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Post by dtximages on Aug 15, 2022 14:56:45 GMT -5
Hello, new here and I'm no electical engineer but I bought these A1s to drive my very difficult to drive Thiel CS 3.6 speakers. However, the protection circuits trip any time I crank the volume "pretty loud". Not like stupid loud but certainly within reason. My suspicion is these speakers are just too much of a load for them. Thoughts?
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Post by boomzilla on Aug 16, 2022 11:33:11 GMT -5
Most Thiel CS series speakers are “nominal” 4-Ohm loads, but their minimum impedance is often well below the “nominal” rating. Additionally, Thiel speakers typically have VERY complex crossovers that provide even frequency and phase response from the speakers at the expense of radical reactivity variation at the amplifier. The BasX series, despite being not only an excellent sounding amp but also a true bargain for its price, is probably not the best choice for the Thiels.
You need a high current amp with 4-Ohm capability. An amp rated stable to 2-ohms would be better.
If you’re willing to risk used gear, the Emotiva XPA series amps or a Crown PSA-2 would be good choices. If you want new, I’d recommend you consider QSC “pro” amps (WITHOUT DSP) with 2-Ohm ratings.
Best of luck.
Boomzilla
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Post by dtximages on Aug 16, 2022 12:47:41 GMT -5
Most Thiel CS series speakers are “nominal” 4-Ohm loads, but their minimum impedance is often well below the “nominal” rating. Additionally, Thiel speakers typically have VERY complex crossovers that provide even frequency and phase response from the speakers at the expense of radical reactivity variation at the amplifier. The BasX series, despite being not only an excellent sounding amp but also a true bargain for its price, is probably not the best choice for the Thiels. You need a high current amp with 4-Ohm capability. An amp rated stable to 2-ohms would be better. If you’re willing to risk used gear, the Emotiva XPA series amps or a Crown PSA-2 would be good choices. If you want new, I’d recommend you consider QSC “pro” amps (WITHOUT DSP) with 2-Ohm ratings. Best of luck. Boomzilla Great info and that's what I'm learning.. Thanks! On a related note: 2 Emotiva BasX (new) amps for sale in Dallas! |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 16, 2022 14:36:13 GMT -5
Most Thiel CS series speakers are “nominal” 4-Ohm loads, but their minimum impedance is often well below the “nominal” rating. Additionally, Thiel speakers typically have VERY complex crossovers that provide even frequency and phase response from the speakers at the expense of radical reactivity variation at ………. Boomzilla ALL Thiel speakers use first order crossovers; not the problem. The current hungry low impedance is the OP’s problem. Russ |
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Post by DavidR on Aug 16, 2022 15:21:31 GMT -5
Not really complex. It looks as if they just use a lot of notch filters - both series and parallel notch circuits.
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Post by boomzilla on Aug 16, 2022 15:53:50 GMT -5
ALL Thiel speakers use first order crossovers; not the problem. The current hungry low impedance is the OP’s problem. Russ I'm sorry audiosyndrome , but you're only partially right. Although Thiel CS series speakers DO use exclusively first order crossovers, the OP's CS3.6 speakers use a 25-element crossover network implemented with 38 components. (source: www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs36-loudspeaker-page-2)  The minimum impedance is 2.5 ohms. So, yes, the low impedance is a problem, but the reactivity of the crossover is too. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 16, 2022 16:28:18 GMT -5
Boom - please stick to what you know as fact, not what you think from looking at a picture. All those components basically add up to an inductor in series with the bass drivers, and a capacitor in series with the tweeter.
David IS correct about the balance of the components in the crossover. NO ONE ever accused Thiel speakers of being “highly reactive”.
Russ
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Post by boomzilla on Aug 16, 2022 16:33:20 GMT -5
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Post by vcautokid on Aug 18, 2022 14:16:15 GMT -5
Well here is a possibility. Are we driving the preamplifier to distortion throwing the Monos into protection? Just a thought, not saying that is what is happening but curious.
