atlcal
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
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Post by atlcal on Sept 9, 2021 9:37:48 GMT -5
I've been a long time AVR fan that just recently came across a local deal on 3 XPA-1 Gen 2 amps that was too good to pass up. I've never used separates, I've pretty much stuck with the next to top Denon units for the past few decades, and they have served me well. I feel the amp sections have gotten worse as the years passed, there's definitely a steep dropoff between my old favorite 4806 and my current x4500. While the new units have so many more bells and whistles, and much better built in room correction, for 2 channel listening, it just didn't sound as good as the heavyweight 4806, which lives on as insane overkill for my computer speakers.
I wouldn't be overstating it to say it was a night and day difference running my relatively sensitive Paradigm Studios front stage, either in stereo or in HT modes. Bottom end was much more solid, even though I offload most of the work to the subs (80Hz xover), and the separation and depth of the soundstage was significantly better. Other than having to do some modifications to my speaker wiring to accommodate the unusual terminal spacing on the XPA-1, and chasing up some long interconnects to run to the amps, there weren't any changes to the system. I do have 2 15 amp circuits for this room, and I doubt I'll ever push these amps anywhere near the limits of the power wiring. The surrounds and Atmos speakers remain on the Denon, as it's more than enough to power them for TV and movies.
The only challenge now is where to put these monsters. Currently, I have them on short stands in front of the room near each speaker , but not too happy with the way that looks, or with the real estate they consume. I could possibly move it to the front wall, and bring everything else closer to the main LP, or possibly come up with an open rack to one side. It's definitely overkill for my relatively modest system, but for less than the price of a new XPA-3, I couldn't pass up the deal.
That's my introduction, and look forward to reading more on the forum.
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Post by garbulky on Sept 9, 2021 9:52:15 GMT -5
Hi atlcal imo the XPA-1 gen 2 is the best Emotiva amp theyv'e put out (that I've heard). Another close contender would be the XPR-1. There's not been a single time that I've listened to my XPA-1 gen 2's that I haven't loved the sound. The gen 2's class A mode also provides a subtle improvement to the sound, if you can deal with the heat. They also sound great using balanced connections - which you should use if you have the option. They are a very good pairing with the old Emotiva DC-1. Unfortunately, they are humungous and there's no way around it.  If for some reason you really don't like the size, used Emotiva PA-1's come quite close to the sound of the XPA-1 gen 2 on most speakers that aren't maggies or electrostats. I know it's hard to believe, because they are so light but they really do sound great. Other than those, there is no real upgrade from your gen 2's, so consider your amp journey at an end Well unless you like tubes  |
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atlcal
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
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Post by atlcal on Sept 9, 2021 10:26:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome and the input. I figured getting these would be the equivalent of diving in the deep end, rather than dipping a toe in the shallow end. I don't have anything with balanced preouts, but maybe the next buy will be a nice pre/pro.
I have to put some thought into rearranging things, as I do like the sound with these amps, and can't see myself spending more money for a step down, even if they are a bit of a pain to work around. At least it's 'my' room, and the wife doesn't care what it looks like. And I certainly don't want to deal with trying to sell these things, I think the reason I got them so cheap is that the guy had even less interest in trying to ship them.
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Post by garbulky on Sept 9, 2021 12:49:41 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome and the input. I figured getting these would be the equivalent of diving in the deep end, rather than dipping a toe in the shallow end. I don't have anything with balanced preouts, but maybe the next buy will be a nice pre/pro. I have to put some thought into rearranging things, as I do like the sound with these amps, and can't see myself spending more money for a step down, even if they are a bit of a pain to work around. At least it's 'my' room, and the wife doesn't care what it looks like. And I certainly don't want to deal with trying to sell these things, I think the reason I got them so cheap is that the guy had even less interest in trying to ship them. Very cool. These amps will keep up with you for as long as you will have them. Tons of detail. Beautiful almost holographic sound for music and it will knock you around during movies. I hope you figured out the class A/ AB switch. A puts it in to class A mode but things get very hot when you do. Doing so gives you 60 watts of high bias class A before it switches over to regular AB operation. It's one of the few amps out there that do that, and certainly none that can do it are anywhere near this price range AB mode puts it in to regular "cool-ish" mode. Both sound great. |
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Post by leonski on Sept 16, 2021 0:10:17 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the A / AB transition is gradual, not a brick wall.
