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Post by fbczar on Aug 14, 2024 9:26:28 GMT -5
I've got answer from EMO concerning Apple TV digital noise while using VRO mode. This is first time I receive "Solution" for this problem, however, it is impossible to 100% prevent this error. It said because of Apple's specific PCM "signature" makes processor lost clock. Maybe Roku also have similar PCM "signature" then...? This is what I've got from EMO: Unfortunately, Apple has a specific PCM "signature," and the DSP will sometimes miss the clock, resulting in robotic digital noise.
Here are some steps to follow:
1a.) Back out of the current show you are viewing and start up another one (preferably an ATOMS show). You can also navigate the home menu until you hear the navigation bips in the speakers then start the show again. (1b. OR set the output of the Apple TV to Dolby Digital; you will lose ATOMS with this setting. This is probably not preferable)
2.) Powering on and powering off technique works also
3.) If the processor is on and you are viewing content, you can change the sound field mode to another and back, and it will correct.
Unfortunately, that is the only fix at the moment. I am hopeful the new revamp code will fix this issue.
Thanks for this answer, EMO, however, in my case, only effective solution is, No.2, power cycle. Change sound fields, change sound mode from ATMOS to Dolby Digital does nothing with this error. I did it already couple times without any success. This error is start when RMC is wake up from standby mode, but not always. I can't pinpoint exactly in what cases this problem starts. Unfortunately, it could not be fixed by final firmware unless final firmware uses completely re-programmed amps and DSP codes.... Probably I will have this error until my RMC is gone.... I will ask it again to EMO and if there is any positive news about last firmware, I will post it here again. The most consistent and easiest fix for my XMC-2 is toggling HDMI inputs on the remote control. That is, from HDMI 1 to HDMI 2 and then back to HDMI1. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 14, 2024 10:18:35 GMT -5
… And, when I turned off VRO, this error never comes up. But I must use VRO.... This continues to be a key distinction between systems that run mostly without issue, and those that have ‘irregularities’. It’s not surprising, as those using LPS are shutting their ‘computers’ down every night, and rebooting the next day; whereas those using VRO leave their computers on for long periods, which allows instabilities to creep in over time. This isn't pointed at Stephen, but to all of those who want or need to use VRO for whatever reason, and also to those who post problems they are having — one of the most useful pieces of information you can include about your system, is which Standby mode you are using. |
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Post by PaulBe on Aug 14, 2024 10:26:45 GMT -5
… And, when I turned off VRO, this error never comes up. But I must use VRO.... This continues to be a key distinction between systems that run mostly without issue, and those that have ‘irregularities’. It’s not surprising, as those using LPS are shutting their ‘computers’ down every night, and rebooting the next day; whereas those using VRO leave their computers on for long periods, which allows instabilities to creep in over time. This isn't pointed at Stephen, but to all of those who want or need to use VRO for whatever reason, and also to those who post problems they are having — one of the most useful pieces of information you can include about your system, is which Standby mode you are using. I used VRO for only about 1 week over the last 5 years. IIRC THAT Week was about 4 years ago. I always use LPS. My RMC-1L instabilities come and go at random intervals in random ways. Anecdotally, I find 'Surround' to be a more unstable Mode. I use Direct or Auto - It's also what I usually - first - toggle between to try to clear instabilities. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 14, 2024 14:59:07 GMT -5
Something VRO standby users might consider, I’d put it in the category of preventive maintenance, or ‘an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure’. I have a routine I call ‘reboot Sunday’, where I close all of the apps on all of my iDevices, shut them down, and restart them. It takes about a minute for each device, and seems to keep them running smoothly (though it could just be a placebo).
Since it’s possible that the longer your G3P is in VRO without a complete shutdown, the more prone it is to random quirks, maybe a regular complete shutdown and restart back to VRO, would reduce these issues. Now of course it wouldn’t have to be on Sunday, but some kind of schedule might be good, weekly, monthly, the morning before a ‘big movie night with friends and/or family’, even daily if you were inclined. The keys being, you do it at a time convenient for you, so that you or your family don’t have to deal with it when it’s not convenient, and you always leave the system ready for its next use.
Those who use VRO may have better suggestions, but the less graceful shutdown possibilities I see are:
* Turn the G3P off, then hold the power button for 6 seconds, optionally shut off the rear switch 1 minute, then back on
* Just shut off the rear switch for 1 minute, and back on
* Get a smart plug to plug the G3P into, and use an App to remove power for 1 minute
Maybe with some PM you can overcome the potential quirks of VRO.