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Post by dtximages on Aug 18, 2022 19:50:59 GMT -5
Well here is a possibility. Are we driving the preamplifier to distortion throwing the Monos into protection? Just a thought, not saying that is what is happening but curious. That's a question I haven't thought about as I've never really heard of that being an issue. My preamp right now (temporary) is a Marantz NR1609 receiver (hence the need for external amplification). I'm using it for its hdmi arc capabilities but it's far from a great preamp. But I didn't really think a preamp could be driven to such distortion. Am I wrong? |
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Post by creimes on Aug 18, 2022 21:11:45 GMT -5
Well here is a possibility. Are we driving the preamplifier to distortion throwing the Monos into protection? Just a thought, not saying that is what is happening but curious. That's a question I haven't thought about as I've never really heard of that being an issue. My preamp right now (temporary) is a Marantz NR1609 receiver (hence the need for external amplification). I'm using it for its hdmi arc capabilities but it's far from a great preamp. But I didn't really think a preamp could be driven to such distortion. Am I wrong? I'm guessing you are running a surround setup or is the Marantz just doing 2ch duty, I'm not sure what the output voltage would be on the 1609, the Emotiva PT-1 may be a better match ? Chad |
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Post by dtximages on Aug 23, 2022 15:07:52 GMT -5
That's a question I haven't thought about as I've never really heard of that being an issue. My preamp right now (temporary) is a Marantz NR1609 receiver (hence the need for external amplification). I'm using it for its hdmi arc capabilities but it's far from a great preamp. But I didn't really think a preamp could be driven to such distortion. Am I wrong? I'm guessing you are running a surround setup or is the Marantz just doing 2ch duty, I'm not sure what the output voltage would be on the 1609, the Emotiva PT-1 may be a better match ? Chad I am running it 2ch. I need it pretty darn loud because i like to play my drums with music. However, I'm selling the amps as I came across a Gryphon Diablo 250 integrated that is all I've ever wanted even better than any separates I've used in my main system. It handles these speakers with ease and class too. It leans to "darker" which is good on Thiels but wow is all I can say. I never thought an integrated could have this much power and poise all in one, but that's what you get when you're willing to sell an arm. |
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Post by creimes on Aug 23, 2022 17:10:11 GMT -5
I'm guessing you are running a surround setup or is the Marantz just doing 2ch duty, I'm not sure what the output voltage would be on the 1609, the Emotiva PT-1 may be a better match ? Chad I am running it 2ch. I need it pretty darn loud because i like to play my drums with music. However, I'm selling the amps as I came across a Gryphon Diablo 250 integrated that is all I've ever wanted even better than any separates I've used in my main system. It handles these speakers with ease and class too. It leans to "darker" which is good on Thiels but wow is all I can say. I never thought an integrated could have this much power and poise all in one, but that's what you get when you're willing to sell an arm. Yeah the prices on that Gryphon are a bit higher than I'm used to hahaha, I see there is a guy on US AudioMart selling 14 XPA-1G2 Monoblocks, those would be a big upgrade in power from the A1 as well. Cheers, Chad |
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Post by garbulky on Aug 24, 2022 1:45:09 GMT -5
I am running it 2ch. I need it pretty darn loud because i like to play my drums with music. However, I'm selling the amps as I came across a Gryphon Diablo 250 integrated that is all I've ever wanted even better than any separates I've used in my main system. It handles these speakers with ease and class too. It leans to "darker" which is good on Thiels but wow is all I can say. I never thought an integrated could have this much power and poise all in one, but that's what you get when you're willing to sell an arm. Yeah the prices on that Gryphon are a bit higher than I'm used to hahaha, I see there is a guy on US AudioMart selling 14 XPA-1G2 Monoblocks, those would be a big upgrade in power from the A1 as well. Cheers, Chad Omg absolutely |
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Post by bluemeanies on Aug 25, 2022 15:10:24 GMT -5
