ttocs
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I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,162
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Post by ttocs on Jun 10, 2023 20:58:10 GMT -5
I am getting a new mic to try and see if that will put me over the edge to complete Dirac. Hopefully, that does the trick. Don't get the UMIK-2. It has a low sensitivity for doing high SPL measurements and when used in Dirac the speakers need to be extremely loud to get enough signal to noise, and even then, the measured signal is just too low to get great results. Get a UMIK-1 which has a -18dB sensitivity setting from the factory and works great at lower volume levels. I have the Emm-1, UMIK-1, and UMIK-2. I only use the UMIK-2 with REW. |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 10, 2023 21:02:02 GMT -5
I ordered the emm-1 for now. If that doesn't work, I was planning on getting the UMIK-1.
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Post by marcl on Jun 11, 2023 7:56:00 GMT -5
I'd like to mention something that may or may not be related to this specific situation (because it doesn't involve the XPA-1) ... but well, it might be interesting. I've had both the Magnepan CC5 and CCR center speakers, both 3ohms, 88db sensitivity. The CC5 is quasi-ribbon rated 200-20kHz, while the CCR is the same size quasi-ribon panel but with an additional true ribbon tweeter and so is rated 200-40kHz. So those are the specs. In practice, the CC5 plays down to 200Hz and rolls off from there while the CCR makes it a bit lower to like 150Hz. Understandable, because the CCR uses the full 213sq-in quasi-ribbon panel as its midrange while the CC5 shares it with its tweeter section. The "Stand" we refer to is a special version of the DWM (dynamic woofer module) with a shelf on top for the CCR or CC5. It's specs are 4ohms, 40-200Hz (though it plays well over 300Hz), 86db sensitivity. It has a high pass output at 200Hz (12db/octave probably) which can be used to feed the CC5 or CCR. I believe the DWM impedance is still considered to be 4ohms with the 3ohm CC5 or CCR connected to the high pass output. FYI, this is what the CCR and Stand look like.   A couple years ago I only had one DWM to use with my CC5. After a lot of experimentation, measurements and listening I found that using a single DWM/Stand under the CC5 in the middle of the room did not work well, likely due to the Allison Effect causing a sharp notch at 90Hz. Moving the DWM well off-center eliminated the problem. Later I went to a two-DWM configuration with each placed 3ft from the side walls, one each to supplement my 3.7 L/R speakers and fill in cancellations in the room's bass response. I use my large fronts for Bass Management, so I crossed the CC5 at 200Hz. But each DWM has a second voice coil interleaved and so there are two independent sets of inputs, and two independent high pass outputs in each DWM. One voice coil in each DWM was unused. When I got the CCR in November I experimented some more, and also bought a new amp for the center channel ... a Nord Three Purifi-based amp. At 0.1% THD it's rated 210/420/800 Watts into 8/4/2 ohms respectively. After trying different ways to use the DWM's along with bass management, I decided to connect the two extra voice coils in parallel to the output of the Nord Three amp, and then drive the CCR from the high pass output of one of them. This would present a 2ohm load to the Nord Three amp. I set the center channel to Small and crossed it to Bass Management at 40Hz. Reviews that I've read comparing this Purifi amp to the original version state that the big advantage of this amp is its ability to drive a 2ohm load. And so I'm doing this, and I feel like the system performs best in this configuration. So okay, this is a different amp ... but I'm intentionally driving a nominal 2ohm load, and I have no issues with the amp shutting down and no issues running Dirac calibrations. It's been about 5 months of regular daily use with this configuration. p.s. even though Class D amps are very efficient, I decided to get an AC Infinity controller and three fans and place the fans over the Nord Three Monoblock (right) and also the Nord One Dual Mono (left) that drives my 3.7 L/R speakers ... mostly because it's cheap insurance and lets me easily monitor the actual temperature. The temperature sensor is on the top of the Nord Three case and it never goes more that 7-8 degrees above room ambient.  |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 11, 2023 8:35:03 GMT -5
