On speaker cables...

[Boomzilla]

Dave @ GR Research claims that braided cables are superior (to non-braided ones) because they are less prone to act as RF antennas. But it occurs to me that:

1. The speakers can't reproduce radio frequencies, so it shouldn't matter to the speakers and

2. The amplifier won't care because any RF collected by the speaker wires will be shorted directly to ground.

So is there any scientific reason why braided speaker wires would be inherently superior to non-braided ones?

Boom

[macromicroman]

One advantage is that the seller probably makes more profit from the sale.

[405x5]

Jun 2, 2022 9:04:50 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Dave @ GR Research claims that braided cables are superior (to non-braided ones) because they are less prone to act as RF antennas. But it occurs to me that:

1. The speakers can't reproduce radio frequencies, so it shouldn't matter to the speakers and

2. The amplifier won't care because any RF collected by the speaker wires will be shorted directly to ground.

So is there any scientific reason why braided speaker wires would be inherently superior to non-braided ones?

Boom

Dave @ GR Research and scientific research is an oxymoron.

[KeithL]

Stranded cables are better than solid cables because they are more flexible.

This makes them easier to work with, they stay in position, and they don't work their way loose over time.

(No matter how tight you make the binding post solid cables always seem to eventually force the nut to back off and loosen.)

(Otherwise plain old house wiring Romex cable would be great for speaker wires.)

However I am not aware of any significant benefit of braided over twisted stranded cable.

They may be a tiny bit less likely to get "loose stray strands" if you insert them roughly into a small hole.

(But, to me, they are also more prone to "catching" on your wire stripper when you strip the cable, and so more annoying to work with.)

Now, if you're talking about braiding the entire wires together, like using multiple insulated conductors, and then braiding them all together (like Kimber cable does).

I don't see any particular problem with that...

But I also don't see any particular benefit either.

(I guess it might make them slightly more resistant to picking up certain obscure sorts of noise... but I kind of doubt it.)

It is actually true that RF interference can affect an amplifier's performance via the speaker cable... although it is not at all common.

It is not shorted to ground since the amplifier is not designed to deal with it... (and may or may not bypass it to ground).

As a result it can end up modulating the output or causing other problems if it "gets in through the feedback loop"...

(We're talking about "hearing your neighbor's ham radio conversations faintly out of your speakers".)

(I should add that this was a lot more common with tube gear - for various reasons.)

However, this is pretty rare, and the solution would be to use SHIELDED speaker cables.

But:

1. It is really rare so I wouldn't worry about it unless you hear it happening.

2. Shielded speaker cables may have significant capacitance - which may ALSO cause serious issues with some amplifiers.
    As in... oscillation on the output and causing some amplifiers to blow fuses or actually damage themselves.
   (So I would avoid them unless you have reason to believe that you NEED them.)

3. I cannot see why braided stranded wires would be any better than normal twisted stranded wires in this regard.

So, if you hear funny little noises every now and then, try moving the speaker wires around.

If it's RF interference then it will change when you move the wire around... or even when you touch it.

And, if you're convinced you're having that problem, then consider shielded speaker cables.

(And look for ones with pretty low capacitance... as opposed to some goofy audiophile ones that have dangerously high capacitance.)

The single best piece of advice I can offer regarding "fancy" speaker cables is:

"Speaker cables really aren't that big a deal; avoid trying to fix problems you DON'T have." 

Or, to use the original phrasing: "If it ain't broke - don't fix it".

(And maybe: "If it ain't broke then don't let someone convince you that it is - especially if they're trying to sell you something.")

Incidentally... (spoiler)...  

Keep an eye out for some new Emotiva cables... coming soon (no more details yet).

One hint... they're blue-ish.

Jun 2, 2022 9:04:50 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Dave @ GR Research claims that braided cables are superior (to non-braided ones) because they are less prone to act as RF antennas. But it occurs to me that:

1. The speakers can't reproduce radio frequencies, so it shouldn't matter to the speakers and

2. The amplifier won't care because any RF collected by the speaker wires will be shorted directly to ground.

So is there any scientific reason why braided speaker wires would be inherently superior to non-braided ones?

