|
|
Post by routlaw on Jun 25, 2023 16:37:22 GMT -5
Lately I have been "lightly obsessing" and learning about the difference in line level cables and since most of my gear is balanced design, naturally I use all balanced XLR Cables. The question is whether or not Star Quad is better than twisted pair geometry in this situation. John Siau owner/designer at Benchmark Audio a highly regarded company both in the pro audio as well as audiophile markets as a lot to say on the subject. The links below provide a video where Mr Siau demonstrates to my way of thinking the indisputable advantage of Star Quad. Its a short video about 11 minutes or so where he clearly demonstrates the advantages of Star Quad using various devices such as power transformers, chargers for phones, pads and computers as well as the noticeable difference with two of his companies own DAC's one with SMPS compared to linear power supplies. The SMPS wins hands down and by a large margin. The link also provides lots of additional technical information regarding star quad as well as links for further examination on the subject. Hopefully forum members will find this useful. benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/116637511-the-importance-of-star-quad-microphone-cablevimeo.com/155057552 |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jun 25, 2023 18:27:01 GMT -5
Lately I have been "lightly obsessing" and learning about the difference in line level cables and since most of my gear is balanced design, naturally I use all balanced XLR Cables. The question is whether or not Star Quad is better than twisted pair geometry in this situation. Naturally  |
|
|
|
Post by vcautokid on Jun 25, 2023 18:53:43 GMT -5
Hmmm, that is a Keith question. Okay Keith, all yours.
|
|
|
|
Post by routlaw on Jun 25, 2023 19:40:09 GMT -5
Hmmm, that is a Keith question. Okay Keith, all yours. Thanks, still a lot to be learned, at least for me, on the links above. John Siau provides a lot of technical information on the benefits of star quad and from my perspective provides ample proof. |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 25, 2023 20:50:05 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Jun 25, 2023 21:31:08 GMT -5
Overkill for home audio. This is intended for professional studio/auditorium/large format audio installations (read wires all over the place), to assure no induced magnetic or electrostatic interferences get into the cable. Cable inter capacitance is higher than in standard balanced cables causing greater high frequency roll off. Really most people arque that balanced connections are overkill for home audio, let alone quad star, an embellishment on even normal balanced cables.
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jun 26, 2023 0:47:02 GMT -5
From what I've read, the advantages aren't actually audible in double-blind tests. True or false? I don't know.
|
|
ttocs
Global Moderator 
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
|
Post by ttocs on Jun 26, 2023 7:37:03 GMT -5
. . . but for longer runs in more hostile environment . . . Exactly this ^. I ran across a very long winded dissertation by a Belden Engineer about cable design. In it, he briefly mentioned Star Quad Interconnects by saying that unless there is the chaotic grouping together of audio/lighting/power cables as would be found at a venue, the home user would not benefit from this design. He further stated that it's easy in a home environment to keep power away from interconnects, and this is where cable elevators can come into play to help keep the interconnects away from power, otherwise, he said, there is no reason to use elevators except that the user may just like them. So if you have stage lighting and lots of power cables running together with your interconnects in your home, then Star Quad will reduce the possibility of induced noise into your interconnects. |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 26, 2023 9:08:31 GMT -5
From what I've read, the advantages aren't actually audible in double-blind tests. True or false? I don't know. I think that could be said about much that’s discussed here, but in certain situations it could probably be measured. |
|
|
|
Post by routlaw on Jun 26, 2023 9:29:31 GMT -5
From what I've read, the advantages aren't actually audible in double-blind tests. True or false? I don't know. Well I would debate that. Just went through this a few days ago and also before reading and viewing the information on the Benchmark website with Mogami 2534 (star quad) and 2549 twisted pair both about a meter long, volume set identically and both cables made by Performance Audio in SLC. Using music I was very familiar with the difference was quite noticeable, not subtle at all. I don't have a horse in this race and couldn't give a rats behind which performed better or even if the exact same. But through each comparison to my ears in my system I much preferred the star quad with 2534 which is contrary to what most recording engineers state. I'm not a proponent of double blind but regardless believe I would be able to tell the difference in that scenario between the two cables. FWIW if you watched the video with John Siau while he was using an Audio Precision device to graph the difference between the two types of cables it seems clear to me there should be an advantage with star quad. Many audiophiles want proof with measurements which is exactly what Mr Siau has done here. |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
|
Post by ttocs on Jun 26, 2023 10:22:37 GMT -5
Well I would debate that. Just went through this a few days ago and also before reading and viewing the information on the Benchmark website with Mogami 2534 (star quad) and 2549 twisted pair both about a meter long, volume set identically and both cables made by Performance Audio in SLC. Using music I was very familiar with the difference was quite noticeable, not subtle at all. I don't have a horse in this race and couldn't give a rats behind which performed better or even if the exact same. But through each comparison to my ears in my system I much preferred the star quad with 2534 which is contrary to what most recording engineers state. I'm not a proponent of double blind but regardless believe I would be able to tell the difference in that scenario between the two cables. FWIW if you watched the video with John Siau while he was using an Audio Precision device to graph the difference between the two types of cables it seems clear to me there should be an advantage with star quad. Many audiophiles want proof with measurements which is exactly what Mr Siau has done here. I don't doubt you heard a difference. But. Don't shoot me yet, just want to say a couple things, neither of which will dispute your findings. The Star Quad configuration is directed at reducing noise induction into a cable. The noise reducing capability will not alter the sound. What will alter sound in an audible way is when the LCR of one cable is different from another cable. This is what you are hearing. Ok, three things. Thirdly, and lastly (at the moment), because you have improved performance, keep the better performance and know you've got a great designed cable for keeping extraneous noise at bay! edit: See? I knew there'd be something else. Maybe a better way to say this is, Star Quad design in and of itself will sound the same as another cable of a different design but with exactly the same LCR specs, within a tolerance because there are other considerations including Timing/Phase. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
|
Post by KeithL on Jun 26, 2023 11:07:53 GMT -5
From everything I've seen the general claim is that StarQuad has better cancellation of specific types of noise.