I'd like to mention something that may or may not be related to this specific situation (because it doesn't involve the XPA-1) ... but well, it might be interesting. I've had both the Magnepan CC5 and CCR center speakers, both 3ohms, 88db sensitivity. The CC5 is quasi-ribbon rated 200-20kHz, while the CCR is the same size quasi-ribon panel but with an additional true ribbon tweeter and so is rated 200-40kHz. So those are the specs. In practice, the CC5 plays down to 200Hz and rolls off from there while the CCR makes it a bit lower to like 150Hz. Understandable, because the CCR uses the full 213sq-in quasi-ribbon panel as its midrange while the CC5 shares it with its tweeter section. The "Stand" we refer to is a special version of the DWM (dynamic woofer module) with a shelf on top for the CCR or CC5. It's specs are 4ohms, 40-200Hz (though it plays well over 300Hz), 86db sensitivity. It has a high pass output at 200Hz (12db/octave probably) which can be used to feed the CC5 or CCR. I believe the DWM impedance is still considered to be 4ohms with the 3ohm CC5 or CCR connected to the high pass output. FYI, this is what the CCR and Stand look like. View AttachmentView Attachment A couple years ago I only had one DWM to use with my CC5. After a lot of experimentation, measurements and listening I found that using a single DWM/Stand under the CC5 in the middle of the room did not work well, likely due to the Allison Effect causing a sharp notch at 90Hz. Moving the DWM well off-center eliminated the problem. Later I went to a two-DWM configuration with each placed 3ft from the side walls, one each to supplement my 3.7 L/R speakers and fill in cancellations in the room's bass response. I use my large fronts for Bass Management, so I crossed the CC5 at 200Hz. But each DWM has a second voice coil interleaved and so there are two independent sets of inputs, and two independent high pass outputs in each DWM. One voice coil in each DWM was unused. When I got the CCR in November I experimented some more, and also bought a new amp for the center channel ... a Nord Three Purifi-based amp. At 0.1% THD it's rated 210/420/800 Watts into 8/4/2 ohms respectively. After trying different ways to use the DWM's along with bass management, I decided to connect the two extra voice coils in parallel to the output of the Nord Three amp, and then drive the CCR from the high pass output of one of them. This would present a 2ohm load to the Nord Three amp. I set the center channel to Small and crossed it to Bass Management at 40Hz. Reviews that I've read comparing this Purifi amp to the original version state that the big advantage of this amp is its ability to drive a 2ohm load. And so I'm doing this, and I feel like the system performs best in this configuration. So okay, this is a different amp ... but I'm intentionally driving a nominal 2ohm load, and I have no issues with the amp shutting down and no issues running Dirac calibrations. It's been about 5 months of regular daily use with this configuration. p.s. even though Class D amps are very efficient, I decided to get an AC Infinity controller and three fans and place the fans over the Nord Three Monoblock (right) and also the Nord One Dual Mono (left) that drives my 3.7 L/R speakers ... mostly because it's cheap insurance and lets me easily monitor the actual temperature. The temperature sensor is on the top of the Nord Three case and it never goes more that 7-8 degrees above room ambient. View Attachment If this whole thing doesn't work out. I was planning on picking up a newer 3 channel Krell amp to power all three as I know that they are stable below 2 ohms. The way I would like to use the stand ultimately, is as a supplemental bass panel to the 3.7s and CCR and cross the CCR over at 200Hz. Using a different amp to power the stand and set it as the L/R mono sub. I tried playing some high res movies the other night at normal high volumes and the amp never once clipped. That is good news. I think once I get this microphone I should be able to get the Dirac going. I will try and go back to this way of running the stand. I was not impressed with the 26awg wire running throughout the stand. Not sure how it is possible to transfer 1000w through that and then to the CCR if hooked up the way Magnepan intended it to be. It sounds so much better not being hooked up to the stand. But the stand also sounds better for some reason as a L/R sub. I can't believe just how tight the bass is from that panel, not to mention how low it actually goes before rolling off. Now that I have the box patched, I should be able to complete the Dirac with this configuration. |
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Post by marcl on Jun 11, 2023 9:04:29 GMT -5
I'd like to mention something that may or may not be related to this specific situation (because it doesn't involve the XPA-1) ... but well, it might be interesting. I've had both the Magnepan CC5 and CCR center speakers, both 3ohms, 88db sensitivity. The CC5 is quasi-ribbon rated 200-20kHz, while the CCR is the same size quasi-ribon panel but with an additional true ribbon tweeter and so is rated 200-40kHz. So those are the specs. In practice, the CC5 plays down to 200Hz and rolls off from there while the CCR makes it a bit lower to like 150Hz. Understandable, because the CCR uses the full 213sq-in quasi-ribbon panel as its midrange while the CC5 shares it with its tweeter section. The "Stand" we refer to is a special version of the DWM (dynamic woofer module) with a shelf on top for the CCR or CC5. It's specs are 4ohms, 40-200Hz (though it plays well over 300Hz), 86db sensitivity. It has a high pass output at 200Hz (12db/octave probably) which can be used to feed the CC5 or CCR. I believe the DWM impedance is still considered to be 4ohms with the 3ohm CC5 or CCR connected to the high pass output. FYI, this is what the CCR and Stand