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Lsc
Emo VIPs 
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Post by Lsc on Aug 14, 2024 15:56:27 GMT -5
… And, when I turned off VRO, this error never comes up. But I must use VRO.... This continues to be a key distinction between systems that run mostly without issue, and those that have ‘irregularities’. It’s not surprising, as those using LPS are shutting their ‘computers’ down every night, and rebooting the next day; whereas those using VRO leave their computers on for long periods, which allows instabilities to creep in over time. This isn't pointed at Stephen, but to all of those who want or need to use VRO for whatever reason, and also to those who post problems they are having — one of the most useful pieces of information you can include about your system, is which Standby mode you are using. I only use VRO and never would try to use LPS. If LPS was the only option, I’d get a processor. It’s very stable 1 going on 6 years now (wow time flies). |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 14, 2024 16:07:29 GMT -5
This continues to be a key distinction between systems that run mostly without issue, and those that have ‘irregularities’. It’s not surprising, as those using LPS are shutting their ‘computers’ down every night, and rebooting the next day; whereas those using VRO leave their computers on for long periods, which allows instabilities to creep in over time. This isn't pointed at Stephen, but to all of those who want or need to use VRO for whatever reason, and also to those who post problems they are having — one of the most useful pieces of information you can include about your system, is which Standby mode you are using. I only use VRO and never would try to use LPS. If LPS was the only option, I’d get a processor. It’s very stable 1 going on 6 years now (wow time flies). Yes, others have said that as well, but I would venture, more people have problems that would be solved by LPS, or more frequent restarts, than not. |
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Post by Stephen Park on Aug 14, 2024 21:33:19 GMT -5
Something VRO standby users might consider, I’d put it in the category of preventive maintenance, or ‘an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure’. I have a routine I call ‘reboot Sunday’, where I close all of the apps on all of my iDevices, shut them down, and restart them. It takes about a minute for each device, and seems to keep them running smoothly (though it could just be a placebo). Since it’s possible that the longer your G3P is in VRO without a complete shutdown, the more prone it is to random quirks, maybe a regular complete shutdown and restart back to VRO, would reduce these issues. Now of course it wouldn’t have to be on Sunday, but some kind of schedule might be good, weekly, monthly, the morning before a ‘big movie night with friends and/or family’, even daily if you were inclined. The keys being, you do it at a time convenient for you, so that you or your family don’t have to deal with it when it’s not convenient, and you always leave the system ready for its next use. Those who use VRO may have better suggestions, but the less graceful shutdown possibilities I see are: * Turn the G3P off, then hold the power button for 6 seconds, optionally shut off the rear switch 1 minute, then back on * Just shut off the rear switch for 1 minute, and back on * Get a smart plug to plug the G3P into, and use an App to remove power for 1 minute Maybe with some PM you can overcome the potential quirks of VRO. That is good way to prevent problem indeed. Why I did not think about it? Perhaps I am lazy. Your suggestion is very handy, especially smart plug! However, when power is down and on again by whatever method, RMC is boot up - then it's OLED screen remains on. Not all info is showing but only last selected source (HDMI1) and couple more. It will not off until I turn on my RMC and turn off again. That is another glitch, so I must do care about it when reboot my RMC-1L. Waiting for "Emotiva" sign and progress bar moving is painful  I really want (all of us wants as well) just rock stable processor. Problems (easy fix one) comes every once in a year will be great... Is it impossible dream? |
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Post by Stephen Park on Aug 17, 2024 22:40:26 GMT -5
One quick question…
USB stream input which located at rear panel of my RMC-1L, is it capable of handle DSP or DoP signal?
Original manual said it is not supported currently, but will be in the future.
Is it already implemented? If so, is it also capable of handle multi-channel(5.1) DSD signal?
EDIT******
I’ve just tested, result is:
USB Stream can’t digest DSD nor DoP yet. Only I can hear is noises.
And, this USB Audio 2.0(is it means channel? I believe it is version) only capable of stereo. Not multichannel.
According to manual, HDMI input can handle DoP but all I can hear is also noise.
So I have to convert DSD to PCM.
RMC can handle pure DSD signal because I can play Pure DSD by OPPO via HDMI.
But Roon has no pure DSD option, it only can use DoP or converted PCM…
My Question is…
RMC can play DoP through HDMI? Manual said yes, but I can’t. Anybody use DoP?
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Post by tngiloy on Aug 18, 2024 7:00:50 GMT -5
One quick question… USB stream input which located at rear panel of my RMC-1L, is it capable of handle DSP or DoP signal? Original manual said it is not supported currently, but will be in the future. Is it already implemented? If so, is it also capable of handle multi-channel(5.1) DSD signal? EDIT****** I’ve just tested, result is: USB Stream can’t digest DSD nor DoP yet. Only I can hear is noises. And, this USB Audio 2.0(is it means channel? I believe it is version) only capable of stereo. Not multichannel. According to manual, HDMI input can handle DoP but all I can hear is also noise. So I have to convert DSD to PCM. RMC can handle pure DSD signal because I can play Pure DSD by OPPO via HDMI. But Roon has no pure DSD option, it only can use DoP or converted PCM… My Question is… RMC can play DoP through HDMI? Manual said yes, but I can’t. Anybody use DoP? Altthough originally promised, DSD -either native or DoP- can NOT be sent thru the USB stream input. PCM will work. Emotva said it was a hardware shortcoming IIRC. I have tested DSD via hdmi from my Roon Nucleus and it works in 2CH and M-CH just as you found. I will look later to see if native or DoP options are available. I set the Nucleus to convert to pcm so that I can use Dirac and bass management. I'll test DoP later today and let you know. |
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Post by tngiloy on Aug 18, 2024 11:25:06 GMT -5
Update-
I get the same results as you.
