. Bill, we all know you’re a toob or nothing guy. We get it.
Russ
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Post by audiobill on Sept 12, 2021 10:29:45 GMT -5
Also an experienced electronics tech….and sport a 452 wpc Mc sand amp.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2021 10:54:12 GMT -5
Just a quick thought for what it’s worth. Normally when I buy something I check multiple sources for reviews, opinions, etc including magazine, online sites, consumer sites such as CR and sales reviews from Amazon, Crutchfield, etc. before deciding what to buy. I know that many follow ASR and swear by the SINAD measurement to make their choice, but I would think you would use this along with other reviews to get a true picture. I think you limit yourself by just relying on one site or review. Just my .02, take it with a grain of salt. I have no idea why anyone created the narrative that people who consider ASR reviews only go by SINAD measurements. For example, the PrePro in question was also buggy. And as you suggested many reviewers also note the PrePro in question is too frustrating to live with long term.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 12, 2021 11:37:43 GMT -5
Just a quick thought for what it’s worth. Normally when I buy something I check multiple sources for reviews, opinions, etc including magazine, online sites, consumer sites such as CR and sales reviews from Amazon, Crutchfield, etc. before deciding what to buy. I know that many follow ASR and swear by the SINAD measurement to make their choice, but I would think you would use this along with other reviews to get a true picture. I think you limit yourself by just relying on one site or review. Just my .02, take it with a grain of salt. I have no idea why anyone created the narrative that people who consider ASR reviews only go by SINAD measurements. For example, the PrePro in question was also buggy. And as you suggested many reviewers also note the PrePro in question is too frustrating to live with long term. But, to my knowledge, most of the ‘buggy’ information is anecdotal, and not part of the official review. There are people there who imply conditions are normal’ when they only happen under specific circumstances that are easily avoidable. Unless I’ve missed where ASR or others are now giving a ‘Buggy’ rating? Like anywhere these days there are those with an axe to grind, and as we are discussing measurements in this thread, it seems to be drifting.
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Post by donh50 on Sept 12, 2021 12:15:13 GMT -5
Off topic: If you dig into the device physics, the Maclaurin expansion for distortion of a tube is factorial and that of a bipolar transistor exponential. For the same operating point, a tube will exhibit lower distortion than a transistor. As others have said, the difference is essentially from the design, i.e. circuit topology, output transformers (or lack of), amount of gain and feedback, and so forth, not because tubes are intrinsically higher in distortion than tubes. The opposite is true. But rarely realized in tube amplifiers for the reasons already stated. I will note that complementary tubes are rarely if ever seen, comparable to P-channel and N-channel bipolar of field-effect transistors, so building a differential or push-pull tube amplifier requires a transformer or significant amount of extra circuitry, at least IME. Tube circuits also tend to have lower gain, which reduces the amount of feedback you can apply to reduce distortion.
FWIWFM - Don
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 12, 2021 12:55:57 GMT -5
OK, more off topic, but this discussion reminded me of one of my earliest posts in The Lounge (just over 9 years ago), which tried to correlate music and audio to the harmonic discussion. It's primary point was why even order harmonics sound better. emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/427119/thread
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Post by audioslave on Sept 12, 2021 13:33:48 GMT -5
Just thought I'd share my experience. I have a dedicated theater room with treatments that was converted from a dedicated 2 ch room. Although I was initially impressed with the sound with movies, the sound with music was flat and un-involving. I have a Twisted Pear DAC that I can run straight into my amp and the difference is not subtle. Immediately apparent in just the first few seconds of music to my wife. I had anticipated that the XMC-2 might not match the TPA DAC and just figured that I would just switch the setup when I really wanted to listen to music.
I had initially zeroed in on the XMC-2 based upon the AVR architecture articles at Secrets of Home Theater (https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/avr-audio-video-receiver-build-quality-part-iv-the-emotiva-xmc-1-ssp-a-paradigm-of-a-pre-pro-implementation/ ) Also ironically the back and forth with ASR on the measurements of the RMC...since Emotiva was open about the issues and made a correction. I figured if the same thing occurred with the XMC-2, then Emo might be able to fix it.
I think one thing that might have been lost here....Emotiva's measurements match ASR and are different from the RMC if the levels are the same. Another reason I picked the XMC-2 was on the premise that it would be as good as the RMC...and it isn't. And for those that think that this level of distortion is academic, it isn't, its audible (at least in my setup for music).
Still sounds darn good on movies.... I would recommend a dedicated DAC/PRE if music is very important to you.
Mike
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2021 13:33:53 GMT -5
I have no idea why anyone created the narrative that people who consider ASR reviews only go by SINAD measurements. For example, the PrePro in question was also buggy. And as you suggested many reviewers also note the PrePro in question is too frustrating to live with long term. But, to my knowledge, most of the ‘buggy’ information is anecdotal, and not part of the official review. There are people there who imply conditions are normal’ when they only happen under specific circumstances that are easily avoidable. Unless I’ve missed where ASR or others are now giving a ‘Buggy’ rating? Like anywhere these days there are those with an axe to grind, and as we are discussing measurements in this thread, it seems to be drifting. I think the sluggish operation was a pretty good indicator though not a complete picture of Emotiva's bugginess.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 12, 2021 13:43:36 GMT -5
But, to my knowledge, most of the ‘buggy’ information is anecdotal, and not part of the official review. There are people there who imply conditions are normal’ when they only happen under specific circumstances that are easily avoidable. Unless I’ve missed where ASR or others are now giving a ‘Buggy’ rating? Like anywhere these days there are those with an axe to grind, and as we are discussing measurements in this thread, it seems to be drifting. I think the sluggish operation was a pretty good indicator though not a complete picture of Emotiva's bugginess. ... and yes, if you cycle through the Input setup and go through UNUSED HDMI Inputs, it is sluggish as the processor tries to lock onto a non-existent device, experience shows us how to quickly go through those inputs (and those menus aren't used regularly). However, implications by some that the menu system takes 30 seconds between selections are blatantly misleading, and even with the delays introduced by my Harmony Hub I find most other menu navigation to be to be effortless. This however has not always been the case, though has for some time.