look like. View AttachmentView Attachment A couple years ago I only had one DWM to use with my CC5. After a lot of experimentation, measurements and listening I found that using a single DWM/Stand under the CC5 in the middle of the room did not work well, likely due to the Allison Effect causing a sharp notch at 90Hz. Moving the DWM well off-center eliminated the problem. Later I went to a two-DWM configuration with each placed 3ft from the side walls, one each to supplement my 3.7 L/R speakers and fill in cancellations in the room's bass response. I use my large fronts for Bass Management, so I crossed the CC5 at 200Hz. But each DWM has a second voice coil interleaved and so there are two independent sets of inputs, and two independent high pass outputs in each DWM. One voice coil in each DWM was unused. When I got the CCR in November I experimented some more, and also bought a new amp for the center channel ... a Nord Three Purifi-based amp. At 0.1% THD it's rated 210/420/800 Watts into 8/4/2 ohms respectively. After trying different ways to use the DWM's along with bass management, I decided to connect the two extra voice coils in parallel to the output of the Nord Three amp, and then drive the CCR from the high pass output of one of them. This would present a 2ohm load to the Nord Three amp. I set the center channel to Small and crossed it to Bass Management at 40Hz. Reviews that I've read comparing this Purifi amp to the original version state that the big advantage of this amp is its ability to drive a 2ohm load. And so I'm doing this, and I feel like the system performs best in this configuration. So okay, this is a different amp ... but I'm intentionally driving a nominal 2ohm load, and I have no issues with the amp shutting down and no issues running Dirac calibrations. It's been about 5 months of regular daily use with this configuration. p.s. even though Class D amps are very efficient, I decided to get an AC Infinity controller and three fans and place the fans over the Nord Three Monoblock (right) and also the Nord One Dual Mono (left) that drives my 3.7 L/R speakers ... mostly because it's cheap insurance and lets me easily monitor the actual temperature. The temperature sensor is on the top of the Nord Three case and it never goes more that 7-8 degrees above room ambient. View Attachment If this whole thing doesn't work out. I was planning on picking up a newer 3 channel Krell amp to power all three as I know that they are stable below 2 ohms. The way I would like to use the stand ultimately, is as a supplemental bass panel to the 3.7s and CCR and cross the CCR over at 200Hz. Using a different amp to power the stand and set it as the L/R mono sub. I tried playing some high res movies the other night at normal high volumes and the amp never once clipped. That is good news. I think once I get this microphone I should be able to get the Dirac going. I will try and go back to this way of running the stand. I was not impressed with the 26awg wire running throughout the stand. Not sure how it is possible to transfer 1000w through that and then to the CCR if hooked up the way Magnepan intended it to be. It sounds so much better not being hooked up to the stand. But the stand also sounds better for some reason as a L/R sub. I can't believe just how tight the bass is from that panel, not to mention how low it actually goes before rolling off. Now that I have the box patched, I should be able to complete the Dirac with this configuration. I'm sure you'll find the solution, and you're making progress. The sound of the 3.7/CCR combination is SO good though, isn't it? I expected it to be good but it really is such a quantum leap ... and of course made even better with Dirac smoothing things out. One word of caution about the stand especially, and even the 3.7 ... not sure if any of your ideas would send LFE to either of these speakers, but they definitely do not like LFE. I have had the diaphragm of the 3.7 slap at 26Hz and the stand/DWM can slap at higher frequencies. I have never had an issue with normal movie or music content ... only when my experiments let LFE get to those speakers. You might find this interesting ... here is Dirac's measurement of my center channel with the two DWM's in parallel and the CCR.  I set fronts to Large and feed the L/R to the two DWM's by splitting them and sending one side to a miniDSP HD, send L/R to each DWM and also combine them to send to the subs below 50Hz. Here's the Dirac measurement of the fronts combining subs, DWM's and 3.7's.  Forgot to mention ... the stand/DWM only really plays down to 50Hz, but my room has a resonance at 40 so it gets a boost there, then drops off sharply. |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 11, 2023 9:16:35 GMT -5
It is an amazing difference coming from a CC3. I am only sending LFE to my rear HSU sub. That handles the 35Hz and below just fine. The XMC-2 I don't believe sends the LFE signals in mono. That way I have a musically balanced system should I ever listen to music from them. Haven't yet in 8 years since owning them. It is really just setup as a theater only. Have you ever heard the MC2s? Just like the CCR. Amazing how they blend with the 3.7s.
