Emotiva's next flagship DAC

[garbulky]

Sept 10, 2021 18:41:32 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Apple is impossible to predict - except for the fact that they'll want to maximize profit and control of any content or delivery method they offer. Their latest is a proprietary version of Dolby Atmos that requires Apple hardware for playback. Apple can KMA.

I find the atmos thing quite hilarious because Apple doesn't have any version of true atmos speaker or av systems.

[mgbpuff]

Keep downing MQA without a full understanding of the math behind it. Fully decoded, it is lossless. Partially decoded, it is lossy, but what is lost is undetectable. Tidal MQA sounds so much better than just high res PCM that I look for and play MQA tracks almost exclusively on my fully decoding MQA DACs. I for one will not buy a DAC that does not have MQA. So Emotiva, with your poo pooing of MQA and your insistence of SMPS power supplies in your big amps, you are losing me as a customer going forward.

[Boomzilla]

Hi mgbpuff -

It isn't Emotiva quashing MQA - it is customers, all equipment manufacturers, and the press. To use MQA, the owners of the content must pay Meridian to use the MQA encoding CODEC. That's one expense. Then, to play back MQA, the customer has to buy a MQA playback DAC - and the DAC manufacturer has to pay Meridian to have the MQA decoding hardware in their product. So essentially, Meridian is "double-dipping" by charging licensing fees at both ends. If Meridian had offered the technology with a fee at only one of the two ends, I think their CODEC would have succeeded. But having two fees on the use of the CODEC has soured both consumers and manufacturers on the technology. Note that what I've said is NOT (in any way) a criticism of the function of MQA - only on its marketing. From what I hear, the majority of manufacturers don't offer MQA DACs because their customers have not expressed a desire for them.

As to SMPS power supplies, I think the jury is still out. In theory, volts & amps of DC to the transistors are the same regardless of what technology you used to convert from the wall AC. But in practice, a number of folks claim to be able to hear the difference. I think my Emotiva PA-1 mono blocks use a SMPS power supply, and they sound great. The generation 3 X-series Emotiva amps, however, have not tickled my fancy. YMMV

You, I, and everyone else will ultimately vote with our wallets. If MQA becomes more widespread, the vast majority of manufacturers will include it. If SMPS power supplies fall from favor, the vast majority of manufacturers will eventually eschew them (except for the AVR market, where sonic quality is way down the priority list compared to cost, features, etc.).

Boom

[mgbpuff]

Sept 11, 2021 10:54:09 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Hi mgbpuff -

It isn't Emotiva quashing MQA - it is customers, all equipment manufacturers, and the press. To use MQA, the owners of the content must pay Meridian to use the MQA encoding CODEC. That's one expense. Then, to play back MQA, the customer has to buy a MQA playback DAC - and the DAC manufacturer has to pay Meridian to have the MQA decoding hardware in their product. So essentially, Meridian is "double-dipping" by charging licensing fees at both ends. If Meridian had offered the technology with a fee at only one of the two ends, I think their CODEC would have succeeded. But having two fees on the use of the CODEC has soured both consumers and manufacturers on the technology. Note that what I've said is NOT (in any way) a criticism of the function of MQA - only on its marketing. From what I hear, the majority of manufacturers don't offer MQA DACs because their customers have not expressed a desire for them.

As to SMPS power supplies, I think the jury is still out. In theory, volts & amps of DC to the transistors are the same regardless of what technology you used to convert from the wall AC. But in practice, a number of folks claim to be able to hear the difference. I think my Emotiva PA-1 mono blocks use a SMPS power supply, and they sound great. The generation 3 X-series Emotiva amps, however, have not tickled my fancy. YMMV

You, I, and everyone else will ultimately vote with our wallets. If MQA becomes more widespread, the vast majority of manufacturers will include it. If SMPS power supplies fall from favor, the vast majority of manufacturers will eventually eschew them (except for the AVR market, where sonic quality is way down the priority list compared to cost, features, etc.).

