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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2023 17:05:57 GMT -5
This! www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5L-V-2i4BkWhile I don't always agree with reviews and it's easy to armchair critique, in this case, it seems tube amps can't control bass as much. At least in the affordable range. Not to suggest the best of the best can't. In many cases, solid state is still a great option. I had a ton of fun with my tube amps. When I was very young When I was very young, all they had were tube amps. (lol.) that being said, the transition to solid state was a revelation for me all the coolness, and POWER. after that the thought of going back never occurred to me. The impressions I were getting was that they were very accurate almost too much in a way just kind of weird with hearing absolutely nothing, except the sound of the music background noise of any kind. I totally get the appreciation people have for the tube amplifiers today. I’m simply not there. I don't have as much experience as you, only that I know that are great at soft clipping. Even then, when I was shown off a tube amp system, I preferred turning it down where it was in the clean range. I'd probably look into modern class A amps or hybrid tube amps now days. www.schiit.com/products/aegirheaven11audio.com/billie-amp-stereo-intergrated-amplifier/www.crutchfield.com/p_958MA252/McIntosh-MA252.html?tp=34948 |
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Post by leonski on Oct 30, 2023 17:23:16 GMT -5
The link was to a review of the Cornwall iII. The KLIPSCH '3 series' has been superceded by the '4 series'.....IV.....
the difference is important in the 3 largest sellers in the Heritage line for what seems to be good reason.
Bass cabs / performance are essentially unchanged. Let's get that out of the way!
Midrange is the SAME on all 3....Heresy IV, Forte IV and Cornwall IV.....BUT the midrange is a 'driver' and a 'horn'.
If you had a machine shop or just some cool ingenuity, you could use the driver and MAKE YOUR OWN HORN.......
It seems all 3 use the K-702 DRIVER. Cornwall / Forte use the same HORN, but i don't think the Heresy does.
I'm less clear on the tweeter. It seems the Cornwall and Heresy use the SAME K-107 TI driver which is upgraded
for all the new 'IV' series. But the Forte calls out a K-100 TI driver which I THINK is a misprint...
The Forte also calls out a K-79T horn......for the tweeter.
I don't KNOW if the horn is the same on the Cornwall to the Forte for mids...
But the crossover is called out differently... Which accounts, in part for differences in REVIEWS......Which I generally
dont' trust, anyway!
The STEREOPHILE measured data for the Forte III shows big inductance (reactance) / impedance peaks in the bottom octave.
Near PR (passive radiator) tuning which IMO may account for NOT being hugely 'tube friendly'....This is unchanged from the
III to the IV......so I'll go with THAT as valid for both....
Know the reviewer. I see ONE guy say he could 'almost live with the Forte IV'.......
My BRIEF audition was a huge success. I'll dismount one of my amps and take it UP to DSS and test MY amp with the Klipsch'.......
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 30, 2023 18:28:02 GMT -5
The link was to a review of the Cornwall iII. The KLIPSCH '3 series' has been superceded by the '4 series'.....IV..... the difference is important in the 3 largest sellers in the Heritage line for what seems to be good reason. Bass cabs / performance are essentially unchanged. Let's get that out of the way! Midrange is the SAME on all 3....Heresy IV, Forte IV and Cornwall IV.....BUT the midrange is a 'driver' and a 'horn'. If you had a machine shop or just some cool ingenuity, you could use the driver and MAKE YOUR OWN HORN....... It seems all 3 use the K-702 DRIVER. Cornwall / Forte use the same HORN, but i don't think the Heresy does. I'm less clear on the tweeter. It seems the Cornwall and Heresy use the SAME K-107 TI driver which is upgraded for all the new 'IV' series. But the Forte calls out a K-100 TI driver which I THINK is a misprint... The Forte also calls out a K-79T horn......for the tweeter. I don't KNOW if the horn is the same on the Cornwall to the Forte for mids... But the crossover is called out differently... Which accounts, in part for differences in REVIEWS......Which I generally dont' trust, anyway! The STEREOPHILE measured data for the Forte III shows big inductance (reactance) / impedance peaks in the bottom octave. Near PR (passive radiator) tuning which IMO may account for NOT being hugely 'tube friendly'....This is unchanged from the III to the IV......so I'll go with THAT as valid for both.... Know the reviewer. I see ONE guy say he could 'almost live with the Forte IV'....... My BRIEF audition was a huge success. I'll dismount one of my amps and take it UP to DSS and test MY amp with the Klipsch'....... In 1977, the dealer that I purchased my Allison:One’s from was also a Klipsch dealer. The big horns were there that day, but I was hooked on what I was listening to, and didn’t give them a serious listen and sadly I never did. since then I was so mesmerized already with what I was hearing that it was all over for me. Maybe one day I can afford myself the opportunity. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 31, 2023 12:45:58 GMT -5