The heat is real. 'A' Amps are HEAVY. A lot of PS, since you have a constant draw AND enough heat-sink to keep it
from cooking. A large Toroid of a size this amp would have might go OVER 20 lb......
Best advice for the budding owner of the XPA1 / 2 is to give 'em plenty of space. Do NOT set them on carpet. Have some thing like a Boos Block under them so AIR can circulate then
get drawn up and OUT.....Do NOT STACK THEM, either.
Don't get me started on the inadequacy of 2x15amp circuits for these amps with the REST of a full-system....
Someone around here told the the relationship between equipment LIFESPAN and TEMP but I don't remember exactly EXCEPT that Cooler is Better.......Let 'em breath....
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Post by rbk123 on Sept 16, 2021 10:30:56 GMT -5
Keep in mind that the A / AB transition is gradual, not a brick wall. Especially since 90% (more?) of listening is at power levels well under the transition threshold. |
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atlcal
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
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Post by atlcal on Sept 16, 2021 11:43:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the insight and warnings. I have spent 15 hours or so, listening to the amps in A vs AB, and am satisfied with the sound I am getting from AB mode. Maybe my old ears or too many years of abuse, there wasn't a marked sonic difference to justify the heat and power disadvantages.
I am well aware of the power requirements, and I know the circuits I have are inadequate for the max output of these amps. Once I settle on a location in the room, I plan on upgrading wiring and running new outlets to supply these amps. leaving the existing circuits for the TV/subs/receiver.
For now, they are living on the floor, on platforms that elevate them about 3" off the carpet. As an experiment, I built an shelf a few inches larger than the amp in both directions, that gives about 3" airspace above the amp, and is open on all 4 sides. Ran music for several hours at fairly loud levels for my space (14'x22'), and used an IR thermometer to measure the temps inside the amp through the cover. I was only seeing a 1.5F degree difference between L and R channel amps. That led me to try putting the L amp over the R amp, and the difference remained the same after a couple more hours of listening. I plan on leaving them like this for another week or two, and will check the temps at the end of listening sessions and movie watching, and I still have the center channel amp all on it's own several feet away for comparison. I would attribute the cool running to the high sensitivity speakers, room size, and my listening level preference. A more demanding speaker in a larger room at higher volumes, I'm sure things would warm up, but they're really just loafing most of the time in my room.
Again, I am listening to your input, and do appreciate the time it takes to reply. It's been fun getting to know these amps and listening to some of my favorite music, which is what it's all about.
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Post by leonski on Sept 16, 2021 15:04:24 GMT -5
atlcal.......I am VERY pleased to see you experiment AND take some data. Now you'll have something to 'fall back on' should anything go amiss in the future. Memories are fallabile.
And yes, Amp simply loafs most of the time. Even drawing <10 watts per speaker.....which IS fairly loud....with 10 to 20 db crest factor peaks. Under those conditions you STILL haven't tapped out the amp.
Make sure ALL your outlets / new breakers are from ONE side of the box.....And unless you're qualified, get a good guy in there and install a whole house surge protection device at the SAME time......
Surge protector is ESPECiALLY important if you live in a place tat gets LOTS of thunder / lightning storms or even the odd Tornado.
I was house sitting in out in Palm Springs during the summer months....many years ago. HUGE storm blew thru and we had 3 lightning strikes within Butt Pucker distance. Flash / Bang was simultanious......
EVERYBODY Out Of The Pool!