Boom

I'm voting with my wallet now. MQA is too mathematically exotic for the masses or even the technician level to understand. Products determined by the masses tend to be under whelming. Given no choice the masses will buy new technology and ultimately will not go backwards, but given a choice they usually go with the cheapest. If the audiophile market was driven by the masses, there would be no audiophile market at all.

[audiobill]

Boom, please remember it’s more than just dc volts that make a good power supply. Lots of thoughts online about the relative “stiffness” of a power supply and how that affects the sonic merits of amplifiers. Some even prefer a tube based power supply for organic merits.

[Rybo]

I didn't see any downing of MQA in this thread, though I did say I want to avoid opening a can of worms because of the passionate disagreements on both sides of the debate. I personally use Tidal with an MQA licensed DAC and enjoy the sound just fine, but I don't hold it against Emotiva for waiting to see if it becomes mainstream. For me, MQA is certainly high-res and lossless, but for someone else it isn't if high-res is defined strictly as an un(re)touched bit-perfect file in every aspect. My ears can't be the judge for someone else, so I understand and respect why some are against it. (I realize there's more to it than that).

I was mainly just curious why Boomzilla believes MQA isn't going to make it beyond the many negative responses out there. I don't know how firmly the music industry has signed on to MQA as the standard, nor how much leverage they have to pressure streaming companies to use it eventually -- at least for new releases. There's such an abundance of "non MQA" hi-res out there that I can't see that being completely replaced by MQA for existing recordings, at least from a personal ownership perspective.

[Boomzilla]

Hi Rybo -

Reasons I don't think MQA will prevail (in addition to their marketing, which I've already commented on):

1. The majority of consumers don't use streaming services. The bulk of MQA encoded music is accessed via streaming.

2. The majority of consumers will not replace their legacy music libraries by paying again for MQA versions. Their existing CDs & records are satisfactory.

3. The majority of consumers get exposure to new music via YouTube. YouTube doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) offer MQA videos.

4. To hear MQA, one must pay extra for an MQA-enabled DAC. The majority of consumers don't know what a DAC is. If it comes with their AVR, then they'll have it, but otherwise, not - and they're not about to replace their AVR just to get MQA.

And that's my two cents - and, as always, I could be wrong...

Boom

[Rybo]

Sept 11, 2021 20:14:43 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Hi Rybo -

Reasons I don't think MQA will prevail (in addition to their marketing, which I've already commented on):

1. The majority of consumers don't use streaming services. The bulk of MQA encoded music is accessed via streaming.

2. The majority of consumers will not replace their legacy music libraries by paying again for MQA versions. Their existing CDs & records are satisfactory.

3. The majority of consumers get exposure to new music via YouTube. YouTube doesn't (to the best of my knowledge) offer MQA videos.

4. To hear MQA, one must pay extra for an MQA-enabled DAC. The majority of consumers don't know what a DAC is. If it comes with their AVR, then they'll have it, but otherwise, not - and they're not about to replace their AVR just to get MQA.

And that's my two cents - and, as always, I could be wrong...

Boom

Thanks -- that sounds reasonable enough not to include or want it as a DAC feature, unless you specifically want it for something like Tidal streaming.

I do wonder if the music industry has the leverage and the long-term strategy to chip away at it, though. Suppose at some point all new releases are in MQA format only? Then it won't really matter what the consumer wants, they'll be backed into it for anything released from that point. And if a company doesn't want to license or a consumer doesn't want to purchase full-unfold technology, they'll simply have the first unfold and be done. It sounds like they are prepared for some not to license MQA who aren't concerned about "unlocking the hi-res." If they can block the possibility of creating non-MQA high-res going forward, they will have leverage, right? At least for the music they have control over.

[Boomzilla]

Rybo - You keep saying "what if? what if? what if?..." Yes, it is remotely possible that MQA may eventually come to widespread use, but the multiple factors against it make that a "one in a million" eventuality.

