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Post by gus4emo on Sept 21, 2022 17:19:13 GMT -5
Hi all, I know all are not created equal, but what is or has been your experience with speakers of the kind I just named this thread, subwoofer or not?
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Sept 21, 2022 17:59:47 GMT -5
After the crummy small speakers on an all in one stereo system, the first speakers I really liked were my DIY single-full-range-12"-speaker in ported cabinets I made as a teenager.
Then I bought The Advent acoustic suspension speakers and enjoyed them very much. I just didn't have the power for them, and didn't know this until after I sold them to a very happy guy with a much better amp that was able to make them sound fabulous!
Next I had JBL L-110 ported speakers and used them for 32 gloriously happy years.
The above are all speakers with 12" or 10" woofers. 1 way ported, 2 way sealed, and 3 way ported designs. I was happiest with the ported JBL speakers. These were all with no thought of subwoofers, so the bass had to be produced by the two boxes in the room.
With subwoofers I prefer sealed, definitely. I also prefer lots of subwoofers for the better dynamics. I've had ported, passive radiator, and straight up sealed. I can get full satisfaction by spreading various frequency ranges amongst the sealed subwoofer group so some are working hard on a limited range in the lowest freqs, and others work less hard on higher frequencies. So, sealed.
My current main speakers have sealed woofers also. The stat panels are, well, just out there baby, and lovin' every minute of it! (Kramer on Seinfeld)
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 21, 2022 18:38:45 GMT -5
Speakers are NOT what they used to be. In the '60s, the only way to get good bass out of a small cabinet was to use sealed box design. AR, Advent, & others led the charge.
In the '70s, the science of accurate porting came along & companies like JBL, Electro-Voice etc. came into their own.
In the '80s, the science of passive radiators came along & did away with "port chuffing."
In the '90s to 2000s, Home Theater came along and speakers went to Hell in a handbasket. We've never recovered.
It's not unusual today to find $4,000 per pair tower speakers with the bass response of $100/pair bookshelf speakers. Manufacturers (generally) don't bother designing for lower bass any more because they assume that all customers in their price range will already have subwoofers.
That said, KUDOS to Emotiva and GoldenEar (to name two) who buck the trend and still try to provide bass with their tower speakers. A lot of manufacturers, however, publish specifications saying that their towers have bass response to the 30s, but in fact, they're (optimistically) citing "room response" instead of anechoic. This makes it totally impossible for the consumer to meaningfully compare speaker specifications. You can make any speaker measure like a bass monster if you test it in a bathroom...
A good two-way speaker can sound fine (if you don't want to play it too loudly). A good three-way speaker can sound better, even at lower volumes. The quality of the drivers, the crossover components, and the cabinet design all play into how the speaker will sound. My favorite speaker brands (current production only, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch):
GoldenEar
Vandersteen
KEF
Emotiva
Revel
Avalon
Axiom Audio
Boomzilla
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Post by audiosyndrome on Sept 21, 2022 19:03:51 GMT -5
“The only good two way is a three way” - Andrew Jones.
Russ
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 21, 2022 20:04:19 GMT -5
Sometimes things are strange, my main stereo system's speaker set up is an Outlaw sub with a pair of Deftech SM55, I love it, especially at high volume, couple of months ago I got a pair of cheap Yamaha 3 way speakers to use for zone 2 with a Yamaha receiver, I can not turn it loud like the main zone, and I don't have to, it's ok though, but I do notice some songs I hear a little bit of more detail, I don't mean more quality...
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 22, 2022 7:09:40 GMT -5
Anyone else??
