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Post by geebo on Oct 11, 2024 20:33:46 GMT -5
Ok, so what if you sold your 5 year old TV that you paid $3K for and got $1K that you put towards a new $3k TV? Does that mean you paid $5k for the same TV someone can buy for $3k? I think that's what you're suggesting? Whether or not the value to you is worth upgrading or not is completely up to you. That's your decision to make. In my opinion (and that's worth what you paid for it) is that $1.5k for the upgrade and new warranty is very generous and one I'll take advantage of as soon as it's available. But that's me. You can give "what if" scenarios all day. Normal depreciation logic does not work in electronics when the new item is often better and cheaper. You could buy a TV for $1K today that would probably be as good or better than the TV you paid $3K for 5 years ago. Trust me, I've been there. That's not the point anyway. The point is that Emotiva clearly recognized that it would be more fair to offset SOME of the added cost and planned to do just that. Now they're not doing that any more. Seems like a logical progression for someone to rather pay $699 for something instead of $1500 for the exact same thing. Shouldn't need any more "what if" scenarios to follow that logic, but that's me. Hey, we've all been "there". More than once. Who wouldn't rather pay $699 than $1,499? That doesn't mean $1,499 is not a very generous offer. Maybe it isn't to you in which case you'll have to decide which course you'll take. I know mine. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Oct 11, 2024 20:34:12 GMT -5
Anyone, please raise your hand if you’re going to install 8 subs. Hmm, that’s what I thought 😜 Russ Yes, I have 4 subs now and plan to go to 8 as I finish the HT room. Being able to manage all of them through DLBC would be great! I could then repurpose my miniDSP Flex to some other projects. Wow, wow, hold on hold on We’re up to two (potential) people with 8 subs. Who wouda thought? Russ |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Oct 11, 2024 20:50:10 GMT -5
Yes, I have 4 subs now and plan to go to 8 as I finish the HT room. Being able to manage all of them through DLBC would be great! I could then repurpose my miniDSP Flex to some other projects. Wow, wow, hold on hold on We’re up to two (potential) people with 8 subs. Who wouda thought? Russ You'll find many setups with many subs on the miniDSP forum and miniDSP FB page. There are quite a few on this forum, and many more on other forums, it's not difficult to find others with many subs. I've personally spoken to folks from this forum with many subs, some of whom are in other countries, one who has 24 subwoofers. There are many creative ways to enjoy our hobby. It's great to share our fun with each other, isn't it? So please, enjoy. |
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hddave
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Post by hddave on Oct 12, 2024 9:33:59 GMT -5
Seems like a logical progression for someone to rather pay $699 for something instead of $1500 for the exact same thing. The + processor offering for $699 is not exactly like the current offering. They differ in at least several ways. You may lookup these differences by reviewing this thread and the Official Emofest Notes by KlineMJ thread from over the last week, and viewing the official podcast from yesterday. I watched the podcast and that's what got me to the Lounge. I've addressed how the differences provide no added value to me. Taking away the Burr Browns actually makes it a step down from what they were originally offering, in my opinion. So, OK, not the exact same thing, but nothing more useful. |
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richb
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Post by richb on Oct 12, 2024 10:07:06 GMT -5
The + processor offering for $699 is not exactly like the current offering. They differ in at least several ways. You may lookup these differences by reviewing this thread and the Official Emofest Notes by KlineMJ thread from over the last week, and viewing the official podcast from yesterday. I watched the podcast and that's what got me to the Lounge. I've addressed how the differences provide no added value to me. Taking away the Burr Browns actually makes it a step down from what they were originally offering, in my opinion. So, OK, not the exact same thing, but nothing more useful. I can't say if the Burr Brown DACs implementation is better or worse. The $1500 upgrade from RMC-1 to RMC-1+ is very compelling and more than fair for me. Since spaces is not an issue, the RMC-1+ makes sense, for cooling as well as expansion. The Plus series shows continuity and provides expandability not realized by the RMC-1. I am not surprised that the future is not predicable, this is why expandable products seldom deliver. Power, heat, interfaces, and cost all combine to render major updates impractical. I understand the L folks have other constraints, but those were not the upgradable processors, so... This Plus series will use more power, that means more heat, this seems to be true for most 8K processors. If the switching time and reliability is improved, then that is a big deal. If the upgrade is not worth it to you, then fine. Don't. I will though.  - Rich |