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Post by garbulky on Sept 16, 2021 15:42:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the insight and warnings. I have spent 15 hours or so, listening to the amps in A vs AB, and am satisfied with the sound I am getting from AB mode. Maybe my old ears or too many years of abuse, there wasn't a marked sonic difference to justify the heat and power disadvantages. I am well aware of the power requirements, and I know the circuits I have are inadequate for the max output of these amps. Once I settle on a location in the room, I plan on upgrading wiring and running new outlets to supply these amps. leaving the existing circuits for the TV/subs/receiver. For now, they are living on the floor, on platforms that elevate them about 3" off the carpet. As an experiment, I built an shelf a few inches larger than the amp in both directions, that gives about 3" airspace above the amp, and is open on all 4 sides. Ran music for several hours at fairly loud levels for my space (14'x22'), and used an IR thermometer to measure the temps inside the amp through the cover. I was only seeing a 1.5F degree difference between L and R channel amps. That led me to try putting the L amp over the R amp, and the difference remained the same after a couple more hours of listening. I plan on leaving them like this for another week or two, and will check the temps at the end of listening sessions and movie watching, and I still have the center channel amp all on it's own several feet away for comparison. I would attribute the cool running to the high sensitivity speakers, room size, and my listening level preference. A more demanding speaker in a larger room at higher volumes, I'm sure things would warm up, but they're really just loafing most of the time in my room. Again, I am listening to your input, and do appreciate the time it takes to reply. It's been fun getting to know these amps and listening to some of my favorite music, which is what it's all about. If you are listening in ab mode, I wouldn't worry too much about the power requirements. I have them connected on two shared 15A outlets with other devices. I have no problem with the amount of power I get from them. I only tripped it once in class A mode and I had a everything going at the same time and very loudly. |
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atlcal
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
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Post by atlcal on Sept 16, 2021 20:54:39 GMT -5
That's good to hear about your experience with the XPA-1 on the 15A circuits. I will still probably run the new circuit, if for no other reason than to give me a power point closer to where I envision the amps going. I appreciate the advice on the whole house surge suppression, but I already have that part handled. Growing up in SE FL, I am well acquainted with frequent lightning strikes, and though I'm now in GA, I've always installed surge suppression at every home I lived in. Growing up around pools, water, and year round thunderstorms, I still find myself silently counting between the flash and the sound, and doing the math on how fast I need to get my butt inside.
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Post by leonski on Sept 17, 2021 1:03:11 GMT -5
That's good to hear about your experience with the XPA-1 on the 15A circuits. I will still probably run the new circuit, if for no other reason than to give me a power point closer to where I envision the amps going. I appreciate the advice on the whole house surge suppression, but I already have that part handled. Growing up in SE FL, I am well acquainted with frequent lightning strikes, and though I'm now in GA, I've always installed surge suppression at every home I lived in. Growing up around pools, water, and year round thunderstorms, I still find myself silently counting between the flash and the sound, and doing the math on how fast I need to get my butt inside. I'm sorry. I can't help it. Fairly sensitive speakers? High powered ampS on a single 15amp circuit? maximum power maybe 1/2 of spec? I'd say get FEWER watts and maybe 'better'. Skip the Hernia moving 'em around! Florida Flicker and Flash was my favorite power company of ALL time. Especially standing on a TERRAZZO floor which is a Deadly Combo. |
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atlcal
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
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Post by atlcal on Sept 17, 2021 8:23:35 GMT -5
I get it, these amps are not the best option for my current set up, but if/when I decide to go a different route with speakers, I won't be worried if the amp has enough oomph to power them properly. And running a new circuit for the amps was already in the works once I decided to go down the separates path, it's just a matter of deciding where they will live before I pay someone to install an outlet and run the cable.
I'm not sure what 3 amps, or 3 channel amp, I could find for barely over $1k that would give me better sound/performance. I think it was a great deal for quality amps, and it was a very inexpensive way to get into something above 'entry level' amps for the front stage. Honestly, moving them around is not really a chore now that they're in the room, it's not like this is going to be a constant thing; once I've decided where to put them, there they go and will stay for the foreseeable future.