Like you I can get DSD over HDMI from my Oppo along with PCM. The Oppo does not offer DoP option.
My Room Nucleus offers both DSD/DoP and PCM, (but not native DSD) on its HDMI connection to the RMC-1L. I do NOT get any sound when set to DSD/DoP*, but it works correctly when set to PCM.
I tried turning on the TV (which sometimes seems to fix connection) and an RMC-1L rear panel power cycle, and a power cycle of the Nucleus. Still only works with PCM and not for DSD/DoP.
I don't know if this is a Roon bug or Emotiva's. I can play native DSD from the Nucleus over USB to an Audio Matrix X-SPDIF3 (used as DDC USB>i2S) to Audio GD DAC' i2S input, and then out via XLR to RMC-1L.
The Nucleus to Matrix Audio connection offers native, DoP and PCM. If I change the Nucleus settings for the Matrix Audio from native to DoP I get no sound (static). PCM does work.
I would guess this is a Roon bug, but I'm not smart enough to know for sure.
Hope this helps.
*If I put my ear to the speaker there is a slight static that increases with volume increase, but not audible from normal listening distance and volume.
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Post by Stephen Park on Aug 19, 2024 23:38:32 GMT -5
Update- I get the same results as you. Like you I can get DSD over HDMI from my Oppo along with PCM. The Oppo does not offer DoP option. My Room Nucleus offers both DSD/DoP and PCM, (but not native DSD) on its HDMI connection to the RMC-1L. I do NOT get any sound when set to DSD/DoP*, but it works correctly when set to PCM. I tried turning on the TV (which sometimes seems to fix connection) and an RMC-1L rear panel power cycle, and a power cycle of the Nucleus. Still only works with PCM and not for DSD/DoP. I don't know if this is a Roon bug or Emotiva's. I can play native DSD from the Nucleus over USB to an Audio Matrix X-SPDIF3 (used as DDC USB>i2S) to Audio GD DAC' i2S input, and then out via XLR to RMC-1L. The Nucleus to Matrix Audio connection offers native, DoP and PCM. If I change the Nucleus settings for the Matrix Audio from native to DoP I get no sound (static). PCM does work. I would guess this is a Roon bug, but I'm not smart enough to know for sure. Hope this helps. *If I put my ear to the speaker there is a slight static that increases with volume increase, but not audible from normal listening distance and volume. Ok, I also connect my USB from Roon Server to my M-Scaler with DoP, no sound, Native DSD works though. I think it is Roon bug. I will report it to Roon and see what answer will be. Thanks for your reply. ** I haven't check whether any static is present or not. I will check about it with my RMC, let post it's result today or tomorrow. |
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Post by tngiloy on Aug 20, 2024 11:13:55 GMT -5
steven Park I did some further testing today. I remembered that I have a Topping headphone amp also connected to the Roon Nucleus by USB. I went into its settings in Roon and it had the choices of either native DSD or DSD/DoP. Playing a dsf file it worked for both native DSD and DSD/DoP. Which got me thinking about why it didn't work to the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3, and then remembered it had a setting through its dip switches that sets it either to 'pure' native DSD or DSD/DoP. Once the dip-switch was changed to allow DSD/DoP it worked fine. Also a USB connection So my conclusion that it was a Roon bug is wrong. But it's not an Emotiva bug either. This is from the RMC-1L manual- "True DSD Playback:
The RMC-1 offers audiophile quality playback of DSD audio (when received via HDMI from an
SACD or a DSD audio file). DSD audio is routed directly to the DACs in the RMC-1, and bypasses
all format conversions and other processing, for the most accurate audio rendition possible.
The RMC-1 also supports playback of DSD audio content via its USB Stream Input using the DoP
(DSD-over-PCM) standard. (This feature is still in the final stages of development and will be
available shortly.)"They have come out on this thread somewhere and admitted that the USB stream handling of DSD over DoP is not workable and have publicly punted on that. Emotiva should change that in their manual, especially if they plan to sell refurbished trade-ins once the 'plus' series is released. But over HDMI Emotiva only claims to handle 'True DSD' which I take to mean 'native DSD'. ROON doesn't recognize my RMC-1L explicitly the same way it does recognize the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3. The only choice for the Emo is DSD over DoP, which doesn't work. So it seems the problem is shared between Roon and Emotiva. Emotiva needs to contact Roon and let them know its processors' HDMI capabilities so that they will be put into its manufacturers data base. Pretty sure neither of us can do that. Sorry if I misled you. Edit- The Topping and Matrix Audio are only connected by USB to the Nucleus. USB seems to have a two-way communication which correctly recognizes its capabilities. I thought HDMI also had this two-way communication, but it doesn't seem to recognize the Emo's DSD capabilities. OPPO is a ROON certified product so maybe that's why its HDMI capabilities are recognized correctly. Maybe.