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Post by 405x5 on Sept 22, 2022 8:19:35 GMT -5
My system employs a combination (HT) of two AND three way systems. Which is better depends on who built them and your own preference as to what sounds best to your ears. Some manufacturers over the years claimed 2 way were the best when designed properly. Not so with the drivers that are my preference but again, subjectivity comes into play. I’m “sealed” all the way from center channel to sub. |
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Post by marcl on Sept 22, 2022 8:27:01 GMT -5
I have a pair of Dynaco A25's from the 70's and a pair of Smaller Advents (woofers expertly refoamed) if anyone would like to buy them for a deeply discounted price  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 22, 2022 9:30:16 GMT -5
Now THAT's a "blast from the past". At various points I had a pair of A25's and a pair of Larger Advents (the nice ones with the real wood cabinets).  I have a pair of Dynaco A25's from the 70's and a pair of Smaller Advents (woofers expertly refoamed) if anyone would like to buy them for a deeply discounted price |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 22, 2022 9:51:18 GMT -5
"Acoustic suspension" is just a fancy name for a relatively small sealed cabinet (as opposed to a sealed cabinet so large that the air doesn't actually act as a spring) . (Many very early speakers had relatively large, thin, or poorly sealed cabinets... which didn't really count as sealed enclosures for modelling purposes.) In general, "all else being equal", for a relatively small cabinet... A sealed speaker will start rolling off sooner, but will roll off more gradually, and deliver useful output down to much lower frequencies... A ported cabinet is usually tuned such that it is flatter, and delivers more bass efficiency down to its tuning frequency, but its output drops off sharply below that... (Modern tuned port speakers are usually tuned to quite low frequencies... which enables them to deliver low bass... but many older speakers were not.) Also, and really important back in the days of vinyl, but not a big deal today... With a sealed cabinet the woofer will move less at very low frequencies; its movement is limited by the "air spring" of the cabinet volume. A ported speaker is the exact opposite; the port tuning controls the woofer's movement at the tuning frequency but offers no control at all below that. As a result, while the woofers on tuned port speakers have little usable output below their tuned frequency, they tend to exhibit more motion at very low frequencies. Because of this, and because the RIAA equalization used on vinyl boost low frequencies significantly, a warped record will often cause a LOT of woofer movement on a tuned-port speaker. (To the point where it can not only cause clearly audible modulation noise but can actually destroy the speaker.) Modern speakers handle this somewhat better than most older speakers; and modern turntables seem to handle warped records somewhat better as well. The idea with three-way speakers is that it is difficult to create two drivers that can handle the full audible frequency range well. (The design requirements to optimize a speaker drive for low frequencies, and for high frequencies, are almost directly opposite each other.) As a result, speakers with woofers large enough to deliver lots of low bass, and tweeters small enough to offer good high frequency dispersion, tended to have trouble in the midrange. (For example Larger Advents, which were two way speakers, were notorious for having prodigious low bass, and "pretty good highs", but being "a bit weak in the midrange".) The drawbacks of three-way speakers are that more drivers cost more, they require a more complex crossover, and the design itself is significantly more complex. (You have three sound sources, which can interact with each other and the cabinet, and which overlap in two different frequency ranges.) This means that, while in theory a three-way speaker can perform better, it's more difficult to "get it right", and there are more ways in which you can get it wrong. Hi all, I know all are not created equal, but what is or has been your experience with speakers of the kind I just named this thread, subwoofer or not? |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Sept 22, 2022 10:01:06 GMT -5
As a result, while the woofers on tuned port speakers have little usable output below their tuned frequency, they tend to exhibit more motion at very low frequencies. Because of this, and because the RIAA equalization used on vinyl boost low frequencies significantly, a warped record will often cause a LOT of woofer movement on a tuned-port speaker. (To the point where it can not only cause clearly audible modulation noise but can actually destroy the speaker.) Due to this I had to use the Subsonic Filter on my Sansui AU-717. Without it, the woofer would move a lot from turntable rumble and feedback. |
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 22, 2022 20:05:22 GMT -5