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richb
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Post by richb on Oct 12, 2024 10:35:23 GMT -5
You can give "what if" scenarios all day. Normal depreciation logic does not work in electronics when the new item is often better and cheaper. You could buy a TV for $1K today that would probably be as good or better than the TV you paid $3K for 5 years ago. Trust me, I've been there. That's not the point anyway. The point is that Emotiva clearly recognized that it would be more fair to offset SOME of the added cost and planned to do just that. Now they're not doing that any more. Seems like a logical progression for someone to rather pay $699 for something instead of $1500 for the exact same thing. Shouldn't need any more "what if" scenarios to follow that logic, but that's me. Large channel count processors and AVRS are not getting cheaper. The follow-on product from JBL has some fixes and 8K. That's it. No new web interface, streaming, or variants. The price increases and the original product is discontinued, and your trade up is via eBay. There is plenty of Dirac vaporware as well. Everything is a black box, so there is no telling if all Dirac implementations perform equally well. The customer should always be wary of claims for support for future products. Dirac is not kind to the platforms, others have been burned... Personally, I have two subs but full range speakers that could potentially benefit from Dirac ART, that seems far more aligned with bass management than full range correction. Room treatments can improve a room. Processing can improve bass below Shroeder. Software cannot fix a speaker, better speakers do that. I find nothing about Dirac transformative, though I will give ART a shot, if it makes it to Emotiva. It is a good for processors to become platforms, that way, Dirac goes direct to customers, when customers have issues, Dirac owns them. Everyone has their use case. Mine is as niche as 8+ subs. I use 5 channels, 2 subs, want SOA performance, fully balanced outs, fast reliably HDMI switching, on-screen display, plenty of triggers. That's it, the market is such that I have to buy 16 channels to get it. Balanced outputs are not negotiable, I've had way too many buzz and hum issues in the past, that the single-enders don't seem to understand. - Rich |
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Post by markc on Oct 12, 2024 11:13:15 GMT -5
At least they mentioned, that the click sound are gone.
We absolutely should not have to be grateful for that! This and other basic faults should have (and should be) sorted for the current range of "High End" processors (Emotiva's actual words, as it taunts me each time I do a hard reset, but most certainly not mine!) None of us should have to pay any money to upgrade and trash / trade-in our faulty processors in order to to get something that may (or may not) work at a fundamental level yet again. Triggers, Dirac, configurable OSD etc aside, I mostly just want my XMC-2 to process surround and stereo sound from two or more HDMI inputs so that the audio arrives exactly as it should to the correct speakers without any artefactual sound and with a reasonable level of good old fashioned high fidelity. |
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Post by aswiss on Oct 12, 2024 13:32:15 GMT -5
At least they mentioned, that the click sound are gone.
We absolutely should not have to be grateful for that! This and other basic faults should have (and should be) sorted for the current range of "High End" processors (Emotiva's actual words, as it taunts me each time I do a hard reset, but most certainly not mine!) None of us should have to pay any money to upgrade and trash / trade-in our faulty processors in order to to get something that may (or may not) work at a fundamental level yet again. Triggers, Dirac, configurable OSD etc aside, I mostly just want my XMC-2 to process surround and stereo sound from two or more HDMI inputs so that the audio arrives exactly as it should to the correct speakers without any artefactual sound and with a reasonable level of good old fashioned high fidelity. I agree with you. I'd better not write here what I really think about it.
I try to look forward - either the new works or not. Either the investment is worth it, or I spent an additional 1500 bucks in a Black Box, that could have been spent in something working.
Of course, I cannot buy anything of interest for that money - so it is what it is. We all cannot do anything about it.
I invested a lot of money in my Stereo Setup and there I reached my musical heaven. The Cinema part is working - and as long it does, no need for a change. I have time to see what happens.