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Post by garbulky on Sept 17, 2021 11:21:20 GMT -5
I get it, these amps are not the best option for my current set up, but if/when I decide to go a different route with speakers, I won't be worried if the amp has enough oomph to power them properly. And running a new circuit for the amps was already in the works once I decided to go down the separates path, it's just a matter of deciding where they will live before I pay someone to install an outlet and run the cable. I'm not sure what 3 amps, or 3 channel amp, I could find for barely over $1k that would give me better sound/performance. I think it was a great deal for quality amps, and it was a very inexpensive way to get into something above 'entry level' amps for the front stage. Honestly, moving them around is not really a chore now that they're in the room, it's not like this is going to be a constant thing; once I've decided where to put them, there they go and will stay for the foreseeable future. They ARE the best option for ya. These are one of the best amps out there imo. You got this. |
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Post by leonski on Sept 17, 2021 21:01:24 GMT -5
I get it, these amps are not the best option for my current set up, but if/when I decide to go a different route with speakers, I won't be worried if the amp has enough oomph to power them properly. And running a new circuit for the amps was already in the works once I decided to go down the separates path, it's just a matter of deciding where they will live before I pay someone to install an outlet and run the cable. I'm not sure what 3 amps, or 3 channel amp, I could find for barely over $1k that would give me better sound/performance. I think it was a great deal for quality amps, and it was a very inexpensive way to get into something above 'entry level' amps for the front stage. Honestly, moving them around is not really a chore now that they're in the room, it's not like this is going to be a constant thing; once I've decided where to put them, there they go and will stay for the foreseeable future. They ARE the best option for ya. These are one of the best amps out there imo. You got this. Really? Decent value, perhaps, but the BEST? If EMO won't support, just so much gas. Pass Labs and Mc (admit to vastly more $$$) will still support decades old product. You might even be able to get a Threshold Statis amp fixed......New Bryston? (not for every taste!) might still offer the 20 year warranty to original purchaser. Transferable? I don't know. I'm always reluctant to simply 'say it is best' or whatever. But I do look at the system. An entire system of 2 amps, and ALL the rest including a TV on a single 15 amp circuit? Sure. Or giant amps with 100db speakers. Some kinds of obvious mismatch are a direction I'd Not Go, even were I wealthy and not just good looking. Ignoring the support thing for now? XPA-1? Maybe for my Panels? Above 'entry level'....whatever THAT is.....might be where you find 'MidFi'. Some starters might be NAD or ADCOM or maybe even Parasound? I found a home in the middle..... THan you can spend any amount you want going UP to somewhere between Obscene and Profane....... |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 18, 2021 2:25:19 GMT -5
They ARE the best option for ya. These are one of the best amps out there imo. You got this. Really? Decent value, perhaps, but the BEST? If EMO won't support, just so much gas. Pass Labs and Mc (admit to vastly more $$$) will still support decades old product. You might even be able to get a Threshold Statis amp fixed......New Bryston? (not for every taste!) might still offer the 20 year warranty to original purchaser. Transferable? I don't know. I'm always reluctant to simply 'say it is best' or whatever. But I do look at the system. An entire system of 2 amps, and ALL the rest including a TV on a single 15 amp circuit? Sure. Or giant amps with 100db speakers. Some kinds of obvious mismatch are a direction I'd Not Go, even were I wealthy and not just good looking. Ignoring the support thing for now? XPA-1? Maybe for my Panels? Above 'entry level'....whatever THAT is.....might be where you find 'MidFi'. Some starters might be NAD or ADCOM or maybe even Parasound? I found a home in the middle..... THan you can spend any amount you want going UP to somewhere between Obscene and Profane....... I had several qualifiers in my best statement. The most important being in my opinion - which comes from both being the best amp I've heard. I haven't heard Bryston and Krell though I have heard TOTL Mac solid state gear. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 18, 2021 6:19:16 GMT -5
I'm sorry. I can't help it. Fairly sensitive speakers? High powered ampS on a single 15amp circuit? maximum power maybe 1/2 of spec? I'd say get FEWER watts and maybe 'better'. Skip the Hernia moving 'em around! Florida Flicker and Flash was my favorite power company of ALL time. Especially standing on a TERRAZZO floor which is a Deadly Combo. is normally a font of good information, but on this one I've got to disagree. Yes, having a pair of 20 amp circuits dedicated to the XPA-1s would definitely maximize their potential. But since the OP listens in Class AB mode, and since normal listening is at less than one watt of output, I'd bet cash that one couldn't hear ANY difference between both amps on a single 15A circuit and having those dedicated breakers. And above all, don't let ANYONE talk you into smaller, lighter amps. The XPA-1 amps are gems, and no longer available. KEEP THOSE PUPPIES! So what if you don't need their maximum capabilities? They sound just as good at low volumes. Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by leonski on Sept 18, 2021 13:40:18 GMT -5
No Problemo, Boom. I'll take the hit. But stand by my origianl contention of 'buy what you need, mot what you want'.....And while it IS sometimes a good idea to
'buy ahead' of need, in this case what POSSIBLE need could there be? To tap into the potential of the XPA-1 amps, you'll need speakers of epic low sensitivity OR
such insane power handling (or both?) as to get you evicted from your STATE.