Boom

[405x5]

Stranded is the way to go.
Solid= NOTHING but trouble for loudspeakers.
Solid serves only to be forced to make hardware connection choices in order to assure the connections every step of the way. Who needs this??

[Boomzilla]

The “test” that was performed involved hooking identical lengths of speaker cables to.the antenna terminals of a tuner & then comparing the RF signal strength (in the FM band). The four wires compared were:

1. Zip cord
2. Twisted pair
3. 6- insulated braided strands
4. 32- insulated braided strands

All “strands” in all 4 wire sets were multi-stranded (no solid wires).

Results: Zip cord made a good antenna (50%+ signal strength). Twisted pair also picked up RF well (40%ish strength). Six-braid rejected most RF (25%ish strength). The 32-braid barely got over background level signal strength. The No. 4 cable was OFHC copper stranded with Teflon insulation (similar to Kimber 12-TC).

Since my system has no RF problems (that I know of), I’ll assume I would receive no benefit from the braided wire?

[KeithL]

Your last line is the whole point...

As far as FM reception a stranded wire is going to be exactly the same as a solid one.

And virtually ANY piece of wire makes a good FM antenna...

(Here in Franklin I can get acceptable reception with a few stations on my RMC-1 with a bent paper clip...)

I'm assuming that they grounded one of the two conductors on each wire tested (which makes sense for a speaker wire).

And, in that configuration, I would expect the braid to pick up less RF noise.

HOWEVER, that is all moot, since the few microvolts of signal that an FM tuner requires isn't going to bother any amplifier.

In other words, unless you have an amplifier that is remarkably sensitive to RF noise, their test is both legitimate and pointless... because it doesn't matter.

I would also note that the FM band is from 88-108 mHz, which is a relatively high frequency band, and generally carries relatively low power.

You are a lot more likely to encounter much larger amounts of RF noise in lower bands like AM, or in very high bands, like the ones used by cell phones and WiFi.

So it would have made much more sense to test it with a WiFi router, or a cell phone, or a walkie talkie...

And to try to show that one or another of them caused interference with an actual amplifier...

(All they really did was prove that their wire makes a lousy FM antenna.)

So, in other words, they demonstrated that they have a pretty good solution, to a problem that doesn't exist.

However, in all fairness, as long as the total gauge cross-section for each conductor set adds up to to a reasonable total, it should work just fine.

And you can make the braid in all sorts of pretty color combinations...

Red and blue should be quite psychedelic... and great for acid rock.

Also... one word of warning...

Teflon is somewhat soft (you can actually strip Teflon insulated solid-conductor wire by pinching it in a pair of smooth pliers).

Therefore, unless they include some sort of protective outer sleeve, I would really worry about their wire being easy to damage...

Especially if you step on it, on a hard floor, or perhaps pinch it between the bottom of a speaker and the floor, or roll or drag something over it...

Even with an outer sleeve, if you crush the braid too hard, or step on it, there is a good chance you'll rupture the insulation and short the conductors.

I would be quite nervous about running it across a floor where it might get stepped on or rolled over.

(In contrast, PVC rubber is very tough, stands up to things like that very well, and is still far more flexible.)

Jun 2, 2022 11:47:55 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

The “test” that was performed involved hooking identical lengths of speaker cables to.the antenna terminals of a tuner & then comparing the RF signal strength (in the FM band). The four wires compared were:

1. Zip cord
2. Twisted pair
3. 6- insulated braided strands
4. 32- insulated braided strands

All “strands” in all 4 wire sets were multi-stranded (no solid wires).

Results: Zip cord made a good antenna (50%+ signal strength). Twisted pair also picked up RF well (40%ish strength). Six-braid rejected most RF (25%ish strength). The 32-braid barely got over background level signal strength. The No. 4 cable was OFHC copper stranded with Teflon insulation (similar to Kimber 12-TC).

Since my system has no RF problems (that I know of), I’ll assume I would receive no benefit from the braided wire?

