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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 20, 2021 14:08:36 GMT -5
Indeed....  I've always liked the way the Nautilus speakers sound... but a speaker just shouldn't look like a left-over prop from Barbarella... Maybe if a young Jane Fonda came with it? |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 20, 2021 14:10:14 GMT -5
Absolutely !  Indeed.... I've always liked the way the Nautilus speakers sound... but a speaker just shouldn't look like a left-over prop from Barbarella... Maybe if a young Jane Fonda came with it? |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 21, 2021 6:11:42 GMT -5
After further listening to my B&W 704 speakers, I must say that these are the pickiest speakers about amplifier matching of any that I've ever heard. So far, I've tried the 704 speakers with my Crown PSA-2 stereo amp, with my Black Ice F22 tube stereo amp, and with my Emotiva PA-1 (Class-D) mono block amps. And darned if the 704s almost sound like completely different speakers with each of the three. Using the Crown amplifier, the 704s sound incredibly detailed with an amazing treble. Most loudspeakers have a lot of trouble with cymbals, in particular. In some cases, the cymbals will sound too "tizzy" with the shimmer of the cymbal, but insufficient "brass." In other cases, the cymbals will be too prominent or insufficiently prominent in relation to the rest of the music. But with the Crown amp, the 704s produce the most realistic cymbals I've ever heard from a speaker. Klipsch Heritage speakers, by comparison get the brass right but can sometimes lack the "tizz" that goes along with it. The 704 speakers, however have the brass, the tizz, and the correct balance and dynamics to make cymbals sound in the room with you. Unfortunately, the treble home run doesn't extend down into the midrange. Midrange material, and in particular, vocals, sound slightly recessed in the soundstage. The voices are there, but they sound as if they're slightly farther away from you than the rest of the music. Using the Black Ice F22 amplifier (that uses EL34 output tubes and generates a maximum of about 45-50 watts), the midrange is slightly more forward, but now the treble is too soft. This is not the case with other speakers that I've tried with the F22 amplifier, and in fact my Klipsch RP-600M speakers are a stunning match with this amplifier. But for whatever reason, the 704 speakers and this amp just don't much like each other. Dogs and cats come to mind... Using the Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers with the 704 speakers is the best match of these three amplifier options, but still isn't perfect. On the good side, these amps make the 704s provide the best midrange of any other match. Voices are in the room with you, but without being harsh, edgy, or shrill at any time. In fact, voices are so realistic that my better half walked in from the other room to hear singer "Storm Large" singing "The Lady is a Tramp." The center imaging is good with realistic depth in the center. But for whatever reason, the 704 speakers absolutely will not cast a wide image with these amps. The plane of instruments and voices between the speakers is clear and up front with good depth, but even Q-sound processed material (such as Madonna's "Immaculate Collection" CD) can't produce a wide soundstage. Curious. The PA-1 amps also produce the most dynamic music I've heard from the 704 speakers, but sometimes the dynamics are excessive - so much so that they actually distract from the music! I've never heard this before. But in spite of their dynamics, the PA-1 and 704 combination either can't or won't do treble! The entire treble range sounds "too smooth." Now this makes the system easy to listen to, but it's like someone took sandpaper to the recording and just smoothed off the highs. This is particularly surprising because the PA-1 amplifiers have great treble with every other speaker I've tried them with and because the 704 speakers are often criticized for having too bright a treble. Really strange! And with any of these amplifiers, the B&W 704 speakers absolutely, positively will NOT sound dynamic at low volumes. There is a loudness threshold that the speakers must exceed before they sound their best. I've encountered this same thing before with several models of Magnepan speakers. Get the 704s up to that threshold, and their performance soars. Play them below that threshold and you might as well be listening to a transistor radio. The loudness threshold is louder than I normally care to listen, so I'm not sure that these speakers will last too long with me. But the improvement is so startling that you want to just keep turning up the B&W speakers more and more - each increase in volume makes them sound better and better. And their best really is good. So it's a tossup between the Crown and the Emotiva as to which amp is best with the 704 speakers. Whichever I choose, I think that I'll have to use some DSP to fix the issues. And unfortunately, I don't think that the volume threshold is amenable to DSP fixes. So that's where I am with the B&W 704 speakers. Boomzilla Ancillary equipment: Mac mini running Roon software External library on RAID Emotiva Big Ego+ DAC Emotiva PA1 preamplifier |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 21, 2021 10:53:10 GMT -5