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Post by mgbpuff on Sept 12, 2021 16:12:16 GMT -5
Regardless of any topology tubes typically have much higher (audible) levels of second harmonic distortion with respect to solid state. Easily verified by checking out some of JAs measurements at Stereophile. Russ Wrong. You didn't read what I wrote. Fact is, ss devices can be very non-linear but because they are more easily feedback corrected, their circuits typically have less distortion than tube circuits. There are many different tubes, some with extremely linear gain / frequency characteristics. I bet that there are no solid state devices that would approach the uncompenssted linearity of many tubes in the audio range.
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Post by audiobill on Sept 12, 2021 17:01:01 GMT -5
Correct, but too much feedback spoils tone and dynamics. The “vintage” receiver brands, in the quest for better distortion specs were notorious for this.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Sept 12, 2021 19:23:50 GMT -5
Regardless of any topology tubes typically have much higher (audible) levels of second harmonic distortion with respect to solid state. Easily verified by checking out some of JAs measurements at Stereophile. Russ Wrong. You didn't read what I wrote. Fact is, ss devices can be very non-linear but because they are more easily feedback corrected, their circuits typically have less distortion than tube circuits. There are many different tubes, some with extremely linear gain / frequency characteristics. I bet that there are no solid state devices that would approach the uncompenssted linearity of many tubes in the audio range. Talking about tube AMPLIFIERS and solid state AMPLIFIERS. Unless I’m missing something you can’t listen to a tube or a transistor. Russ
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 12, 2021 20:12:22 GMT -5
But, to my knowledge, most of the ‘buggy’ information is anecdotal, and not part of the official review. There are people there who imply conditions are normal’ when they only happen under specific circumstances that are easily avoidable. Unless I’ve missed where ASR or others are now giving a ‘Buggy’ rating? Like anywhere these days there are those with an axe to grind, and as we are discussing measurements in this thread, it seems to be drifting. To add to your reply, several posters in that thread asked Amir directly what AVR they should get and more than once he supplied his graph of all the AVR's and their SINAD measurements and told him to pick from there. Several times. Others chimed in with similar info. NO ONE chimed in and suggested anything to the contrary or alternative methods for selection. Pretty cut and dried. Again, to each their own, if that's how they want to base their decision that's their choice and perfectly ok. There are worse criteria to use for deciding. Others may think differently but no one posted differently.
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 12, 2021 20:21:45 GMT -5
I dig the fact that despite all the marketing which suggests Emotiva is neutral that a defense is made for Emotiva by this community as if they have such distorted colorized sound signature as tubes. Please link to posts where people said Emo's distortion gives it that warm tube sound; I can't wait to read those. Every single tube post concerning distortion here has been used as an argument that MEASUREMENTS should not be the SOLE criteria when considering a piece of audio gear. That's it. Nothing more. It's ALWAYS an example that there is poor measuring gear out there that people think sound wonderful. People here do value measurements but very few use it as their sole criteria for deciding/judging. No one has said Emo gear has tube-like sound; or if they have, I've been asleep at the wheel and greatly look forward to the plethora of links from this community that you will supply. Thanks in advance.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2021 21:14:40 GMT -5
I dig the fact that despite all the marketing which suggests Emotiva is neutral that a defense is made for Emotiva by this community as if they have such distorted colorized sound signature as tubes. Please link to posts where people said Emo's distortion gives it that warm tube sound; I can't wait to read those. Every single tube post concerning distortion here has been used as an argument that MEASUREMENTS should not be the SOLE criteria when considering a piece of audio gear. That's it. Nothing more. It's ALWAYS an example that there is poor measuring gear out there that people think sound wonderful. People here do value measurements but very few use it as their sole criteria for deciding/judging. No one has said Emo gear has tube-like sound; or if they have, I've been asleep at the wheel and greatly look forward to the plethora of links from this community that you will supply. Thanks in advance. You're the idiot I referred making your smart ass remark under the assumption that tubes measure poorly but I enjoy the sound. Don't put words in my mouth. Seems like you have not only a problem comprehending but also a difficult time keeping track of the B.S. you post.
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 12, 2021 21:21:22 GMT -5
Now now, Shimei. Must we be uncivilized?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2021 21:22:23 GMT -5
Now now, Shimei. Must we be uncivilized? "Now now" - I do not believe you're sincere but rather think my response is childish. There's a time and place for civility - but not among your kind which lacks an upright vertebrae. Consider your cowardly indirect pot shots, snake. Blocked.
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Post by Ex_Vintage on Sept 12, 2021 21:43:24 GMT -5
Hopefully end of this thread. This horse has been bludgeoned!
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Sept 12, 2021 22:22:50 GMT -5
Hopefully end of this thread. This horse has been bludgeoned! Agreed.............Everything that has needed to be said, has been said. I'm just amazed that this thread made it another 12 pages before the posts went on the personal and uncivil route. Thread is now closed.
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