So? Why bother than? Get something of maybe 100 a side, be able to move it AND not even think about 20 amp circuit(S)...
I'd say to keep the XPAs, too, though. NOW that you have 'em. But the catch? IF they break, EMO no longer will support, apparently while
you'll need an act of Congress to score a SCHEMATIC so a good tech can have a go at a fix.
If I ran a museum or were a collector? SURE, I'd have 'em. But as a daily driver?
And for Gar? Mc is not my cup of Hemlock, either. My couple encounters with Bryston? Kind of 'dry', maybe? Krell? Depends which one. The EArly stuff is classic.....KSA series, I think......
I just looked at a COMPARISON of the Mc 275 against the Latino ST-120 at a fraction the price. Mc is a tube design as is the ST-120. Track that one down yourself, if curious. You might be surprised
at how well the Latino amp is regarded when compared to something (even used) which is 4x more $$$.....At a claimed 60 a side? I'd target a more sensitive speaker than my awful Panels.
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atlcal
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 8
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Post by atlcal on Sept 18, 2021 22:48:33 GMT -5
Sorry all, I didn't mean to stir up trouble with my first thread. I was just excited to join the club, as it were, and share the news of my new acquisition.
My faithful Paradigm Studios are rated something like 92 dB sensitivity, and it's not a huge room, so yeah, I'll probably not stress these amps much, as I've stated before. Even so, it seems logical to provide another circuit for these since the TV and receiver are on one circuit, and the subs on another. Probably overkill, but who knows what I'll find locally someday, Atlanta has plenty of nice equipment that pops up for sale from time to time, and there's plenty of folks not willing to deal with the hassle of shipping large speakers and price their stuff accordingly. That's precisely how I got these amps, and I'm still very satisfied with my purchase. I am not a serial upgrader, nor someone who can afford to drop thousands a year on whatever is new and shiny. I upgrade when there's a need (something dies), new technology (BR, 4K, etc), or in this case, the desire to dip my toe into something different, like a separate amp instead of the receivers that I've used for 30+ years.
I'm aware that the XPA-1 may not be easily serviceable if something happens, I knew that the moment I picked one up. Even if Emotiva were servicing them, the shipping to/from and the repair bill for whatever ails them would likely exceed their value when all is said and done. That said, I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope that it is built at least as solidly as a few of my old Denons, my old AVR-4800 is still chugging along 20+ years later, and has no problem driving my garage setup in less than stellar conditions, and it's 6 year younger brother continues to power my computer's 5.1 setup.
Thanks for the welcome and the input, and sorry for the trouble.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 18, 2021 23:55:39 GMT -5
Hi atlcal - There's no trouble at all. I think highly of leonski and we both agree that you should keep your excellent XPA-1 amplifiers. Leonski just contends that if you were shopping for amps (instead of having already bought them) you might look at other options. I can agree with him on that. I doubt that you'll find much of any current electronics product that will last 20+ years unless you just get lucky. The products built with that level of robustness are extremely expensive these days. Cheers - Boom |
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Post by leonski on Sept 19, 2021 1:09:51 GMT -5
Hi atlcal - There's no trouble at all. I think highly of leonski and we both agree that you should keep your excellent XPA-1 amplifiers. Leonski just contends that if you were shopping for amps (instead of having already bought them) you might look at other options. I can agree with him on that. I doubt that you'll find much of any current electronics product that will last 20+ years unless you just get lucky. The products built with that level of robustness are extremely expensive these days. Cheers - Boom A fair characterization. I too, have an old bit of kit. My KENWOOD KA-7100 which is very Pre-Surround Sound. Even all the Matrix stuff. Late 70s, IIRC? When you buy something NEW, do NOT foreget that you are essentially pre-paying for warranty work. For a cost, for example, EMO could issue a 10 year warranty....to only the original purchaser. Cost of gear would probably double. And costs to 'the company' would increase a lot, too. Stocking parts and such for a decade is not a trivial expense and ties up a bunch of resources. Both time and people. After all? The company I worked at? We had s stock room for equipment parts. Somebody on duty 24-7 with rare exception. Chemical handlers. Support personal. A Reliability lab. Incoming 'stuff' people and people who just SHIPPED stuff. All supported a single goal of manufacturing whatever it was we did...... |
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