Interesting... I only have one comment... and it's about "a wide sound stage". My comment is that, while you may personally prefer it, there is nothing specifically "good" about "a wide sound stage"... as in "better gear produces a wider sound stage". In fact, since it depends on both the original performance, and the recording itself, there isn't really even any way to say that a given set of gear produces "an accurate sound stage" either. (Even if the original recording was made in a huge concert hall, depending on how that recording was recorded and mixed, the recording may not convey that accurately.) And, in the opposite situation, some equipment does seem to deliver an artificially "expanded" sound stage. I've mentioned a pair of Spica Angelus speakers that I owned quite a few years ago... In spite of their many other limitations those always produced a massively wide sound stage, extending far past the speakers on the sides, and with incredible depth, both behind and in front of the speakers, as well... And they did so even with poor recordings... and with recordings where the original venue obviously wasn't large at all... which means that it was more of "a special effect" than "accurate sound reproduction.
(What is interesting is that, in that case, the design of the speakers clearly accounted for it... it is very interesting to find differences in this outcome with the same set of speakers and different amplifiers.)
I also might suggest that some of your experiences with "perceived dynamics" may have more to do with human hearing than you might think... It is pretty widely accepted that we humans tend to perceive music that is louder as having greater dynamic range. Therefore, to a degree, it is NORMAL for music to sound somewhat less dynamic when it is played at levels below "the original level of the performance". And, especially with classical music, the original level of many live performances is VERY loud. Therefore, to put it bluntly, such music probably should sound less dynamic when played too quietly... at least if reproduced accurately. And your "volume threshold effect" may merely be a matter of "excessive accuracy"... It actually might be interesting to try to "fix" it by programming a DSP to introduce both a "loudness curve" and perhaps adding specific metered amounts of distortion. After further listening to my B&W 704 speakers, I must say that these are the pickiest speakers about amplifier matching of any that I've ever heard. So far, I've tried the 704 speakers with my Crown PSA-2 stereo amp, with my Black Ice F22 tube stereo amp, and with my Emotiva PA-1 (Class-D) mono block amps. And darned if the 704s almost sound like completely different speakers with each of the three. Using the Crown amplifier, the 704s sound incredibly detailed with an amazing treble. Most loudspeakers have a lot of trouble with cymbals, in particular. In some cases, the cymbals will sound too "tizzy" with the shimmer of the cymbal, but insufficient "brass." In other cases, the cymbals will be too prominent or insufficiently prominent in relation to the rest of the music. But with the Crown amp, the 704s produce the most realistic cymbals I've ever heard from a speaker. Klipsch Heritage speakers, by comparison get the brass right but can sometimes lack the "tizz" that goes along with it. The 704 speakers, however have the brass, the tizz, and the correct balance and dynamics to make cymbals sound in the room with you. Unfortunately, the treble home run doesn't extend down into the midrange. Midrange material, and in particular, vocals, sound slightly recessed in the soundstage. The voices are there, but they sound as if they're slightly farther away from you than the rest of the music. Using the Black Ice F22 amplifier (that uses EL34 output tubes and generates a maximum of about 45-50 watts), the midrange is slightly more forward, but now the treble is too soft. This is not the case with other speakers that I've tried with the F22 amplifier, and in fact my Klipsch RP-600M speakers are a stunning match with this amplifier. But for whatever reason, the 704 speakers and this amp just don't much like each other. Dogs and cats come to mind... Using the Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers with the 704 speakers is the best match of these three amplifier options, but still isn't perfect. On the good side, these amps make the 704s provide the best midrange of any other match. Voices are in the room with you, but without being harsh, edgy, or shrill at any time. In fact, voices are so realistic that my better half walked in from the other room to hear singer "Storm Large" singing "The Lady is a Tramp." The center imaging is good with realistic depth in the center. But for whatever reason, the 704 speakers absolutely will not cast a wide image with these amps. The plane of instruments and voices between the speakers is clear and up front with good depth, but even Q-sound processed material (such as Madonna's "Immaculate Collection" CD) can't produce a wide