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Aug 20, 2024 11:37:03 GMT -5
There's one little technical detail that I need to bring up here... DSD/DoP is "encapsulated DSD over PCM" - usually over USB. The actual content is real DSD that has been split up into packets to be sent over USB. Once those packets are received, de-encapsulated, and reassembled, the result is an exact copy of the original DSD. "native DSD" is actually very much the same thing (and the name is sort of a marketing gimmick). It is really just a slight variation on DoP. The DSD stream is still split up into packets, encapsulated, de-encapsulated, and reassembled into the original DSD at the other end. The only real difference between "DoP" and "native DSD" is that the latter uses the space in the packets slightly more efficiently. So, for a given bandwidth, you can transfer more data... So, for example, a USB connection that can support "DoPx4" can support "native DSDx8" (assuming that the other hardware and drivers support it). Other than that it is no more "pure DSD" or any less "packetized" than plain old DoP. HOWEVER more device support DoP than support the "native DSD" variant. steven Park I did some further testing today. I remembered that I have a Topping headphone amp also connected to the Roon Nucleus by USB. I went into its settings in Roon and it had the choices of either native DSD or DSD/DoP. Playing a dsf file it worked for both native DSD and DSD/DoP. Which got me thinking about why it didn't work to the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3, and then remembered it had a setting through its dip switches that sets it either to 'pure' native DSD or DSD/DoP. Once the dip-switch was changed to allow DSD/DoP it worked fine. Also a USB connection So my conclusion that it was a Roon bug is wrong. But it's not an Emotiva bug either. This is from the RMC-1L manual- "True DSD Playback:
The RMC-1 offers audiophile quality playback of DSD audio (when received via HDMI from an
SACD or a DSD audio file). DSD audio is routed directly to the DACs in the RMC-1, and bypasses
all format conversions and other processing, for the most accurate audio rendition possible.
The RMC-1 also supports playback of DSD audio content via its USB Stream Input using the DoP
(DSD-over-PCM) standard. (This feature is still in the final stages of development and will be
available shortly.)"They have come out on this thread somewhere and admitted that the USB stream handling of DSD over DoP is not workable and have publicly punted on that. Emotiva should change that in their manual, especially if they plan to sell refurbished trade-ins once the 'plus' series is released. But over HDMI Emotiva only claims to handle 'True DSD' which I take to mean 'native DSD'. ROON doesn't recognize my RMC-1L explicitly the same way it does recognize the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3. The only choice for the Emo is DSD over DoP, which doesn't work. So it seems the problem is shared between Roon and Emotiva. Emotiva needs to contact Roon and let them know its processors' HDMI capabilities so that they will be put into its manufacturers data base. Pretty sure neither of us can do that. Sorry if I misled you. Edit- The Topping and Matrix Audio are only connected by USB to the Nucleus. USB seems to have a two-way communication which correctly recognizes its capabilities. I thought HDMI also had this two-way communication, but it doesn't seem to recognize the Emo's DSD capabilities. OPPO is a ROON certified product so maybe that's why its HDMI capabilities are recognized correctly. Maybe. |
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Post by marcl on Aug 20, 2024 11:46:48 GMT -5
There's one little technical detail that I need to bring up here... DSD/DoP is "encapsulated DSD over PCM" - usually over USB. The actual content is real DSD that has been split up into packets to be sent over USB. Once those packets are received, de-encapsulated, and reassembled, the result is an exact copy of the original DSD. "native DSD" is actually very much the same thing (and the name is sort of a marketing gimmick). It is really just a slight variation on DoP. The DSD stream is still split up into packets, encapsulated, de-encapsulated, and reassembled into the original DSD at the other end. The only real difference between "DoP" and "native DSD" is that the latter uses the space in the packets slightly more efficiently. So, for a given bandwidth, you can transfer more data... So, for example, a USB connection that can support "DoPx4" can support "native DSDx8" (assuming that the other hardware and drivers support it). Other than that it is no more "pure DSD" or any less "packetized" than plain old DoP. HOWEVER more device support DoP than support the "native DSD" variant. steven Park I did some further testing today. I remembered that I have a Topping headphone amp also connected to the Roon Nucleus by USB. I went into its settings in Roon and it had the choices of either native DSD or DSD/DoP. Playing a dsf file it worked for both native DSD and DSD/DoP. Which got me thinking about why it didn't work to the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3, and then remembered it had a setting through its dip switches that sets it either to 'pure' native DSD or DSD/DoP. Once the dip-switch was changed to allow DSD/DoP it worked fine. Also a USB connection So my conclusion that it was a Roon bug is wrong. But it's not an Emotiva bug either. This is from the RMC-1L manual- "True DSD Playback:
The RMC-1 offers audiophile quality playback of DSD audio (when received via HDMI from an
SACD or a DSD audio file). DSD audio is routed directly to the DACs in the RMC-1, and bypasses
all format conversions and other processing, for the most accurate audio rendition possible.