"Acoustic suspension" is just a fancy name for a relatively small sealed cabinet (as opposed to a sealed cabinet so large that the air doesn't actually act as a spring) . (Many very early speakers had relatively large, thin, or poorly sealed cabinets... which didn't really count as sealed enclosures for modelling purposes.) In general, "all else being equal", for a relatively small cabinet... A sealed speaker will start rolling off sooner, but will roll off more gradually, and deliver useful output down to much lower frequencies... A ported cabinet is usually tuned such that it is flatter, and delivers more bass efficiency down to its tuning frequency, but its output drops off sharply below that... (Modern tuned port speakers are usually tuned to quite low frequencies... which enables them to deliver low bass... but many older speakers were not.) Also, and really important back in the days of vinyl, but not a big deal today... With a sealed cabinet the woofer will move less at very low frequencies; its movement is limited by the "air spring" of the cabinet volume. A ported speaker is the exact opposite; the port tuning controls the woofer's movement at the tuning frequency but offers no control at all below that. As a result, while the woofers on tuned port speakers have little usable output below their tuned frequency, they tend to exhibit more motion at very low frequencies. Because of this, and because the RIAA equalization used on vinyl boost low frequencies significantly, a warped record will often cause a LOT of woofer movement on a tuned-port speaker. (To the point where it can not only cause clearly audible modulation noise but can actually destroy the speaker.) Modern speakers handle this somewhat better than most older speakers; and modern turntables seem to handle warped records somewhat better as well. The idea with three-way speakers is that it is difficult to create two drivers that can handle the full audible frequency range well. (The design requirements to optimize a speaker drive for low frequencies, and for high frequencies, are almost directly opposite each other.) As a result, speakers with woofers large enough to deliver lots of low bass, and tweeters small enough to offer good high frequency dispersion, tended to have trouble in the midrange. (For example Larger Advents, which were two way speakers, were notorious for having prodigious low bass, and "pretty good highs", but being "a bit weak in the midrange".) The drawbacks of three-way speakers are that more drivers cost more, they require a more complex crossover, and the design itself is significantly more complex. (You have three sound sources, which can interact with each other and the cabinet, and which overlap in two different frequency ranges.) This means that, while in theory a three-way speaker can perform better, it's more difficult to "get it right", and there are more ways in which you can get it wrong. Hi all, I know all are not created equal, but what is or has been your experience with speakers of the kind I just named this thread, subwoofer or not? Ok, can you name a real good 3 way speaker that can handle up to 150 watts RMS? |
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 22, 2022 20:08:38 GMT -5
My system employs a combination (HT) of two AND three way systems. Which is better depends on who built them and your own preference as to what sounds best to your ears. Some manufacturers over the years claimed 2 way were the best when designed properly. Not so with the drivers that are my preference but again, subjectivity comes into play. I’m “sealed” all the way from center channel to sub. I used to have a real good sounding NHT set up, bookshelf speakers and the sub were sealed.... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 23, 2022 7:32:31 GMT -5
Hi gus4emo - Good GOD! Why would you want to play a speaker at 150 watts? Are you trying to do PA for a football stadium? Or perhaps you’re trying to make a point about how speaker makers publish “optimistic” specs? Most “good” speakers might (might…) be able to handle a 150watt instantaneous peak, but few if any “consumer” speakers would last for more than a few seconds at 150 watt continuous input. |
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 23, 2022 7:41:02 GMT -5
Hi gus4emo - Good GOD! Why would you want to play a speaker at 150 watts? Are you trying to do PA for a football stadium? Or perhaps you’re trying to make a point about how speaker makers publish “optimistic” specs? Most “good” speakers might (might…) be able to handle a 150watt instantaneous peak, but few if any “consumer” speakers would last for more than a few seconds at 150 watt continuous input. I have a pair of Deftech SM55 (for music), and a pair of HSU HB1s (for movies), they both can handle over 200 watts RMS, I have pushed both pairs at high volume for hours with the XPA200, which is 150 watts per channel, and everything is good... |
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Post by marcl on Sept 23, 2022 7:48:34 GMT -5
All about precise language, right? An amplifier can be rated at X watts RMS, and maybe it is capable of such on the bench ... for a short period of time. And you can hook it up to a speaker and play the speaker LOUD ... that does not mean the the amplifier is delivering X watts RMS ... ever!
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Post by gus4emo on Sept 23, 2022 8:55:24 GMT -5
All about precise language, right? An amplifier can be rated at X watts RMS, and maybe it is capable of such on the bench ... for a short period of time. And you can hook it up to a speaker and play the speaker LOUD ... that does not mean the the amplifier is delivering X watts RMS ... ever! Just like a speaker can be rated at X watts, but it's not.....RELATIVITY?? |
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Post by marcl on Sept 23, 2022 8:59:43 GMT -5
All about precise language, right? An amplifier can be rated at X watts RMS, and maybe it is capable of such on the bench ... for a short period of time. And you can hook it up to a speaker and play the speaker LOUD ... that does not mean the the amplifier is delivering X watts RMS ... ever! Just like a speaker can be rated at X watts, but it's not.....RELATIVITY?? I wonder how they do that too ... play a sine wave and turn it up until you see smoke?  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 23, 2022 10:28:00 GMT -5
OK... here's the thing.