soundstage. Curious. The PA-1 amps also produce the most dynamic music I've heard from the 704 speakers, but sometimes the dynamics are excessive - so much so that they actually distract from the music! I've never heard this before. But in spite of their dynamics, the PA-1 and 704 combination either can't or won't do treble! The entire treble range sounds "too smooth." Now this makes the system easy to listen to, but it's like someone took sandpaper to the recording and just smoothed off the highs. This is particularly surprising because the PA-1 amplifiers have great treble with every other speaker I've tried them with and because the 704 speakers are often criticized for having too bright a treble. Really strange! And with any of these amplifiers, the B&W 704 speakers absolutely, positively will NOT sound dynamic at low volumes. There is a loudness threshold that the speakers must exceed before they sound their best. I've encountered this same thing before with several models of Magnepan speakers. Get the 704s up to that threshold, and their performance soars. Play them below that threshold and you might as well be listening to a transistor radio. The loudness threshold is louder than I normally care to listen, so I'm not sure that these speakers will last too long with me. But the improvement is so startling that you want to just keep turning up the B&W speakers more and more - each increase in volume makes them sound better and better. And their best really is good. So it's a tossup between the Crown and the Emotiva as to which amp is best with the 704 speakers. Whichever I choose, I think that I'll have to use some DSP to fix the issues. And unfortunately, I don't think that the volume threshold is amenable to DSP fixes. So that's where I am with the B&W 704 speakers. Boomzilla Ancillary equipment: Mac mini running Roon software External library on RAID Emotiva Big Ego+ DAC Emotiva PA1 preamplifier |
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Post by martindktm on Sept 21, 2021 16:48:47 GMT -5
I hope they sound good. I just can't stand the look of B&W tower they make me sick and wanna throw over. I just don't like their separate bubble tweeter or speaker that seems to be added on over the tower... It's just like some of the Gm cars with square wheel opening... not for me. Would need to hide them so I can't see.
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Post by DavidR on Sept 21, 2021 18:13:55 GMT -5
I hope they sound good. I just can't stand the look of B&W tower they make me sick and wanna throw over. I just don't like their separate bubble tweeter or speaker that seems to be added on over the tower... It's just like some of the Gm cars with square wheel opening... not for me. Would need to hide them so I can't see. One of the best tweeters I've ever heard. So clear and detailed. |
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Post by martindktm on Sept 21, 2021 19:42:12 GMT -5
I hope they sound good. I just can't stand the look of B&W tower they make me sick and wanna throw over. I just don't like their separate bubble tweeter or speaker that seems to be added on over the tower... It's just like some of the Gm cars with square wheel opening... not for me. Would need to hide them so I can't see. One of the best tweeters I've ever heard. So clear and detailed. I did listen to a pair of B&W a few years ago but they did not have that feature. Never heard the one that have it. The one listened where connected to some Rotel stuff. I don't remember the exact model they where but after listening some other brand/combo I went with a set of Focal with Musical Fidelity gear. To my ears the Focal sounded better from what was offered to me for the money I had to spend.
But I can understand some benefit of that B&W design. I just don't like the look of it. Next time I go in town Ill try to have o have a listening session on them.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 22, 2021 9:49:08 GMT -5
Interesting... I only have one comment... and it's about "a wide sound stage". My comment is that, while you may personally prefer it, there is nothing specifically "good" about "a wide sound stage"... as in "better gear produces a wider sound stage". In fact, since it depends on both the original performance, and the recording itself, there isn't really even any way to say that a given set of gear produces "an accurate sound stage" either. (Even if the original recording was made in a huge concert hall, depending on how that recording was recorded and mixed, the recording may not convey that accurately.) And, in the opposite situation, some equipment does seem to deliver an artificially "expanded" sound stage. I've mentioned a pair of Spica Angelus speakers that I owned quite a few years ago... In spite of their many other limitations those always produced a massively wide sound stage, extending far past the speakers on the sides, and with incredible depth, both behind and in front of the speakers, as well... And they did so even with poor recordings... and with recordings where the original venue obviously wasn't large at all... which means that it was more of "a special effect" than "accurate sound reproduction.