The RMC-1 also supports playback of DSD audio content via its USB Stream Input using the DoP
(DSD-over-PCM) standard. (This feature is still in the final stages of development and will be
available shortly.)"They have come out on this thread somewhere and admitted that the USB stream handling of DSD over DoP is not workable and have publicly punted on that. Emotiva should change that in their manual, especially if they plan to sell refurbished trade-ins once the 'plus' series is released. But over HDMI Emotiva only claims to handle 'True DSD' which I take to mean 'native DSD'. ROON doesn't recognize my RMC-1L explicitly the same way it does recognize the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3. The only choice for the Emo is DSD over DoP, which doesn't work. So it seems the problem is shared between Roon and Emotiva. Emotiva needs to contact Roon and let them know its processors' HDMI capabilities so that they will be put into its manufacturers data base. Pretty sure neither of us can do that. Sorry if I misled you. Edit- The Topping and Matrix Audio are only connected by USB to the Nucleus. USB seems to have a two-way communication which correctly recognizes its capabilities. I thought HDMI also had this two-way communication, but it doesn't seem to recognize the Emo's DSD capabilities. OPPO is a ROON certified product so maybe that's why its HDMI capabilities are recognized correctly. Maybe. Does "encapulated DSD over PCM" mean that it's converted to PCM, squirted over USB, then converted back from PCM to DSD? |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Aug 20, 2024 11:55:01 GMT -5
I just wanted to clarify something here... When you set an Oppo, or presumably any player that supports the option, to "DSD over HDMI"... (This is something that I would expect any "universal player" that has an HDMI output to support.) You are actually sending DSD data over an HDMI connection... And our processors support this... DoP is specifically a method whereby a DSD audio stream can be "packetized, encapsulated, and sent over PCM data packets". DoP is almost always used with USB, and very occasionally with Coax or Optical, but I've never heard of its being used with HDMI. And "native DSD/DoP over USB" is just a variant of DoP - so also packetized and encapsulated - and only really ever used via USB. Both of these must be supported by both the sending and receiving devices and any drivers that may be required. Our XDA-3 DAC supports both DoP via USB and "native DSD over USB" (up to DSDx4 and DSDx8 respectively). Our RMC-1 and XMC-2 processors do not. (We originally intended to add this to our RMC-1 and XMC-2 but that turned out to be somewhat problematic with our processor architecture.) Update- I get the same results as you. Like you I can get DSD over HDMI from my Oppo along with PCM. The Oppo does not offer DoP option. My Room Nucleus offers both DSD/DoP and PCM, (but not native DSD) on its HDMI connection to the RMC-1L. I do NOT get any sound when set to DSD/DoP*, but it works correctly when set to PCM. I tried turning on the TV (which sometimes seems to fix connection) and an RMC-1L rear panel power cycle, and a power cycle of the Nucleus. Still only works with PCM and not for DSD/DoP. I don't know if this is a Roon bug or Emotiva's. I can play native DSD from the Nucleus over USB to an Audio Matrix X-SPDIF3 (used as DDC USB>i2S) to Audio GD DAC' i2S input, and then out via XLR to RMC-1L. The Nucleus to Matrix Audio connection offers native, DoP and PCM. If I change the Nucleus settings for the Matrix Audio from native to DoP I get no sound (static). PCM does work. I would guess this is a Roon bug, but I'm not smart enough to know for sure. Hope this helps. *If I put my ear to the speaker there is a slight static that increases with volume increase, but not audible from normal listening distance and volume. |
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Post by tngiloy on Aug 20, 2024 13:18:27 GMT -5
I just wanted to clarify something here... When you set an Oppo, or presumably any player that supports the option, to "DSD over HDMI"... (This is something that I would expect any "universal player" that has an HDMI output to support.) You are actually sending DSD data over an HDMI connection...
And our processors support this...
Someone at Emotiva needs to convey this to ROON and/or have Emotiva recognized as a 'ROON Ready product'. The 'ready' certification is lengthy, but perhaps Emo could contact Roon and have them add 'Native' (and remove DSD over DoP) to its DSD options when connected to your processors. Right now the choices are 'PCM', 'DSD over PCM v1(DoP)' and 'Initial dCS method'. It appears that the edid info is not correct on one end or the other of the HDMI connection.