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Post by jagman on Oct 12, 2024 13:37:44 GMT -5
I have 5 groups of subs... 1. 4 x 18" infinite baffle drivers colocated in a line array 2. 2 x 18" MBMs, one between the L&C and the other between the C&R. 3. 3 x 12" subs behind my theater back row. 4. 6 x 12" subs under my theater back row. 5. 12 x Exodus Audio Anarchy 7" woofers under my first row couch. Kind of crazy but they are now controlled by a MiniDSP 2x4HD. One 4 channel sub expansion module along with the .1 already included will work perfect for me 👍. Out of all those nearfield arrangements what is your preference? Is your mlp in the front or rear? I like this concept of creating individual waveforms that you would then let dlbc perfect. Hopefully eventually ART but I'm growing tired of looking into the future with these processors. It seems like with those line arrays you would always be better off with more channels so 1 long array can become 2 or more waveforms. One question I have is would you want to calibrate all these different subwoofer groups to your mlp or would it make more sense to calibrate them to collide at strategic points in the room? Like do you place your mic for the minidsp calibration at 1/4 or half room distances and then dlbc at your mlp etc.. And for the very nearfield are you using a vibration sensor for calibration and then correcting the map spl with the rest? I've just time aligned them for the MLP which is the middle seat in the second row which is theater style seats. Each seat has a 12" sub in a sealed enclosure immediately behind it. I also have six 12" subs built into the platform that those theater chairs are on. The 12" subs are firing upwards (two below each seat). I have a bicycle tire around each pair with a plywood sheet over the drivers so they have a pistonic effect. The mini woofers under the front row are setup similarly. 6 are downfiring to create the pistonic effect and 6 are upfiring for nearfield effect. I already had the drivers from a different project so this was just making use of something I already had, but it actually worked quite well! The four 18" drivers in the infinite baffle at the front of the theater dig really low (and effortlessly) while the 2 sealed 18' MBMs provide midbass energy the IB subs lack. I use the MiniDSP 2x4HD to time align everything and set the appropriate hi and low pass crossovers for each group of subs so they only work at select frequencies. I also have a Raspberry Pi wired to the MiniDSP so I can apply ezBEQ filters from my phone. With my subwoofer system setup this way the RMS-1 only sees one sub. Lastly I use DIRAC to set the house curve and EQ for room nodes. This setup allows low frequency output and tactile sensation to be significant yet sound/feel realistic. I'm wondering and very curious how DLBC will work with this. I'll need to get the 4 sub expansion module which should work great since I have 5 groups of subs. If I want to keep ezBEQ (which I do), I'll still need a 5 channel in and 5 channel out MiniDSP unit to apply those filters to each of the 5 sub channels. That'll be the only way to apply those filters while keeping each channel independent WRT DLBC. We shall see. At the very least it'll be a fun project 😁. |
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ttocs
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Post by ttocs on Oct 12, 2024 14:02:21 GMT -5
With my subwoofer system setup this way the RMS-1 only sees one sub. Lastly I use DIRAC to set the house curve and EQ for room nodes. This setup allows low frequency output and tactile sensation to be significant yet sound/feel realistic. I'm wondering and very curious how DLBM will work with this. I'll need to get the 4 sub expansion module which should work great since I have 5 groups of subs. If I want to keep ezBEQ (which I do), I'll still need a 5 channel in and 5 channel out MiniDSP unit to apply those filters to each of the 5 sub channels. That'll be the only way to apply those filters while keeping each channel independent WRT DLBM. We shall see. At the very least it'll be a fun project 😁. With DLBC, you can still use your setup as is and DLBC will help with crossovers for all the Small channels. This should be a vast improvement over having no help with crossovers between sub channel and Small channels. The RMC-1+ will be able to handle 7 subwoofer channels with one Subwoofer Expansion Module for 4 subs, and the 3 main board Subwoofer Outputs. Lonnie confirmed this Thursday and I posted about it. He also said he hopes that two Subwoofer Expansion Modules can be used, but that he hasn't tested this yet, saying that he "hopes they play nice together". So DLBC will see 7 subwoofer channels if they are designated as such. But getting back to your 5 Groups, DLBC will see each subwoofer output and do what DLBC does with them. PEQ can be a bit difficult to handle for Dirac, so, expect to do some experimentation with how you use PEQ and how you treat the subs in DLBC. I found that when I've used PEQ in miniDSP that I had to use it very sparingly for Dirac Live to like it. |