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Post by marcl on Jun 11, 2023 9:28:13 GMT -5
It is an amazing difference coming from a CC3. I am only sending LFE to my rear HSU sub. That handles the 35Hz and below just fine. The XMC-2 I don't believe sends the LFE signals in mono. That way I have a musically balanced system should I ever listen to music from them. Haven't yet in 8 years since owning them. It is really just setup as a theater only. Have you ever heard the MC2s? Just like the CCR. Amazing how they blend with the 3.7s. MC2 is even more rare than a CCR ... I've never heard the MC2. When I bought the MC1 for surrounds Wendell said the MC2 was "overkill" but I didn't have the money anyway so I got the MC1. I used the MC1 for a few years but it developed a problem below 150Hz ... I tried having Magnepan work on it but it didn't fix the bass problem. So now I'm using a pair of LRS for surrounds. Do I understand correctly that you're using a rear sub for LFE-only, and a front sub for Bass Management? And the front sub has its crossover set to 35Hz? |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 11, 2023 9:42:05 GMT -5
The MC2 is a 3 way Quasi. I am not sure why they stopped making them. I know I have one of the first pair of motorized MC2's and love them. I could see using them as a small pair of Maggies in a smaller room.
As for the subs. I am using LFE-only for the rear and the sub itself is crossed over at 35Hz and below. The front stand I have setup at 200Hz and below as mono under Bass Management.
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Post by marcl on Jun 11, 2023 10:12:38 GMT -5
The MC2 is a 3 way Quasi. I am not sure why they stopped making them. I know I have one of the first pair of motorized MC2's and love them. I could see using them as a small pair of Maggies in a smaller room. As for the subs. I am using LFE-only for the rear and the sub itself is crossed over at 35Hz and below. The front stand I have setup at 200Hz and below as mono under Bass Management. There were some issues with the motorized version of the MC2, like they would not tell the buyer how to install the motor ... insisted it had to be dealer installed. And the price too ... probably just never sold enough. Even the CCR ... I heard from a reliable source that as of at least April they had not made one CCR (nor 30.7) so far in 2023. I was very lucky to get my CCR used. So just a clarification ... and maybe you understand but for others reading ... If you have the center sub output set to LFE, then only LFE goes to the center sub. LFE content can go up to 120Hz according to Dolby spec, so the center sub should have its crossover set all the way up. Otherwise you lose significant content by low passing at 35Hz. So do you have the Stand (DWM) connected to the left sub output set to Mono, so that the Stand gets Bass Management? And all speakers are set to Small? If so, then even with your fronts set to Small with the crossover at 40, the Stand is not playing much from the fronts, but that's okay. And then the other Small speakers get nice bass down to 40 or 50Hz from the Stand, depending on your room resonances. So in this configuration the CCR crosses at 200 and the MC2 at 100 or something like that. Am I right? |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 11, 2023 10:23:03 GMT -5
Yes. You are correct. I will go ahead and see what differences it makes with the sub all the way up. I just did not want it overriding the bass from the 3.7s'. But as you are stating it to be setup, will any of that LFE bass go to them anyway?
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Post by marcl on Jun 11, 2023 10:29:50 GMT -5
Yes. You are correct. I will go ahead and see what differences it makes with the sub all the way up. I just did not want it overriding the bass from the 3.7s'. But as you are stating it to be setup, will any of that LFE bass go to them anyway? This is an important point, and quite a nice feature of the XMC/RMC ..... if you set center sub=LFE, then ONLY LFE will go to the center sub ... and it will ONLY go to the center sub. Setting the crossover on the sub itself all the way up will have no effect on the 3.7. No LFE will go to the 3.7 or any other speaker but the center sub. So then for Bass Management you have two choices: if you have only left - or left and right - subs configured, then Bass Management will go there. If you have nothing connected to left or right subs, then Bass Management wants to go to whatever speakers are set to Large. So for example, if you have nothing connected to L/R subs, and fronts set to Large, then the fronts play their full range and Bass Management from the CCR and MC2 will go to the fronts. |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 11, 2023 10:38:56 GMT -5
So if I understand, that is why you are setting the fronts to small and then crossing them over at 40Hz. That way they still get the bass but then all of the bass would go to the Left sub as well?