DoP is specifically a method whereby a DSD audio stream can be "packetized, encapsulated, and sent over PCM data packets". DoP is almost always used with USB, and very occasionally with Coax or Optical, but I've never heard of its being used with HDMI. And " native DSD/DoP over USB" is just a variant of DoP - so also packetized and encapsulated - and only really ever used via USB. Both of these must be supported by both the sending and receiving devices and any drivers that may be required. I'm concerned with HDMI, not USB. The Nucleus offers both USB and HDMI. I was talking with Steven specifically about HDMI and what I thought your manual stated- although it could be stated more clearly- that only 'pure DSD' is available over HDMI.Our XDA-3 DAC supports both DoP via USB and "native DSD over USB" (up to DSDx4 and DSDx8 respectively). Our RMC-1 and XMC-2 processors do not. (We originally intended to add this to our RMC-1 and XMC-2 but that turned out to be somewhat problematic with our processor architecture. |
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Post by Stephen Park on Aug 20, 2024 20:03:59 GMT -5
steven Park I did some further testing today. I remembered that I have a Topping headphone amp also connected to the Roon Nucleus by USB. I went into its settings in Roon and it had the choices of either native DSD or DSD/DoP. Playing a dsf file it worked for both native DSD and DSD/DoP. Which got me thinking about why it didn't work to the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3, and then remembered it had a setting through its dip switches that sets it either to 'pure' native DSD or DSD/DoP. Once the dip-switch was changed to allow DSD/DoP it worked fine. Also a USB connection So my conclusion that it was a Roon bug is wrong. But it's not an Emotiva bug either. This is from the RMC-1L manual- "True DSD Playback:
The RMC-1 offers audiophile quality playback of DSD audio (when received via HDMI from an
SACD or a DSD audio file). DSD audio is routed directly to the DACs in the RMC-1, and bypasses
all format conversions and other processing, for the most accurate audio rendition possible.
The RMC-1 also supports playback of DSD audio content via its USB Stream Input using the DoP
(DSD-over-PCM) standard. (This feature is still in the final stages of development and will be
available shortly.)"They have come out on this thread somewhere and admitted that the USB stream handling of DSD over DoP is not workable and have publicly punted on that. Emotiva should change that in their manual, especially if they plan to sell refurbished trade-ins once the 'plus' series is released. But over HDMI Emotiva only claims to handle 'True DSD' which I take to mean 'native DSD'. ROON doesn't recognize my RMC-1L explicitly the same way it does recognize the Matrix Audio X-SPDIF3. The only choice for the Emo is DSD over DoP, which doesn't work. So it seems the problem is shared between Roon and Emotiva. Emotiva needs to contact Roon and let them know its processors' HDMI capabilities so that they will be put into its manufacturers data base. Pretty sure neither of us can do that. Sorry if I misled you. Edit- The Topping and Matrix Audio are only connected by USB to the Nucleus. USB seems to have a two-way communication which correctly recognizes its capabilities. I thought HDMI also had this two-way communication, but it doesn't seem to recognize the Emo's DSD capabilities. OPPO is a ROON certified product so maybe that's why its HDMI capabilities are recognized correctly. Maybe. tngiloy, thanks for your result of testing. According to manual and what Keith said, RMC-1 is not support DoP over HDMI. So I was asking Roon Support, and their answer was: " DSD DoP via HDMI is not a standard. There may not be a component in the world that supports it. HDMI DSD is either native or converted to PCM." So I asked again that then why Roon has no option shows native DSD if active device is connected via HDMI? Another answer was: " Thanks for writing in to ask about this. I can tell you that Roon is functioning the way it is designed to in this case. If you wish you can submit a Feature Suggestions if it receives enough upvotes from the rest of the community it will be considered." Ok, Roon does not support Native DSD over HDMI, and it is their design. I can ask Feature Suggestions, though I don't think it will be upvoted. Meanwhile, I only can use mConnect app to play 2-Channel DSD file or Multi-Channel DSD file through OPPO. It is only option that I can play Multi-Channel DSD with RMC-1. I want use just single app (Roon), but it is impossible at this moment.... OPPO is truly universal player, nothing is compete it's function and feature yet, even it is discontinued couple years ago... I need to purchase another second-hand OPPO 203 in case mine has end of life... Still there have question yet, if there is no device support DoP over HDMI, then why Roon show its option...? Maybe you are right that RMC-1 is not Roon certified, so they do not show correct option...! So I set it as Onkyo TX-RZ70 which is Roon certified device and also support native DSD over HDMI(I've test it with my friend), but still there is no native DSD option... weird. Sorry for all that I mentioning Roon on this Forum...!  |
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Post by markc on Aug 21, 2024 11:12:03 GMT -5