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Post by hifire on Oct 12, 2024 14:11:03 GMT -5
Yes, I have 4 subs now and plan to go to 8 as I finish the HT room. Being able to manage all of them through DLBC would be great! I could then repurpose my miniDSP Flex to some other projects. Wow, wow, hold on hold on We’re up to two (potential) people with 8 subs. Who wouda thought? Russ -Longtime reader(2007).rarely post.. This is all entertaining to me. I have to agree that there is probably a very limited audience that are planning or utilizing 8 subs...and those that do probably aren't married...-kidding but not. I wouldn't call myself a emo fanboy and agree that the issues the RMC-1 have had were/are frustrating. But, I still feel like Emotiva is holding up to their affordable "high-end" philosophy. As it sits today, there is nothing else out there that I can find that sounds as good as it does for the price. Would I love a Trinnov-waveform soundform terraform or Storm setup? or perhaps all of my walls composed of nothing but speakers much to my wife's horror?? Of course, I would. I have been patiently waiting for Oulaw's 997 processor with built in Trinnov since 2008...If anyone has a few suggestions of a product that would provide the quality of sound anywhere in the ballpark of Emotiva, please post them here. |
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Post by lrobertson on Oct 12, 2024 14:16:40 GMT -5
Out of all those nearfield arrangements what is your preference? Is your mlp in the front or rear? I like this concept of creating individual waveforms that you would then let dlbc perfect. Hopefully eventually ART but I'm growing tired of looking into the future with these processors. It seems like with those line arrays you would always be better off with more channels so 1 long array can become 2 or more waveforms. One question I have is would you want to calibrate all these different subwoofer groups to your mlp or would it make more sense to calibrate them to collide at strategic points in the room? Like do you place your mic for the minidsp calibration at 1/4 or half room distances and then dlbc at your mlp etc.. And for the very nearfield are you using a vibration sensor for calibration and then correcting the map spl with the rest? I've just time aligned them for the MLP which is the middle seat in the second row which is theater style seats. Each seat has a 12" sub in a sealed enclosure immediately behind it. I also have six 12" subs built into the platform that those theater chairs are on. The 12" subs are firing upwards (two below each seat). I have a bicycle tire around each pair with a plywood sheet over the drivers so they have a pistonic effect. The mini woofers under the front row are setup similarly. 6 are downfiring to create the pistonic effect and 6 are upfiring for nearfield effect. I already had the drivers from a different project so this was just making use of something I already had, but it actually worked quite well! The four 18" drivers in the infinite baffle at the front of the theater dig really low (and effortlessly) while the 2 sealed 18' MBMs provide midbass energy the IB subs lack. I use the MiniDSP 2x4HD to time align everything and set the appropriate hi and low pass crossovers for each group of subs so they only work at select frequencies. I also have a Raspberry Pi wired to the MiniDSP so I can apply exBEQ filters from my phone. With my subwoofer system setup this way the RMS-1 only sees one sub. Lastly I use DIRAC to set the house curve and EQ for room nodes. This setup allows low frequency output and tactile sensation to be significant yet sound/feel realistic. I'm wondering and very curious how DLBM will work with this. I'll need to get the 4 sub expansion module which should work great since I have 5 groups of subs. If I want to keep ezBEQ (which I do), I'll still need a 5 channel in and 5 channel out MiniDSP unit to apply those filters to each of the 5 sub channels. That'll be the only way to apply those filters while keeping each channel independent WRT DLBM. We shall see. At the very least it'll be a fun project 😁. That's an awesome set up! Do you find yourself having to adjust the platform intensity on the fly due to material? Like Fury would pull you in to the immersion but something else might draw you out? I have both my front row and rear row on a platform with isolation pads spread out so it allows decoupling but the movement would be nothing like your setup. I plan on keeping my 88 minidsp for BEQ as well. Question is how many other tasks it may need to do. |
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Lsc
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 3,435
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Post by Lsc on Oct 12, 2024 15:11:26 GMT -5
Holy crap^ you guys are next level!
That’s some serious home theater stuff. Hopefully the RMC1+ will serve you guys well.