(So that would be a benefit if you have those types of noise issues.)
And the downside is that, all else being equal, StarQuad has slightly higher capacitance.
(Which could result in greater high frequency losses under some conditions.)
And both of those should be more significant with long runs and low signal levels.
(So more likely to be significant with long microphone cables... and less likely to be noticeable with short line-level interconnects.)
(Also note that, under most normal circumstances, neither should matter much.)
I've occasionally made headphone cables using Canare's StarQuad cable...
And, to be quite honest, while I wouldn't say it sounded any different, it was very nice cable to work with and use.
As I recall the smaller gauge shielded Canare StarQuad also comes in a nice selection of colors... and it isn't terribly expensive.
(Nice and soft and flexible compared to some other cable of similar gauge.)
It's also worth mentioning that StarQuad is really just a variation on twisted pair.
(It works for the same reason.... it's just a doubled twisted pair with a tighter twist.)
|
|
|
|
Post by LuisV on Jun 26, 2023 14:05:00 GMT -5
I've been using Canare L-4E6S for RCA / XLR cables for the last 4+ years and their 4S11 speaker cables for over 15 years... both models are star quad cables. I can't say I heard any major differences between these cables and the significantly more expensive cables they replaced; however, as Keith indicated they are extremely flexible / easy to work with and the fact that they are so much easier on the wallet is another plus. www.canare.com/speakercablewww.canare.com/analogaudiocableI've purchased various cables from World's Best Cables on Amazon as they have numerous Canare and Mogami cables options with Neutrik or Amphenol connectors; Blue Jeans sells 4S11 on Amazon and through their own website. |
|
|
|
Post by routlaw on Jun 27, 2023 14:54:22 GMT -5
I've been using Canare L-4E6S for RCA / XLR cables for the last 4+ years and their 4S11 speaker cables for over 15 years... both models are star quad cables. I can't say I heard any major differences between these cables and the significantly more expensive cables they replaced; however, as Keith indicated they are extremely flexible / easy to work with and the fact that they are so much easier on the wallet is another plus. www.canare.com/speakercablewww.canare.com/analogaudiocableI've purchased various cables from World's Best Cables on Amazon as they have numerous Canare and Mogami cables options with Neutrik or Amphenol connectors; Blue Jeans sells 4S11 on Amazon and through their own website. Likewise I have as well been using the Canare L-4E6s made by BJC though I have not tried the star quad speaker cable. FYI Blue Jeans will make those Canare custom to custom lengths and have great service to boot as well Performance Audio in SLC. Have received great service from both companies but Performance allows for far more customization if needed. |
|
|
|
Post by routlaw on Jun 27, 2023 15:01:53 GMT -5
From everything I've seen the general claim is that StarQuad has better cancellation of specific types of noise. (So that would be a benefit if you have those types of noise issues.) And the downside is that, all else being equal, StarQuad has slightly higher capacitance. (Which could result in greater high frequency losses under some conditions.) And both of those should be more significant with long runs and low signal levels. (So more likely to be significant with long microphone cables... and less likely to be noticeable with short line-level interconnects.) (Also note that, under most normal circumstances, neither should matter much.) It's also worth mentioning that StarQuad is really just a variation on twisted pair. (It works for the same reason.... it's just a doubled twisted pair with a tighter twist.) Star Quad excels at EMI/Magnetic interference while shielded cable alone has not effect on those issues from all I have read from other engineers. It's my understanding star quad has about 1.5 times the capacitance, on average, compared to twisted pair cables. However from the equations I have seen it takes very long cable run to drop 20KHZ a half a DB, lengths not usually associated with home audio. The Mogami 2534 is lower in capacitance than the rough equivalent the Canare Star Quad though. Canare apparently is a bit more robust with build quality. |
|
|
|
Post by routlaw on Jun 27, 2023 15:13:02 GMT -5