Music itself is dynamic...
One widely accepted approximation is that....
- if you are playing "normal commercial rock, pop, or classical music"
- and you turn it up until it is just starting to clip
- the AVERAGE level will be between 1/10 and 1/20 of the PEAK level
So...
- if you have an amplifier rated for 200 watts RMS
- and you turn one channel up until it just starts to audibly clip
- you're probably at around 250 watts peak
- and around 15-25 watts AVERAGE
When an amplifier is rated "200 watts RMS continuous" we mean: "it can deliver 200 watts, continuously, for at least several seconds, and probably for much longer".
When a SPEAKER is rated as "200 watts RMS" what most people mean is: "you can safely connect that speaker to a 200 watt amplifier and turn that amplifier up all the way - AS LONG AS IT ISN'T CLIPPING".
(It is a sort of unspoken assumption that turning the amplifier up past clipping is NOT the way you're supposed to operate it and so is "abuse" - of both the amplifier and speaker.)
THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT USED TO BE CONSIDERED "OBVIOUS" BUT SEEMINGLY AREN'T SO WELL KNOWN TODAY:
1.
It is an industry truism that "more tweeters are blown by amplifiers that aren't powerful enough than by amplifiers that are too powerful".
And another equally well-known truism is "turning an amplifier up until it is clipping a lot will PROBABLY blow your tweeters".
Basically, with normal music, while there is a lot of variation, there is a more or less similar distribution of the amount of energy at various frequencies.
With a typical three-way speaker you might see 65% going to the woofer, 25% going to the midrange, and 10% going to the tweeter.
This means that, with our "200 watt speaker", and assuming the amp is playing loudly, but isn't clipping, the tweeter would probably be seeing about 10 watts peak (and one or two watts average).
(And, since many tweeters can tolerate 10-20, watts this works out just fine.)
HOWEVER, if you cause the amp to clip heavily, those nice smooth musical waveforms turn into flat-topped square waves.
And, as it turns out, with square waves, a MUCH higher percentage of even low and mid frequency square waves ends up being sent to the tweeter.
So, for example, if you have a mere 100 watt amplifier, but you turn it up into "hard clipping", you might see 30 watts going to the tweeter...
And not only will this sound really awful... but it's more power than the tweeters on many "200 watt speakers" can tolerate for more than a few seconds.
2.
Professional stage speakers and "club speakers" are designed to be able to play very loudly and to survive serious abuse.
Home high-fidelity speakers, in contrast, are designed to sound good.
In fact it is generally assumed that people who purchase high fidelity speakers won't abuse them - because they value both their speakers and their hearing.
Therefore:
- most home speakers simply cannot play anywhere near as loudly as stage or club speakers
- most home speakers are far more likely to be damaged or destroyed if you attempt to play them that loudly
- most manufacturers will consider this abuse (and so it may void your warranty)
(The general consideration is that, if you turn your amplifier up until clipping is audibly obvious, then you are abusing your amplifier and your speakers.)
It's also worth mentioning that, in the past, some speakers incorporated mechanisms designed to protect them from abuse by limiting the audio signal.
Likewise many amplifiers incorporated circuits that "soft limited" peaks to avoid "hard clipping".
It is now widely accepted that most of these limiters and protection circuits had "unpleasant audible side effects"...
For this reason they are now almost never found on modern high quality audio gear.
In the old days many speakers also incorporated protection fuses...
While these are also no longer offered (for the reason stated above)... you can easily add inline fuses to your speaker connections if you choose to do so.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Sept 23, 2022 15:08:30 GMT -5
This has been a good discussion. Time for a curve ball. None of this matters. The only thing that matters is that the listener enjoys their system. It could be a cheap bluetooth speaker or a sophisticated multi-system surround array with a one-chair sweet spot. If you like it and enjoy listening to your music then you are winning. Period. If you want to try new things then do. That's the fun of this hobby. Go shopping and listen, but since that is difficult in today's world then buy from on-line companies with trial and return policies, or with a good resell market on Flea-Bay, or be a flea-bay customer and buy used. Buy some Emotiva X-series and try them out. But don't trust anyone else's opinion. Make up your own mind with your own ears. That's all that matters. |
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