Most Thiel CS series speakers are “nominal” 4-Ohm loads, but their minimum impedance is often well below the “nominal” rating. Additionally, Thiel speakers typically have VERY complex crossovers that provide even frequency and phase response from the speakers at the expense of radical reactivity variation at the amplifier. The BasX series, despite being not only an excellent sounding amp but also a true bargain for its price, is probably not the best choice for the Thiels. You need a high current amp with 4-Ohm capability. An amp rated stable to 2-ohms would be better. If you’re willing to risk used gear, the Emotiva XPA series amps or a Crown PSA-2 would be good choices. If you want new, I’d recommend you consider QSC “pro” amps (WITHOUT DSP) with 2-Ohm ratings. Best of luck. Boomzilla Great info and that's what I'm learning.. Thanks! On a related note: 2 Emotiva BasX (new) amps for sale in Dallas! I am not an engineer either but if it is in your budget and I know it may be a giant leap…MCINTOSH can handle any power hungry beast of speakers and some rated to carry 2ohm speakers…nothing wrong with going used. Any high end product I purchased used I found to be in great condition. People who spend big bucks don’t trash their equipment. That’s not to say that lower end products get abused. Just know that buying high end be confident you have quality and pride of ownership. Someone taught me this not to long ago.😀 Best of luck |
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Post by leonski on Aug 26, 2022 1:23:45 GMT -5
Most Thiel CS series speakers are “nominal” 4-Ohm loads, but their minimum impedance is often well below the “nominal” rating. Additionally, Thiel speakers typically have VERY complex crossovers that provide even frequency and phase response from the speakers at the expense of radical reactivity variation at the amplifier. The BasX series, despite being not only an excellent sounding amp but also a true bargain for its price, is probably not the best choice for the Thiels. You need a high current amp with 4-Ohm capability. An amp rated stable to 2-ohms would be better. If you’re willing to risk used gear, the Emotiva XPA series amps or a Crown PSA-2 would be good choices. If you want new, I’d recommend you consider QSC “pro” amps (WITHOUT DSP) with 2-Ohm ratings. Best of luck. Boomzilla Boom, You HAD me right up until recommending gear. Yep......Some Thiel can be awful and between lowish impedance you also note High Reactance.....speaker looks alternately more like a capacitor or inductor to the partnering amp. This property......You might want to call it power factor......sucks the life out of lesser amps... Regardless or power into a resistor..... I'm going to violate my own rule here and say that a couple older KRELL can take it. Also? Maybe some Pass Labs from the XA .5 series (buy used from Reno HiFi?) It would ALSO be well worth while to read thru old STEREOPHILE reviews of Thiel Speakers and check out what THEY used as 'partnering equipment'...... www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-associated-equipmentKeep in mind that over a decade ago, these were 12000$ speakers. You may also want to check out the mesurements page.....and see a real treat for the partnering amp. |
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Post by boomzilla on Aug 26, 2022 6:25:43 GMT -5
Boom, You HAD me right up until recommending gear. Yep......Some Thiel can be awful and between lowish impedance you also note High Reactance.....speaker looks alternately more like a capacitor or inductor to the partnering amp. This property......You might want to call it power factor......sucks the life out of lesser amps... Regardless or power into a resistor..... I'm going to violate my own rule here and say that a couple older KRELL can take it. Also? Maybe some Pass Labs from the XA .5 series (buy used from Reno HiFi?) It would ALSO be well worth while to read thru old STEREOPHILE reviews of Thiel Speakers and check out what THEY used as 'partnering equipment'...... www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-associated-equipmentKeep in mind that over a decade ago, these were 12000$ speakers. You may also want to check out the mesurements page.....and see a real treat for the partnering amp. I'd agree wholeheartedly with Krell or Pass amps. I've also found McIntosh to work well with Thiel. As previously pointed out, though, Thiel CS speakers may have low impedance, but their reactance isn't as bad as you might think. Jim Thiel himself said he designed his crossovers for low reactance (despite the number of components used). Also, I know for a fact that Crown PSA-2 amplifiers are PERFECT for big Thiel speakers. My amigo uses one to power his CS-5i speakers and the amp sounds heavenly. The PSA-2 is rated for 2-Ohm loads, and gets along famously with Thiel speakers. |
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Aug 26, 2022 9:10:39 GMT -5