I don't doubt you heard a difference. But. Don't shoot me yet, just want to say a couple things, neither of which will dispute your findings. The Star Quad configuration is directed at reducing noise induction into a cable. The noise reducing capability will not alter the sound. What will alter sound in an audible way is when the LCR of one cable is different from another cable. This is what you are hearing. Ok, three things. Thirdly, and lastly (at the moment), because you have improved performance, keep the better performance and know you've got a great designed cable for keeping extraneous noise at bay! edit: See? I knew there'd be something else. Maybe a better way to say this is, Star Quad design in and of itself will sound the same as another cable of a different design but with exactly the same LCR specs, within a tolerance because there are other considerations including Timing/Phase. We can agree on a lot. The noise reduction for star quad is mainly associated with EMI/magnetic interference, ie power supplies especially linear, ac power cables, and those types of items which apparently shielded cable has no effect on. Begs the question then about single ended RCA cables that only rely on shields vs two sets of twisted pairs cross connected. I agree the LCR of the two types of cables are considerably different and not just the capacitance. But also consider the possibility the potential additional EMI or magnetic noise affecting twisted pair cables and as John Siau demonstrated in his video those noise levels are often 20-50 db higher than with star quad. So, if people swear they can hear the distortion in amps at 90db, 100db or 110 db down seems very likely a cable that has been affected by noise at only 20 or 30 db down would compromise the signal. All that said I have no idea how a cable regardless of its geometry would affect timing and phase, at least in this application. Anyway thanks |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 27, 2023 18:08:32 GMT -5
What will alter sound in an audible way is when the LCR of one cable is different from another cable. … … I agree the LCR of the two types of cables are considerably different and not just the capacitance…. So is there a specific reason to use LCR in this discussion, as opposed to Z, or characteristic impedance? I’ve not seen it done before and want to understand if it’s better to use in this context? (also to avoid confusion with the Left/Center/Right LCR I referred to above) |
|
ttocs
Global Moderator
I always have a wonderful time, wherever I am, whomever I'm with. (Elwood P Dowd)
Posts: 8,154
|
Post by ttocs on Jun 27, 2023 18:21:08 GMT -5
What will alter sound in an audible way is when the LCR of one cable is different from another cable. … … I agree the LCR of the two types of cables are considerably different and not just the capacitance…. So is there a specific reason to use LCR in this discussion, as opposed to Z, or characteristic impedance? I’ve not seen it done before and want to understand if it’s better to use in this context? (also to avoid confusion with the Left/Center/Right LCR I referred to above) You know, it didn’t occur to me the same acronym for the two uses. LCR in this case is for: L: Inductance C: Capacitance R: Resistance Sorry, should’ve specified this in this discussion. |
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Jun 27, 2023 18:25:55 GMT -5
So is there a specific reason to use LCR in this discussion, as opposed to Z, or characteristic impedance? I’ve not seen it done before and want to understand if it’s better to use in this context? (also to avoid confusion with the Left/Center/Right LCR I referred to above) You know, it didn’t occur to me the same acronym for the two uses. LCR in this case is for: L: Inductance C: Capacitance R: Resistance Sorry, should’ve specified this in this discussion. Yes, I understood that, but wondered why LCR was used when impedance (Z) is the typical term, just being more specific? |
|
|
|
Post by routlaw on Jun 28, 2023 11:41:36 GMT -5
You know, it didn’t occur to me the same acronym for the two uses. LCR in this case is for: L: Inductance C: Capacitance R: Resistance Sorry, should’ve specified this in this discussion. Yes, I understood that, but wondered why LCR was used when impedance (Z) is the typical term, just being more specific? Impedance is not the issue here, only inductance, resistance and capacitance. It's my understanding only digital cables have a specified impedance, for instance: USB=90, AES=110, Coax=75 ohm impedance. I found it curious when viewing John Siau's video in the link he stated there was a 150 ohm impedance device attached to the end of each cable being tested which supposedly matched a microphone impedance. First time I have ever heard of such but then I am no EE either. In the case of Star Quad cables, as previously stated in another reply capacitance increases on an average of 1.5x compared to twisted pair, but the resistance will be cut in half however I have no idea how the inductance of a Star Quad cable changes. |
|