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Post by jagman on Oct 12, 2024 15:22:18 GMT -5
I've just time aligned them for the MLP which is the middle seat in the second row which is theater style seats. Each seat has a 12" sub in a sealed enclosure immediately behind it. I also have six 12" subs built into the platform that those theater chairs are on. The 12" subs are firing upwards (two below each seat). I have a bicycle tire around each pair with a plywood sheet over the drivers so they have a pistonic effect. The mini woofers under the front row are setup similarly. 6 are downfiring to create the pistonic effect and 6 are upfiring for nearfield effect. I already had the drivers from a different project so this was just making use of something I already had, but it actually worked quite well! The four 18" drivers in the infinite baffle at the front of the theater dig really low (and effortlessly) while the 2 sealed 18' MBMs provide midbass energy the IB subs lack. I use the MiniDSP 2x4HD to time align everything and set the appropriate hi and low pass crossovers for each group of subs so they only work at select frequencies. I also have a Raspberry Pi wired to the MiniDSP so I can apply exBEQ filters from my phone. With my subwoofer system setup this way the RMS-1 only sees one sub. Lastly I use DIRAC to set the house curve and EQ for room nodes. This setup allows low frequency output and tactile sensation to be significant yet sound/feel realistic. I'm wondering and very curious how DLBM will work with this. I'll need to get the 4 sub expansion module which should work great since I have 5 groups of subs. If I want to keep ezBEQ (which I do), I'll still need a 5 channel in and 5 channel out MiniDSP unit to apply those filters to each of the 5 sub channels. That'll be the only way to apply those filters while keeping each channel independent WRT DLBM. We shall see. At the very least it'll be a fun project 😁. That's an awesome set up! Do you find yourself having to adjust the platform intensity on the fly due to material? Like Fury would pull you in to the immersion but something else might draw you out? I have both my front row and rear row on a platform with isolation pads spread out so it allows decoupling but the movement would be nothing like your setup. I plan on keeping my 88 minidsp for BEQ as well. Question is how many other tasks it may need to do. It's largely set and leave it except for using ezBEQ. I suspect I'll end up getting a MiniDSP Flex HTx which as you know is basically the newer version of your MiniDSP device. If DLBC is doing its thing then the only thing we'll use our MiniDSP devices for is ezBEQ. I do love the idea of everything in the chain being balanced. The only problem I see is the Flex HTx doesn't work with ezBEQ as well as the 2x4HD. Either way I really want to see what DLBC can do. |
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kcdc
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 7
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Post by kcdc on Oct 12, 2024 15:42:10 GMT -5
I am curious if the digital outputs could be implemented into a surround system on the RMC-1+ upgrade. I understand they're capable of doing a stereo config that's separate of the multichannel setup on my current RMC-1, but due to limitations, they're not usable as LR channels for an atmos or dts setup. I ask because I run my front stage on active loudspeakers using hypex fusion amps, the amps have a weak adc and prefer a digital input (spdif or toslink). I was able to get the toslink to work for the center channel in my atmos setup, but it was problematic and not a stable connection. I doubt it was meant to be used that way. That question keeps coming up, there are a few issues, most importantly, how would you sync the volume? On the fusions amps, I keep them at 0dB, let the front end handle the rest. I understand the question comes up a lot, makes sense since it would appear visually that it would be an option on this system.And if it keeps coming up, wouldn't that make it more of a viable option? Sounds like more are venturing into the active xo realm. Maybe for a more future model. I do try to keep my questions minimal, didn't mean to rehash.
For now, I take the analog xlr to a motu ultralite mk5 I had for my previous studio. Now it handles the conversion for LRC as well as the earthworks mic for calibrations. I did precal of theLRC loudspeakers with Smaart and FIR Designer through that setup to help mitigate any issues. Dirac does a good job of integration, sounds great, was just curious if I'd be able to take that out of the equation with the + upgrade and sell that unit. No worries, I understand it would be an undertaking, just wanted to know. It would also make the unit a much lower priced contender to the $10k+ digital-out models currently available (Storm, AudioControl). Most only want it for front stage, not surround. I speculate that last part selfishly.