That's about the way I feel about it. When I went to high-school our "electronics shop" teacher was a real fan of tube gear. He loved tubes and "didn't think solid state would ever be as good". This was in the early 1970's, when solid state was on the way in, and tube gear tended to end up "at the curb", or at the local garage sale. So I learned electronics and audio on tube gear... And I still think tube gear is fun to design or work on... I should also point out that the VAST majority of vintage tube gear was relatively simple - and built according to a few basic circuit concepts. This meant that you could service pretty well any tube preamp or amp without a schematic with just "the RCA tube guide". And this was far more important back then - when you couldn't just Google up a schematic if you wanted one. It is less true today - when a lot of modern tube gear has complicated computerized bias circuits and such. But a LOT of modern gear does still follow the basic circuitry that's been around since the beginning. However, all that said, I just plain don't especially like the way tube gear SOUNDS. You absolutely CAN design a modern tube preamp to be as neutral as a good solid state preamp. But it takes more effort, and costs more, to do so than to just plain build a good neutral solid state preamp. (So, to me, unless you like the pretty lights, it just doesn't make sense.) And, with power amps, the situation is even worse. A GOOD output transformer will cost you a lot of money... And the price of good tubes these days is downright absurd... And you STILL cannot design a tube power amp that is as neutral or low in distortion as a decent solid state design. (And, while some people LIKE the coloration tubes introduce, I really do not... ) And, yes, there were some really awful early solid state designs... BUT people nowadays forget that there was also a lot of equally awful tube gear... And, to be quite blunt, not all modern tube gear is good either... (Even excluding the fact that some people like "tube sound" some modern tube gear takes it to a rather bad sounding extreme.) So, yes... Tubes are cool (in their own way)... And I can understand how some people enjoy the way they sound... And they ARE fun to design with and work on (excluding the part about how it's gotten so expensive to do so nowadays)... But I'll pass... thanks... Incidentally, while tube power amps are expensive to design and build nowadays, it's NOT that hard or expensive to build a tube preamp. (Especially if you just want a "line stage", with some gain, and a Volume control, and you're willing to skip the tone controls.) This! www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5L-V-2i4BkWhile I don't always agree with reviews and it's easy to armchair critique, in this case, it seems tube amps can't control bass as much. At least in the affordable range. Not to suggest the best of the best can't. In many cases, solid state is still a great option. I had a ton of fun with my tube amps. When I was very young When I was very young, all they had were tube amps. (lol.) that being said, the transition to solid state was a revelation for me all the coolness, and POWER. after that the thought of going back never occurred to me. The impressions I were getting was that they were very accurate almost too much in a way just kind of weird with hearing absolutely nothing, except the sound of the music background noise of any kind. I totally get the appreciation people have for the tube amplifiers today. I’m simply not there. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2023 13:14:13 GMT -5
First? I've heard some stuff, just not 'epic' amounts over a huge spectrum. But one thing I think may be true? Tube amp with the appropriate speaker.....Meaning correct sensitivity for power and reactance measures SHOULD sound pretty much line on line with a SS amp driving what IT likes. A sealed box speaker of lower sensitivity since watts are Inexpensive and a good enough PS to deal with the POTENTIALLY wacky reactance curves.......I take it as a given that output transformers do not like certain types of reactance. Capacitive? Inductive? don't 'member! Is the difference Current Source VS Voltage Source? So? Each SYSTEM is to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. So many design elements to tweak! How much feedback? Global or by stage? For tube gear? Go with the vintage input / driver board or a somewhat newer design? Take advantage of modern circuit board materials and technology or go ALL Point-to-Point? The SS designer can manipulate BIAS levels and all sorts of options in that area. Grounding schemes are big for all amps..... I'm still tempted by the VTA ST series amps.......but I'm not certain that regardless of high sensitivity, that the Klipsch Forte IV is THE speaker for it..... And for TURNER? Review is of the Cornwall III......not the updated 'IV' model. But that doesnt make much of any difference to the bass / reflex circuit. You'll find this is NOT the best speaker for tubes. If it follows the pattern set by the FORTE III, for which I'll link some data......It really ISN'T the best speaker to be driven by tubes. The ONLY reason I'm still considering it is that I can LOW CUT the speaker above the point where it gets TOO wacky...... OR? Simply use a decent SS amp. Speaker STILL is about 95db sensitive which is about 10x HIGHER than my current panels....... My system power today WITH sub is about a KW. 2x200 per speaker (4 ohms) and another couple hundrd for the sub....or more? But with 125x2 (8ohms) AND the same 250 for the sub? WAY AHEAD in the power-to-sensitivity 'games'.......And I suspect will play a LOT louder, as if the neighbors don't want to be rid of me NOW! www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-forte-iii-loudspeaker-measurementsJust look at the overall impedance / reactance trace of the first graphic. I doubt tube gear appreciates that....... |
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2023 13:48:33 GMT -5
MAYBE?
