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Post by leonski on Oct 21, 2023 20:46:36 GMT -5
Just looked at sub build.
REALLY nice. Well done on the woodwork part.......I don't own the right tool set for that project.....though I have improvised a circle cutting jig using my ROUTER.
No table saw, though.....
I've gotten good with POCKET SCREWS so no fasteners show where I don't want them to...
LOVE the ADCOM......a Nelson Pass design. No question about power here! Me? I'd be tempted to experiment with a MiniDSP for crossover......
All that bass potential in ONE spot? Build a 2nd one? Sheesh!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2023 7:56:40 GMT -5
Two subs are just wonderful. I did listen to just one while I was finishing the 2nd. One was good for sure, but adding a 2nd one. I know technically that two subs help reduce bass nulls, but I can only describe two subs as bass filling a room in a way I've never heard before. I'll never do a single sub again. If you think that's overkill, people do 4 subs in a HT.
What I did is pretty modest compared to some of the absurd builds I've seen over the years. Still great because I don't care for boosted bass or pressurizing a room, but people take things WAY farther.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2023 19:11:52 GMT -5
I feel like I need to correct myself a little. I don't want to suggest that 1 sub can't be great. In my last setup, I had a room that was shaped like a small scale theater and I only ran 3.1. With that room, dynamics were much easier and it didn't take much to fill the room and 1 subwoofer worked great. Where I'm at now, the same system didn't work too well and it took more efficient subs and speakers to get to the same place. I just didn't want to come across as a snob that suggest that anything less than 2 subs is needed in every situation.
*edit: Two subs have a technical advantage over 1, but if your happy with a single setup, don't bother changing.
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Post by leonski on Oct 22, 2023 23:59:01 GMT -5
www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdfGive THIS a read. An excellent and well written article from a very good study...... I wish you could hear MY room. The odd shape and 8 walls / vaulted ceiling I think help to 'distribute' the bass more evenly..... If you look at that article, you'll see some multi sub setups are not really better than a single sub.....People make errors in setup which doesnt' help much.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2023 8:05:26 GMT -5
www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdfGive THIS a read. An excellent and well written article from a very good study...... I wish you could hear MY room. The odd shape and 8 walls / vaulted ceiling I think help to 'distribute' the bass more evenly..... If you look at that article, you'll see some multi sub setups are not really better than a single sub.....People make errors in setup which doesnt' help much. A good read for sure. I wish they would have talked about phase settings with each subwoofer setup. Especially mid room placement. Many subs only have 0-180 degree phase choices and I'm not sure how well that would work for middle room side placement. Might need external dedicated sub amps with more phase and DSP options. Also, without a dedicated room for only HT, optimal locations aren't always possible. I'd fully agree that people make errors in setup. I once saw a setup with two subs that were not matching. The owner loved it, but it didn't seem optimal to me. Keep in mind that people who build extreme 100K plus theaters hire professionals to design and install it all. Placement and install errors usually happen when people don't have a clue what they are doing, and only guessing. It's also possible to get lucky with placing a sub where a person wants it, and it can still sound very good. If it's a WAF to hide a sub under a table, than that's where its going. As long as it's not placed in a null from the seating position, it doesn't have to be the most optimal. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 23, 2023 20:22:39 GMT -5
I"ve seen TWO major phase settings for subs.
0-180 is fine....and may help with somethihg like my Dipoles......where the front / backwave are 180 out.
More common and cheaper, maybe is the simple 2-position switch......No subtlty here.....Just a simple yes / no question!
The variable is perfect IF you know how and do take the time to do it. Best case is ability to adjust to perfect.....
But one way will be ahead or behind the 'perfect sync'....
I don't know how, other than by ear, to get multiple subs to agree with one-another.....And if you have 4? You have a LOT
of combinations if you go 'brute force'.......You could Always just turn 'em on ONE at a time, peak, shut off and go on.