(What is interesting is that, in that case, the design of the speakers clearly accounted for it... it is very interesting to find differences in this outcome with the same set of speakers and different amplifiers.)
With "normal" recordings, I might agree with you. But Q-sound is engineered at the recording end to encode out-of-phase information that is specifically designed to provide "outside the plane of the speakers" imaging. With every other speaker I've listened to (and that's a LOT), Q-sound works as designed. Some speakers throw a wider soundstage than others, but they all provide left and right sounds from far beyond the plane of the speakers. For whatever reason, the B&W 704 speakers are loathe to do so. Yes, Q-sound on the B&Ws provides sounds that come from very slightly outside the plane of the speakers, but only very slightly (significantly less than any other speaker). Why? I have no idea. But I am certain that my observations are correct on this issue. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 22, 2021 9:50:46 GMT -5
I hope they sound good. I just can't stand the look of B&W tower they make me sick and wanna throw over. I just don't like their separate bubble tweeter or speaker that seems to be added on over the tower... It's just like some of the Gm cars with square wheel opening... not for me. Would need to hide them so I can't see. So listen in the dark. Problem solved. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 22, 2021 10:47:53 GMT -5
I hope they sound good. I just can't stand the look of B&W tower they make me sick and wanna throw over. I just don't like their separate bubble tweeter or speaker that seems to be added on over the tower... It's just like some of the Gm cars with square wheel opening... not for me. Would need to hide them so I can't see. I got very close to attempting my HT/2C consolidation when I found a pair of 802D & HTM1D used in natural cherry. These models are the same vintage as the other 800 series in my system now. For me I’d miss the Maggies, but think I’d still enjoy the 802s enough that I’d get over it. However my wife loves the Magnepans, specifically how they look; at the same time she is … less than enthusiastic, about the 802D’s appearance and likens them to R2D2 (who doesn’t like R2D2 … right?) So, I may have an uphill battle with someone who generally gives me Carte Blanche with my system and it’s impact on the room. Though it’s not the outboard tweeter per se, as we already have them on the 805S, HTM3S, & HTM4S, rather I think it’s the midrange driver, and maybe the big ‘shoulders’. 🤷♂️ 805S  802D  |
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Post by tropicallutefisk on Sept 22, 2021 11:06:07 GMT -5
My wife thought the tweeter on top of B&W speaker was a karaoke microphone. LOL
She too prefers the look of Maggies. However, she thinks they should be pushed up against the wall and can't understand why they aren't.
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klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,093
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Post by klinemj on Sept 22, 2021 14:18:42 GMT -5
I have a couple friends in Germany who each have 800 series Diamond B&W. One of theirs sounded awesome, and the others sounded awful. Differences were room and amps/preamps. I talked it with a 3rd friend in Germany, and he had an audio magazine that showed impedance as f(frequency) and there was a HUGE change at 3-5 kHz that would indicate they were very hard to drive in that range. His amps were integrated with his preamp and not up to the task. The other guy had beefy external amps that could clearly handle the loads.
Long story short? Understand what speakers need and give it to them.
Mark
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 22, 2021 19:37:27 GMT -5
I test drove a pair of 801’s way back when with my pair of 1.0ts (bridged) before taking them home. With great ease and the guys in the showroom were equally blown away. I’ve been “”stuck” with overkill power ever since!