There are certain speakers that are legitimately very difficult to drive because they have a very low and very reactive impedance. Most notably these include several models of older Martin Logan electrostatic panels - a few of whose impedance drops below 2 Ohms at 20 kHz. There are also some speakers that have a reputation of being difficult to drive when in fact they are not. The most common are Magneplanars, which have a slightly low impedance, but whose impedance is actually quite benign, and which are actually easy to drive. (They just require an amplifier that can deliver a significant amount of power.) I've only heard a few claims that Thiels are "difficult to drive" so I'm not sure whether that claim makes sense or not. (It's also worth mentioning that amps twenty or thirty years ago were a lot more sensitive to this sort of thing so older amps are more likely to have problems with a given speaker.) Another thing worth mentioning is that some speakers work best with an amplifier that has a high DAMPING FACTOR... And while, "in the old days", most amps with high damping factors were also considered "high current amps", this isn't really a thing any more either. (Virtually all well-designed modern solid state amps have a high damping factor. And, of course, tube amps do not.) And, finally, DO NOT assume that "an amplifier that is able to deliver a lot of current" will also be "stable into highly reactive loads". Not all low impedance speakers are especially reactive and not all highly reactive speakers have a very low impedance and require a lot of current. (Magneplanars, which have a relatively low impedance, but which aren't very reactive at all, are a perfect example.) So, while the design considerations for both of those claims are somewhat related, they are quite different things. (I guess it's also worth mentioning that, while many Class-D amps are stable into reactive loads, some do behave oddly or unpredictably with reactive loads.) Most Thiel CS series speakers are “nominal” 4-Ohm loads, but their minimum impedance is often well below the “nominal” rating. Additionally, Thiel speakers typically have VERY complex crossovers that provide even frequency and phase response from the speakers at the expense of radical reactivity variation at the amplifier. The BasX series, despite being not only an excellent sounding amp but also a true bargain for its price, is probably not the best choice for the Thiels. You need a high current amp with 4-Ohm capability. An amp rated stable to 2-ohms would be better. If you’re willing to risk used gear, the Emotiva XPA series amps or a Crown PSA-2 would be good choices. If you want new, I’d recommend you consider QSC “pro” amps (WITHOUT DSP) with 2-Ohm ratings. Best of luck. Boomzilla Boom, You HAD me right up until recommending gear. Yep......Some Thiel can be awful and between lowish impedance you also note High Reactance.....speaker looks alternately more like a capacitor or inductor to the partnering amp. This property......You might want to call it power factor......sucks the life out of lesser amps... Regardless or power into a resistor..... I'm going to violate my own rule here and say that a couple older KRELL can take it. Also? Maybe some Pass Labs from the XA .5 series (buy used from Reno HiFi?) It would ALSO be well worth while to read thru old STEREOPHILE reviews of Thiel Speakers and check out what THEY used as 'partnering equipment'...... www.stereophile.com/content/thiel-cs37-loudspeaker-associated-equipmentKeep in mind that over a decade ago, these were 12000$ speakers. You may also want to check out the mesurements page.....and see a real treat for the partnering amp. |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Aug 26, 2022 9:16:24 GMT -5
Just "for the record"... In the speaker design industry a speaker is generally considered to be "well behaved" as long as its impedance doesn't dip below about 3/4 of its nominal impedance over a significant frequency range. So "a well behaved 4 Ohm speaker" should stay mostly above 3 Ohms... and "a well behaved 8 Ohm speaker" should stay mostly above 6 Ohms Occasional narrow dips slightly below that are not considered to be a problem... And peaks well above that, especially at the cabinet or passive radiator tuning frequency on tuned designs, are to be expected, and are not at all problematic. Most Thiel CS series speakers are “nominal” 4-Ohm loads, but their minimum impedance is often well below the “nominal” rating. Additionally, Thiel speakers typically have VERY complex crossovers that provide even frequency and phase response from the speakers at the expense of radical reactivity variation at the amplifier. The BasX series, despite being not only an excellent sounding amp but also a true bargain for its price, is probably not the best choice for the Thiels. You need a high current amp with 4-Ohm capability. An amp rated stable to 2-ohms would be better. If you’re willing to risk used gear, the Emotiva XPA series amps or a Crown PSA-2 would be good choices. If you want new, I’d recommend you consider QSC “pro” amps (WITHOUT DSP) with 2-Ohm ratings. Best of luck. Boomzilla |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 26, 2022 9:20:16 GMT -5
… I've only heard a few claims that Thiels are "difficult to drive" so I'm not sure whether that claim makes sense or not. … So why do you think the A1s are shutting down with the Thiels? |
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