The solution could be a SDFR....Single Driver Full Range....which skips the crossover.
LOTS of compromise here which means 'an acquired taste'........
Not for ME, either.....
Fostex and Lothar make drivers. Other companies, Tannoy?....make full systems.
This is the opposite end of the planet from 3 and 4 way systems, needing multiple-hundred watt amps.
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Post by 405x5 on Oct 31, 2023 14:29:00 GMT -5
“First? I've heard some stuff, just not 'epic' amounts over a huge spectrum. But one thing I think may be true? Tube amp with the appropriate speaker.....Meaning correct sensitivity for power and reactance measures SHOULD sound pretty much line on line with a SS amp driving what IT likes. A sealed box speaker of lower sensitivity since watts are Inexpensive and a good enough PS to deal with the POTENTIALLY wacky reactance curves.......I take it as a given that output transformers do not like certain types of reactance. Capacitive? Inductive? don't 'member! Is the difference Current Source VS Voltage Source?” my current (no pun intended) SS amp. Has a hook up option for the front three channels to be connected to a current source connection, rather than the solid-state voltage source. (picture below) my own priorities with the system being what they are I’ve given it very little thought to try and derive a tube like sound out of it. That being said, perhaps with the KLIPSCH it could make for an interesting study.  |
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2023 15:46:01 GMT -5
Took me a couple seconds with my MAGNIFIER to figure it out. Yes, Carver simulated current / voltage source with I think sticking some large wattage power resistor in one set of outputs.
Theoretically? You should be OK with modern low sensitivity box speakers, acoustic suspenders and such OR with old-school Big Box stuff.....
Bob was good with stuff like that......but EXCELLED at Naming. He really has a talent for naming stuff.......
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2023 15:56:38 GMT -5
ONE last thing> I looked up in error.....replacement parts, but once I saw what I had stumbled upon, took a closer look. Seems the K100Ti is a real part number. The replacement diaphragm goes to several tweeters including the K107 series and a few others........ And it is DIRT CHEAP. In fact, if Available? I'll bet the 3-driver and Passive set matching the ForteIV would run UNDER 500$ TOPS. Maybe less. Tweeter / Horn is <100. Could the mid be much more? That's a 300$ cushion for woofer and passive. I get it that they are well made....but not THAT well made. Stereophile finds cabinet resonance of low level......which probably won't matter given overall high sensitivity.....But STILL? How much is 15sq ft of a good Veneer WORTH? And looking at the disassembly pics? Not a LOT of bracing or deadening material. The MDF looks 'regular' not anything special. I've got some of it around HERE which cost a lot and is made of SAWDUST, not flakes / chips / whatever......and it takes 2 men to handle a 4x8, 1" sheet safely...... Makes me WONDER how they get 5-Large for a pair of 'em? Given modern tooling and proper toolset? I don't see how they have more than 800$ to 1000$ in a pair. Add for shipping....... Here is TWEETER and HORN for 78$. The K-107-Ti which this site calls out as correct for Forte IV....... reconingspeakers.com/products-page/klipsch-k-107-ti-tweeter-w-horn-1006894/ |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2023 16:57:09 GMT -5