There's one little technical detail that I need to bring up here... DSD/DoP is "encapsulated DSD over PCM" - usually over USB. The actual content is real DSD that has been split up into packets to be sent over USB. Once those packets are received, de-encapsulated, and reassembled, the result is an exact copy of the original DSD. "native DSD" is actually very much the same thing (and the name is sort of a marketing gimmick). It is really just a slight variation on DoP. The DSD stream is still split up into packets, encapsulated, de-encapsulated, and reassembled into the original DSD at the other end. The only real difference between "DoP" and "native DSD" is that the latter uses the space in the packets slightly more efficiently. So, for a given bandwidth, you can transfer more data... So, for example, a USB connection that can support "DoPx4" can support "native DSDx8" (assuming that the other hardware and drivers support it). Other than that it is no more "pure DSD" or any less "packetized" than plain old DoP. HOWEVER more device support DoP than support the "native DSD" variant. Does "encapulated DSD over PCM" mean that it's converted to PCM, squirted over USB, then converted back from PCM to DSD? No. For DOP, the 1-bit DSD datastream is embedded in a PCM sound carrier and DSD retrieval at the other end recreates the exact DSD A PCM conversion would entail changing the DSD irretrievably from DSD to multibit PCM and the delta sigma noise shaping would have to occur to allow this - the original datastream could not be recovered by reverse decoding (but a re-encode to DSD could occur which would not be bit identical so not truly lossless) The bit rate of "single rate" DSD as found on SACD is the same as 24 bit 176kHz PCM, so DOP uses a 24-192 PCM carrier signal to encapsulate that DSD, leaving spare capacity for other signal information that may be required to time align the clock, decode etc) |
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Aug 21, 2024 15:23:38 GMT -5
Part of what makes this sort of thing confusing is the use of words like "native"... You can send DSD over HDMI without converting it... which many would refer to as "sending it natively". But "native DSD", in the context of a DoP connection via USB, means something different. So "sending DSD natively over HDMI" is DIFFERENT THAN "sending 'native DSD' over HDMI".... Because "sending DSD natively over HDMI" would mean sending DSD over HDMI without converting it (which the RMC-1 supports)... While "sending 'native DSD' over HDMI" would mean sending "native DSD DoP packets" over HDMI (which we do NOT support)... (hey... I feel ya... but we didn't make this stuff up) In this case... The RMC-1 is capable of receiving DSD over HDMI... which would be indicated in our EDID. However, we DO NOT support receiving "native DSD over USB"... and so would NOT be listed as "supporting native DSD" under "USB output options". The real bottom line here is that DSD is not an especially popular format... Therefore support for it varies from device to device... And it also still carries some rather arcane copy protection restrictions... For example, a "fully compliant hardware SACD player", can play both DSD files and the DSD layer of SACD discs, as DSD audio data via HDMI. But that same "fully compliant hardware SACD player", can play DSD files, BUT NOT the DSD layer of SACD discs, via Coax or USB. (Only the HDMI output is encrypted and so meets the security requirements mandated for playing DSD data from a physical SACD disc.) (This is moot for software players since you cannot play a physical SACD disc on a computer... because there are no SACD drives for computers.) However, with software players, support for various DSD types and DSD output options varies quite widely... And the setup options to enable some of them can be really complicated... The best advice I can give there is to focus on "what they say it can do" rather than "the terminology they use". So, for example, most devices that "can play DSD over HDMI" can talk to most devices that "can understand DSD over HDMI"... And most devices that say they support DoP can be convinced to talk to other devices that support DoP... "Native DSD / DoP" tends to be a lot more complicated ... although most devices that support it also support regular DoP.) But... to address the original comment... "but still there is no native DSD option... weird." That's NOT weird... it supports "DSD over HDMI" and it would either "convert to PCM" or NOT convert to PCM. So, if you tell it to send DSD over HDMI, and DON'T check that "convert to PCM" box, then it's JUST "DSD over HDMI"... (And, if the receiving device doesn't support DSD, then the sending device will just convert the output to PCM without telling you.) And, yes, that IS what Oppos do... You've set it to DSD, and the display on the player will show DSD, but it will "silently convert to PCM" if the receiving device doesn't accept DSD. (There is a way to get an Oppo to display what's REALLY going on... it's either hold the Info button for a few seconds or double-tap it... I forget which.) ......................... tngiloy, thanks for your result of testing. According to manual and what Keith said, RMC-1 is not support DoP over HDMI. So I was asking Roon Support, and their answer was: " DSD DoP via HDMI is not a standard. There may not be a component in the world that supports it. HDMI DSD is either native or converted to PCM." So I asked again that then why Roon has no option shows native DSD if active device is connected via HDMI? Another answer was: " Thanks for writing in to ask about this. I can tell you that Roon is functioning the way it is designed to in this case. If you wish you can submit a Feature Suggestions if it receives enough upvotes from the rest of the community it will be considered." Ok, Roon does not support Native DSD over HDMI, and it is their design. I can ask Feature Suggestions, though I don't think it will be upvoted. Meanwhile, I only can use mConnect app to play 2-Channel DSD file or Multi-Channel DSD file through OPPO. It is only option that I can play Multi-Channel DSD with RMC-1. I want use just single app (Roon), but it is impossible at this moment.... OPPO is truly universal player, nothing is compete it's function and feature yet, even it is discontinued couple years ago... I need to purchase another second-hand OPPO 203 in case mine has end of life... Still there have question yet, if there is no device support DoP over HDMI, then why Roon show its option...? Maybe you are right that RMC-1 is not Roon certified, so they do not show correct option...! So I set it as Onkyo TX-RZ70 which is Roon certified device and also support native DSD over HDMI(I've test it with my friend), but still there is no native DSD option... weird. Sorry for all that I mentioning Roon on this Forum...! |