Edited for more info
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Post by tchaik on Oct 12, 2024 16:24:14 GMT -5
well, I just watched the most recent podcast or whatever it is called. I definitely am going to trade my RMC-1L for the new RMC-1+. since I have the room for the larger box in my cabinet I can take the RMC-1+. I like the fact that they are including two expansion bay items. I assume already installed. for an xtra 2 grand I get a brand new unit, 5 year Warranty, 8K and many considerable improvements and upgrades. personally I think that is a very reasonable price to pay considering all that comes with it. some may differ, but so be it.
tchaik...........
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Post by amaheshw on Oct 12, 2024 23:03:49 GMT -5
Shifting gears from the past 15 pages of discussion about 8 subs and pricing, how do DTS:X Pro and Enhanced Atmos work? I have only a 7.2.4 setup -- will I hear any difference? My previous understanding was that the new codecs would upmix more content to the height speakers, but now I keep reading that the only benefit is to front wides and going beyond 11 channels.
Who is right?
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ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
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Post by ttocs on Oct 12, 2024 23:35:58 GMT -5
. . . . how do DTS:X Pro and Enhanced Atmos work? I have only a 7.2.4 setup -- will I hear any difference? My previous understanding was that the new codecs would upmix more content to the height speakers, but now I keep reading that the only benefit is to front wides and going beyond 11 channels. Who is right? Well, dtsX is only up to 11.1, and dtsX Pro is up to 30.2. You've got 11.1 already, 7+4=11 and the LFE channel. So, will dtsX Pro provide a different sound? I don't know, but it may depend on how the show is mixed. Here is a pretty good explanation centering on dtsX and dtsX Pro. Auro is mentioned, and some 7.2.6 layouts are also talked about, and, some differences vs ATMOS. Philip does a really good job of presenting these concepts in an easy to digest way. |
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Post by PaulBe on Oct 13, 2024 8:06:17 GMT -5
. . . . how do DTS:X Pro and Enhanced Atmos work? I have only a 7.2.4 setup -- will I hear any difference? My previous understanding was that the new codecs would upmix more content to the height speakers, but now I keep reading that the only benefit is to front wides and going beyond 11 channels. Who is right? Well, dtsX is only up to 11.1, and dtsX Pro is up to 30.2. You've got 11.1 already, 7+4=11 and the LFE channel. So, will dtsX Pro provide a different sound? I don't know, but it may depend on how the show is mixed. Here is a pretty good explanation centering on dtsX and dtsX Pro. Auro is mentioned, and some 7.2.6 layouts are also talked about, and, some differences vs ATMOS. Philip does a really good job of presenting these concepts in an easy to digest way. This is an excellent video. Philip is a very good teacher. I like how he differentiates between channels, objects, and speakers/positions. From post one in ‘Official Emofest Notes by KlineMJ’ – emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/1130267/threadLonnie klinemj Regardless how many positions dtsX Pro(30.2) or Dolby ATMOS(24.1.10) will handle, The RMC-1+ will eventually handle 19.5 positions. Both the XMC-2+ and RMC-1+ currently handle 15.1 positions. A few questions that won’t be answered till we know what Emotiva is actually going to produce with the output expansion modules: What switching position ability – as Philip describes for the Denon receiver - will the RMC-1+ eventually have to handle different formats? Will any normal/average processor user add additional speakers to accommodate this option if Emotiva includes this ability? Adding this ability reduces available position count. Will the eventual .5 Sub abilities actually handle the .2 dtsX Pro LFE? How will this affect current thought and advice about general bass management, and multi-Sub physical positions? What IS .2 LFE in dtsX Pro? * IMO - The position requirements for different formats is a cluster. A simple example is 5.1 sources are not compatible with 7.1 speaker configurations; especially with music. And, since the industry can't or won't fix the fundamentals, they just throw more speakers and formats into the mix. The industry continues to create more problems than real solutions for home users. Confusion is a feature, not a flaw. |
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Post by amaheshw on Oct 13, 2024 9:12:52 GMT -5
Thanks ttocs and Paul. Will DTS:X Pro or Enhanced Atmos upmix more content to the height speakers, compared to existing DTS:X and Atmos, in an 11.x setup (specifically my 7.2.4)? I am not interested in expansion, just trying to learn whether the new codecs will send more content to my heights.
Thanks gentlemen!
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