[Cogito]

Jun 2, 2022 9:51:28 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Jun 2, 2022 9:04:50 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Dave @ GR Research claims that braided cables are superior (to non-braided ones) because they are less prone to act as RF antennas. But it occurs to me that:

1. The speakers can't reproduce radio frequencies, so it shouldn't matter to the speakers and

2. The amplifier won't care because any RF collected by the speaker wires will be shorted directly to ground.

So is there any scientific reason why braided speaker wires would be inherently superior to non-braided ones?

Boom

Dave @ GR Research and scientific research is an oxymoron.

I wouldn't say that. His knowledge of crossover design and speakers design is highly regarded in the industry. However, I agree when it comes to cabling, he tries to solve problems that don't exist. But then again, the cabling industry as a whole, does the exact same thing.

[donh50]

Braided cables have higher capacitance which may better filter RFI. A non-issue for any competent amp and unless you are near a radio tower. The higher capacitance could also contribute to amplifier instability, though again it is likely in the mud compared to the speaker's load impedance. Braided cables are a PITA to terminate so buy them with the connectors you want (and pray they never break). Personally I see no reason to use anything other than decent large (low AWG number, perhaps 10-14) stranded copper cables.

RFI can sneak into amplifiers via speaker cables, typically through the feedback loop to be demodulated (if AM) or just add noise at the front end that re-appears at the speaker outputs. IME/IMO forty, fifty years ago RFI was a much bigger problem than today in terms of audio amplifiers; the designs have improved and virtually all include some sort of built-in RFI filter.

FWIWFM - Don

[DYohn]

I’ve retired from discussing wire or other audiophile nervosa. Do what makes you happy.

[Boomzilla]

So exactly when might we look for new Emotiva speaker wires? Weeks? Months?

[novisnick]

Jun 7, 2022 20:59:41 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

So exactly when might we look for new Emotiva speaker wires? Weeks? Months?

Soon! 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[hemster]

Jun 7, 2022 21:24:05 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Jun 7, 2022 20:59:41 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

So exactly when might we look for new Emotiva speaker wires? Weeks? Months?

Soon! 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

I guarantee it'll be on a day ending in a "y".   🤣

[novisnick]

Jun 7, 2022 22:46:38 GMT -5 hemster said:

Jun 7, 2022 21:24:05 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Soon! 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

I guarantee it'll be on a day ending in a "y".   🤣

Exactly!

[KeithL]

Prototypes are done and approved... so my guess would be just a few more months at most.

And here's a teaser for you:

Jun 7, 2022 22:46:38 GMT -5 hemster said:

Jun 7, 2022 21:24:05 GMT -5 novisnick said:

Soon! 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

I guarantee it'll be on a day ending in a "y".   🤣

[ttocs]

Jun 8, 2022 8:48:51 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Prototypes are done and approved... so my guess would be just a few more months at most.

And here's a teaser for you:

Jun 7, 2022 22:46:38 GMT -5 hemster said:

I guarantee it'll be on a day ending in a "y".   🤣

Emotiva pens?

[405x5]

I laid out my 12 gauge speaker wiring 22 years ago and I haven’t touched it since then. Components yes. HDMI yes. The rest of it not a chance

[martindktm]

KeithL, If... And I say If... Rf signal can be catch by speaker cables... Could it be catch by the amplifier input cables (Rca)? And be amplified by the amplifier? than be heard?

I know nothing about those phenomenon and have no problems with Rf... but If I was nuts about it or selling cables I would be more worried by the input cable than the speaker one to catch sh** in the signal.

[405x5]

Jun 8, 2022 21:58:40 GMT -5 martindktm said:

KeithL, If... And I say If... Rf signal can be catch by speaker cables... Could it be catch by the amplifier input cables (Rca)? And be amplified by the amplifier? than be heard?

I know nothing about those phenomenon and have no problems with Rf... but If I was nuts about it or selling cables I would be more worried by the input cable than the speaker one to catch sh** in the signal.

The trick is not worrying about problems you don’t have.

[DavidR]

Danny deals with all the really good audio VOODOO stuff.