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 23, 2021 6:04:51 GMT -5
Yeah - I've heard the "more power is better power" theory before and I call BS. In some (very few) cases, the theory works, but in many cases, it's just plain wrong. My Emotiva T2 speakers were a case in point. On the advice of a well-meaning, knowledgable, and highly audio-astute friend, the renowned Mr. garbulky, I kept trying more and more powerful amplifiers but without achieving what I thought the speakers should be capable of. And then, I hooked up some modified yard-sale Heathkit tube amps with 12 watts per channel. MIRABLE DICTU! The frequency response was slightly ragged, but the detail, dynamics, and dimensionality were divine. I've since tried those Heathkits with many other speakers, and they generally amaze. Now Magnepan, Alta Audio, and my current B&W speakers are somehow immune to the charms of the Heathkits, but in general, the Heathkits are true giant slayers. So I categorically reject the claim that having unlimited power automagically produces better sound. The claim may well be true with a small minority of speakers that are so hard to drive that lower-powered amplifiers just can't control them, but in general, I'm definitely a skeptic. And even with more power, one can't ignore the quality of that power. Throw in a garbage-sounding Crown XLS Pro amplifier, for example, and you have power to spare. But the overall effect still seriously lacks. Massive power while retaining good sound is more elusive, and (usually) far more expensive to achieve. Boom |
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 23, 2021 10:00:19 GMT -5
Yeah - I've heard the "more power is better power" theory before and I call BS. In some (very few) cases, the theory works, but in many cases, it's just plain wrong. My Emotiva T2 speakers were a case in point. On the advice of a well-meaning, knowledgable, and highly audio-astute friend, the renowned Mr. garbulky, I kept trying more and more powerful amplifiers but without achieving what I thought the speakers should be capable of. And then, I hooked up some modified yard-sale Heathkit tube amps with 12 watts per channel. MIRABLE DICTU! The frequency response was slightly ragged, but the detail, dynamics, and dimensionality were divine. I've since tried those Heathkits with many other speakers, and they generally amaze. Now Magnepan, Alta Audio, and my current B&W speakers are somehow immune to the charms of the Heathkits, but in general, the Heathkits are true giant slayers. So I categorically reject the claim that having unlimited power automagically produces better sound. The claim may well be true with a small minority of speakers that are so hard to drive that lower-powered amplifiers just can't control them, but in general, I'm definitely a skeptic. And even with more power, one can't ignore the quality of that power. Throw in a garbage-sounding Crown XLS Pro amplifier, for example, and you have power to spare. But the overall effect still seriously lacks. Massive power while retaining good sound is more elusive, and (usually) far more expensive to achieve. Boom You should re-read Marks last post (last line)…. simply makes the right point perfectly |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 23, 2021 10:42:03 GMT -5
I've no issues with Mr. Mark at all. But the point I'm wanting to make is that "figuring out what the speakers want" is not a simple task.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2021 10:59:15 GMT -5
I've no issues with Mr. Mark at all. But the point I'm wanting to make is that "figuring out what the speakers want" is not a simple task. At least for me it doesn't appear all that convenient nor simplistic but for someone like a reviewer I think this be a well worthwhile test to perform. I mean, once setup/configured to run these test it might provide an additional layer of information from that point forward: www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/impedancemeasurement.html |
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Post by tchaik on Sept 23, 2021 11:29:53 GMT -5
I've no issues with Mr. Mark at all. But the point I'm wanting to make is that "figuring out what the speakers want" is not a simple task. speakers want what we all want. a warm bed, a roof over our head, a full belly and world peace. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 23, 2021 12:49:38 GMT -5
speakers want what we all want. a warm bed, a roof over our head, a full belly and world peace. And a friendly companion... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 23, 2021 14:15:54 GMT -5
Live and learn... I pulled my B&W 704s about another foot from the wall behind them and moved them apart by an additional 3 feet and the following happened:
1. The center image got better and voices are now in the plane of the speakers
2. Images beyond the plane of the speakers are now vivid
3. The need for DSP correction went away - the speakers now sound correct without further equalization
These speakers are the ONLY ones that have ever "worked" in anything like the positions that these are currently in. But whatever gets the job done...
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