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Post by marcl on Jun 11, 2023 11:48:01 GMT -5
So if I understand, that is why you are setting the fronts to small and then crossing them over at 40Hz. That way they still get the bass but then all of the bass would go to the Left sub as well? With the center sub=LFE, and the left sub=Mono, then Bass Management (all the bass from Speakers set to Small, below their crossover) will go to the left sub.. If you have a sub capable of playing below 40Hz, at least down to 20Hz, then yes if you set the fronts to Small and cross the fronts at 40Hz, then front bass below 40Hz would go to the left sub. The thing is, if you do it this way then the bass from your other small speakers also goes to the left sub. That's not so bad for the MC2 crossing at 80, but would not be very good for the CCR crossing at 200. So in that case you would want the Stand connected to the center channel output and have it high pass to the CCR, and cross your center channel to Bass Management (left sub output) at around 50Hz. And I'm sorry I know there were a few options for how you would use the Stand and I kind of lost track .... I hope what I'm saying makes sense in the current configuration. |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 11, 2023 12:04:13 GMT -5
So if I understand, that is why you are setting the fronts to small and then crossing them over at 40Hz. That way they still get the bass but then all of the bass would go to the Left sub as well? With the center sub=LFE, and the left sub=Mono, then Bass Management (all the bass from Speakers set to Small, below their crossover) will go to the left sub.. If you have a sub capable of playing below 40Hz, at least down to 20Hz, then yes if you set the fronts to Small and cross the fronts at 40Hz, then front bass below 40Hz would go to the left sub. The thing is, if you do it this way then the bass from your other small speakers also goes to the left sub. That's not so bad for the MC2 crossing at 80, but would not be very good for the CCR crossing at 200. So in that case you would want the Stand connected to the center channel output and have it high pass to the CCR, and cross your center channel to Bass Management (left sub output) at around 50Hz. And I'm sorry I know there were a few options for how you would use the Stand and I kind of lost track .... I hope what I'm saying makes sense in the current configuration. Lost you on this one. My front "sub" is the stand. I was planning on crossing it over at 200Hz to cover everything from the rest of the speakers including the CCR and using it as the Left front sub. I really do not want to use the crossover network in the stand to the CCR. I have been told to bypass that all together due to the power of the amp. This was the setup that Magnepan told me was best for my setup as the XPA-1 is too much amp for the stand and not the CCR. The two amp method was preferred by them for what I am trying to accomplish. |
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Post by marcl on Jun 11, 2023 12:40:33 GMT -5
With the center sub=LFE, and the left sub=Mono, then Bass Management (all the bass from Speakers set to Small, below their crossover) will go to the left sub.. If you have a sub capable of playing below 40Hz, at least down to 20Hz, then yes if you set the fronts to Small and cross the fronts at 40Hz, then front bass below 40Hz would go to the left sub. The thing is, if you do it this way then the bass from your other small speakers also goes to the left sub. That's not so bad for the MC2 crossing at 80, but would not be very good for the CCR crossing at 200. So in that case you would want the Stand connected to the center channel output and have it high pass to the CCR, and cross your center channel to Bass Management (left sub output) at around 50Hz. And I'm sorry I know there were a few options for how you would use the Stand and I kind of lost track .... I hope what I'm saying makes sense in the current configuration. Lost you on this one. My front "sub" is the stand. I was planning on crossing it over at 200Hz to cover everything from the rest of the speakers including the CCR and using it as the Left front sub. I really do not want to use the crossover network in the stand to the CCR. I have been told to bypass that all together due to the power of the amp. This was the setup that Magnepan told me was best for my setup as the XPA-1 is too much amp for the stand and not the CCR. The two amp method was preferred by them for what I am trying to accomplish. Okay actually I was suspecting that was the case but since we were talking about subs I wasn't sure. So .... you have the Stand connected to the left sub output and with the center sub=LFE and left sub=mono your bass management goes to the Stand. This is fine. So you set your fronts to Large because there's no point sending 3.7 bass to the Stand. Set the center crossover to 200 and its bass goes to the Stand. You cross your MC2 at 80 and that bass goes to the Stand. Center and MC2 bass plays down to 40-50Hz. The Stand is still playing your center channel bass below 200Hz, but you're using the crossover in the XMC-2 rather than the one in the Stand. I understand now ... thanks! The curious thing in all this is I don't see where there's an issue driving the Stand/CCR combination. I drove my DWM/CC5 combination with an Outlaw multichannel amp that's rated 300W into 4ohms, then for a long time I used an Emotiva PA-1, also 300W into 4ohms. And when I got the CCR I used the PA-1 to drive the DWM/CCR combination. In each case I used the high pass output on the DWM. And now I have two DWM's in parallel with the Nord amp driving 2ohms and the CCR connected to a DWM high pass ... all working fine. Curious .... |
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Post by wrk24wheel on Jun 11, 2023 13:03:21 GMT -5
It is because it looks like the XPA-1 shuts down at 2ohms and the CCR alone hits 1.5 during the Dirac sweep. The combination works great with my Sunfire multichannel amps, just won't work with the XPA-1 due to the differential bridged output.
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