But that doesn't affect any of us, as individual audiophiles. If YOU like the sound of MQA, then use it (and buy all the MQA music you can get your hands on while it is still available). Those who have actually heard the "full MQA experience" generally DO consider it superior to unencoded music. I've read of a few who have heard it and not liked it, but the majority who do give it a fair trial seem to consider it an improvement. And therein lies the crux of the matter - is the improvement worth the $$$ to YOU? I think everyone should endeavor to at least hear MQA and make up their own mind. Only then can they fairly evaluate whether or not the difference is worth the cost.

Cordially - Boomzilla

[Rybo]

Sept 12, 2021 3:45:58 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Rybo - You keep saying "what if? what if? what if?..." Yes, it is remotely possible that MQA may eventually come to widespread use, but the multiple factors against it make that a "one in a million" eventuality.

But that doesn't affect any of us, as individual audiophiles. If YOU like the sound of MQA, then use it (and buy all the MQA music you can get your hands on while it is still available). Those who have actually heard the "full MQA experience" generally DO consider it superior to unencoded music. I've read of a few who have heard it and not liked it, but the majority who do give it a fair trial seem to consider it an improvement. And therein lies the crux of the matter - is the improvement worth the $$$ to YOU? I think everyone should endeavor to at least hear MQA and make up their own mind. Only then can they fairly evaluate whether or not the difference is worth the cost.

Cordially - Boomzilla

I ask "what if" because that's plausibly what it seems like is happening to me, albeit perhaps very slowly. So I wanted to see why you thought it would die off over against the impression that I have. Like you said, "I could be wrong." I did purchase my MQA DAC exactly for the reason you mentioned, to see if I liked it / thought it was worth it. I do like it, but I'm basically agnostic when it comes to caring whether it "takes over" to any degree. But if it does, it will be less of an option and more of a necessity for listening to the highest res of future music releases. But yeah, I realize that's not the case at the moment. Just not sure it's going to die out, either. Like you said, guess we'll see.

[audiobill]

This seems to do most of what people want at high value pricing:

www.minidsp.com/products/streaming-hd-series/shd-series

[Gary Cook]

Sept 11, 2021 10:54:09 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Hi mgbpuff -
It isn't Emotiva quashing MQA - it is customers, all equipment manufacturers, and the press. To use MQA, the owners of the content must pay Meridian to use the MQA encoding CODEC. That's one expense. Then, to play back MQA, the customer has to buy a MQA playback DAC - and the DAC manufacturer has to pay Meridian to have the MQA decoding hardware in their product. So essentially, Meridian is "double-dipping" by charging licensing fees at both ends. If Meridian had offered the technology with a fee at only one of the two ends, I think their CODEC would have succeeded. But having two fees on the use of the CODEC has soured both consumers and manufacturers on the technology. Note that what I've said is NOT (in any way) a criticism of the function of MQA - only on its marketing. From what I hear, the majority of manufacturers don't offer MQA DACs because their customers have not expressed a desire for them.

As to SMPS power supplies, I think the jury is still out. In theory, volts & amps of DC to the transistors are the same regardless of what technology you used to convert from the wall AC. But in practice, a number of folks claim to be able to hear the difference. I think my Emotiva PA-1 mono blocks use a SMPS power supply, and they sound great. The generation 3 X-series Emotiva amps, however, have not tickled my fancy. YMMV

You, I, and everyone else will ultimately vote with our wallets. If MQA becomes more widespread, the vast majority of manufacturers will include it. If SMPS power supplies fall from favor, the vast majority of manufacturers will eventually eschew them (except for the AVR market, where sonic quality is way down the priority list compared to cost, features, etc.).

Boom

Sept 10, 2021 15:22:13 GMT -5 brutiarti said:

But they might try to charge more. In Australia they put new pricing plans.
View Attachment

We (those from downunder) are experiencing triple dipping, how long until it becomes worldwide?


Cheers
Gary