I don't mean to be harsh, but the 0->180 is plenty for any sub location. But may vary as to frequency. That's why I'm NOT in
favor of 100hz Plus crossover points. More trouble than they are worth, IMO.....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 12:53:07 GMT -5
I"ve seen TWO major phase settings for subs. 0-180 is fine....and may help with somethihg like my Dipoles......where the front / backwave are 180 out. More common and cheaper, maybe is the simple 2-position switch......No subtlty here.....Just a simple yes / no question! The variable is perfect IF you know how and do take the time to do it. Best case is ability to adjust to perfect..... But one way will be ahead or behind the 'perfect sync'.... I don't know how, other than by ear, to get multiple subs to agree with one-another.....And if you have 4? You have a LOT of combinations if you go 'brute force'.......You could Always just turn 'em on ONE at a time, peak, shut off and go on. I don't mean to be harsh, but the 0->180 is plenty for any sub location. But may vary as to frequency. That's why I'm NOT in favor of 100hz Plus crossover points. More trouble than they are worth, IMO..... In the link you shared, they showed a lot of simulation with mid room subwoofer placement, but they didn't talk about what phase settings they used. Pretty sure choosing between 0-180 isn't going to work from mid room placement. I'd agree that is fine for front and rear sub placement. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 24, 2023 14:47:47 GMT -5
This is EASILY testable. I can't think of a reason why it would or would not work.....since so many subs (the majority, I think?) have only the option of Zero or 180......
I'm not even certain that turning the sub 90 or 180 would not help, either, except in the case of a down-firing type.....
That article is generally considered the Gold Standard in its niche of the subject matter....They had resources backing 'em up!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 14:57:07 GMT -5
I would think subs center room would need between 50-60 degree phase, depending upon the shape of the room. Since the paper didn't even discuss phase settings, I'm not going to assume. I always thought the center of the room had the worst nulls and was the worst place for sub placement. Didn't realize that paper was a gold standard.
Since actual theaters only use subs behind the screen. I don't even know of a sigle one that has rear subs. Or center room subs. Granted, I can't find a single Atmos theater anywhere near me. Either way, the topic is straying really far from general HT sub setup and getting into the realm of full blown room setup with no limitations, or the Emotive X series amps.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 15:19:00 GMT -5
Sorry to the original poster who asked a simple question. Unless you are using RAAL ribbon tweeters, your original quest is likely solid. philharmonicaudio.com/BMR-Tower.htmlBassX worked for me and my goals. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 24, 2023 15:46:11 GMT -5
Just my Opinion, but that last and largest hurdle IS setup.
Many setups are space constrained and maybe should not have been attempted.
Some are 'decorator' constrained.
Still others are 'time' constrained...where the owner could make things better by
spending TIME doing a really detailed setup....
I think the Bas-X line is a real good value proposition. But IMO, more for a system
which has a planned lifetime......You'll want to upgrade IF you move to a new location
or 'get the bug' the UPGRADE bug....
I think it IS possible to buy near-lifetime gear......THAT is where the Bas-X lacks......
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2023 15:59:35 GMT -5
Just my Opinion, but that last and largest hurdle IS setup. Many setups are space constrained and maybe should not have been attempted. Some are 'decorator' constrained. Still others are 'time' constrained...where the owner could make things better by spending TIME doing a really detailed setup.... I think the Bas-X line is a real good value proposition. But IMO, more for a system which has a planned lifetime......You'll want to upgrade IF you move to a new location or 'get the bug' the UPGRADE bug.... I think it IS possible to buy near-lifetime gear......THAT is where the Bas-X lacks...... Setup, speaker placement is VERY important, it really doesn't require breaking bank to get yesterday's Audiophile grade playback. We live in a world of access, and that includes the audio industry. It really doesn't take that much to get a great system now days. If you want the best of the best today, than go for it. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 24, 2023 17:58:06 GMT -5
Room First.....
Ok system in a wonderful space aces out a MegaBuck system in an awful space.....every time......
More $$$ than Bas-X probably only buys marginal improvements in sound and I hope the ability to handle some
wacker (more reactive) speaker loads. And than as limits are approached.
But for ME? Buying to last is also a consideration.....And worth more $$$.
Mac will still repair nearly anything they EVER made......
And a buddy of mine had a problem with one of his Parasound JC-1 amps.....He sent it back and they fixed
and sent it back and neglected to ever send a bill......THAT kind of company!
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