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Post by marcl on Aug 21, 2024 17:19:28 GMT -5
Part of what makes this sort of thing confusing is the use of words like "native"... You can send DSD over HDMI without converting it... which many would refer to as "sending it natively". But "native DSD", in the context of a DoP connection via USB, means something different. So "sending DSD natively over HDMI" is DIFFERENT THAN "sending 'native DSD' over HDMI".... Because "sending DSD natively over HDMI" would mean sending DSD over HDMI without converting it (which the RMC-1 supports)... While "sending 'native DSD' over HDMI" would mean sending "native DSD DoP packets" over HDMI (which we do NOT support)... (hey... I feel ya... but we didn't make this stuff up) In this case... The RMC-1 is capable of receiving DSD over HDMI... which would be indicated in our EDID. However, we DO NOT support receiving "native DSD over USB"... and so would NOT be listed as "supporting native DSD" under "USB output options". The real bottom line here is that DSD is not an especially popular format... Therefore support for it varies from device to device... And it also still carries some rather arcane copy protection restrictions... For example, a "fully compliant hardware SACD player", can play both DSD files and the DSD layer of SACD discs, as DSD audio data via HDMI. But that same "fully compliant hardware SACD player", can play DSD files, BUT NOT the DSD layer of SACD discs, via Coax or USB. (Only the HDMI output is encrypted and so meets the security requirements mandated for playing DSD data from a physical SACD disc.) (This is moot for software players since you cannot play a physical SACD disc on a computer... because there are no SACD drives for computers.) However, with software players, support for various DSD types and DSD output options varies quite widely... And the setup options to enable some of them can be really complicated... The best advice I can give there is to focus on "what they say it can do" rather than "the terminology they use". So, for example, most devices that "can play DSD over HDMI" can talk to most devices that "can understand DSD over HDMI"... And most devices that say they support DoP can be convinced to talk to other devices that support DoP... "Native DSD / DoP" tends to be a lot more complicated ... although most devices that support it also support regular DoP.) But... to address the original comment... "but still there is no native DSD option... weird." That's NOT weird... it supports "DSD over HDMI" and it would either "convert to PCM" or NOT convert to PCM. So, if you tell it to send DSD over HDMI, and DON'T check that "convert to PCM" box, then it's JUST "DSD over HDMI"... (And, if the receiving device doesn't support DSD, then the sending device will just convert the output to PCM without telling you.) And, yes, that IS what Oppos do... You've set it to DSD, and the display on the player will show DSD, but it will "silently convert to PCM" if the receiving device doesn't accept DSD. (There is a way to get an Oppo to display what's REALLY going on... it's either hold the Info button for a few seconds or double-tap it... I forget which.) tngiloy, thanks for your result of testing. According to manual and what Keith said, RMC-1 is not support DoP over HDMI. So I was asking Roon Support, and their answer was: " DSD DoP via HDMI is not a standard. There may not be a component in the world that supports it. HDMI DSD is either native or converted to PCM." So I asked again that then why Roon has no option shows native DSD if active device is connected via HDMI? Another answer was: " Thanks for writing in to ask about this. I can tell you that Roon is functioning the way it is designed to in this case. If you wish you can submit a Feature Suggestions if it receives enough upvotes from the rest of the community it will be considered." Ok, Roon does not support Native DSD over HDMI, and it is their design. I can ask Feature Suggestions, though I don't think it will be upvoted. Meanwhile, I only can use mConnect app to play 2-Channel DSD file or Multi-Channel DSD file through OPPO. It is only option that I can play Multi-Channel DSD with RMC-1. I want use just single app (Roon), but it is impossible at this moment.... OPPO is truly universal player, nothing is compete it's function and feature yet, even it is discontinued couple years ago... I need to purchase another second-hand OPPO 203 in case mine has end of life... Still there have question yet, if there is no device support DoP over HDMI, then why Roon show its option...? Maybe you are right that RMC-1 is not Roon certified, so they do not show correct option...! So I set it as Onkyo TX-RZ70 which is Roon certified device and also support native DSD over HDMI(I've test it with my friend), but still there is no native DSD option... weird. Sorry for all that I mentioning Roon on this Forum...! So much angst over "natively" playing a format that is inherently inferior to PCM ... when you can just convert them to PCM on the fly, dispense with all that shaped hypersonic noise, and not lose a drop of fidelity. Not to mention the fact that if you keep it DSD to the processor you can't use Dirac or any other processing.  |
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