First? I've heard some stuff, just not 'epic' amounts over a huge spectrum. But one thing I think may be true? Tube amp with the appropriate speaker.....Meaning correct sensitivity for power and reactance measures SHOULD sound pretty much line on line with a SS amp driving what IT likes. A sealed box speaker of lower sensitivity since watts are Inexpensive and a good enough PS to deal with the POTENTIALLY wacky reactance curves.......I take it as a given that output transformers do not like certain types of reactance. Capacitive? Inductive? don't 'member! Is the difference Current Source VS Voltage Source? So? Each SYSTEM is to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. So many design elements to tweak! How much feedback? Global or by stage? For tube gear? Go with the vintage input / driver board or a somewhat newer design? Take advantage of modern circuit board materials and technology or go ALL Point-to-Point? The SS designer can manipulate BIAS levels and all sorts of options in that area. Grounding schemes are big for all amps..... I'm still tempted by the VTA ST series amps.......but I'm not certain that regardless of high sensitivity, that the Klipsch Forte IV is THE speaker for it..... And for TURNER? Review is of the Cornwall III......not the updated 'IV' model. But that doesnt make much of any difference to the bass / reflex circuit. You'll find this is NOT the best speaker for tubes. If it follows the pattern set by the FORTE III, for which I'll link some data......It really ISN'T the best speaker to be driven by tubes. The ONLY reason I'm still considering it is that I can LOW CUT the speaker above the point where it gets TOO wacky...... OR? Simply use a decent SS amp. Speaker STILL is about 95db sensitive which is about 10x HIGHER than my current panels....... My system power today WITH sub is about a KW. 2x200 per speaker (4 ohms) and another couple hundrd for the sub....or more? But with 125x2 (8ohms) AND the same 250 for the sub? WAY AHEAD in the power-to-sensitivity 'games'.......And I suspect will play a LOT louder, as if the neighbors don't want to be rid of me NOW! www.stereophile.com/content/klipsch-forte-iii-loudspeaker-measurementsJust look at the overall impedance / reactance trace of the first graphic. I doubt tube gear appreciates that....... I am aware that it was the older version, but as far as I know, the compression tweeter and mid and crossover was upgraded. I think the woofer might be the same. Either way, it seems SS controls it better than tube amps. The review was on bass repose SS vs tube. In this day and age, I'd attempt the Schiitt AEGIR hybrid class A amp before an actual modern tube amp, but that's just me. Apparently, the first 10 watts are class A, and that should be more than enough for the Heritage line. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2023 18:30:11 GMT -5
Because it has the WRONG Electrical Characteristics for Tube. Too much reactance. Too high a impedance swing IN BAND..... That's what drives perceived bass.......at least in a SS V Tube scenario.
Some bass can be 'thin' if you have an amp (usually tube) with a Very Low damping factor working into a bass situation with a critically damped 'Q' of 0.7 (around that) which would originally LIKE to see an
amp with a very high DF....maybe over 200, but 50 to 100 would probably DO....
SS controls woofers which BENEFIT from such control much better than tubes.
But a tube amp SHOULD be pretty darn good working with a woofer not needing such control......
In this case? I'd replace 'control' with a reference to 'Damping Factor'.....
it is not one or the other which is 'better'. The COMBINATION is what counts......
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Post by selind40 on Oct 31, 2023 20:24:30 GMT -5
Running Forte III’s with new crossovers by Crites. Using a Carver M500-t that was refurbished by Nelion audio, along with a C-1 preamp also rebuilt with the Billy D mod…..my Klipsch Forte’s sound incredible….hearing things never heard before with, vinyl, cd and fm radio. They didn’t like my XPA-2 Gen 1 or Gen 3……sorry Emotiva, but they freakin rock with the Carver amp. I think the big money people call it synergy….or some crap.
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2023 21:27:46 GMT -5
only ONE minor disagreement, selind.
Doesnt' Necessarily take money. TIME is worth a lot in the search for stuff that goes together. And Yes......Synergy is a good word.....
I've had endless discussions about certain parts of this. Most people learn thru Mistakes......I sort of did.....and think I'm over most of THAT
part....But time implies lots of listening and NOT listening to either SalesGuys on commission or ridiculous reviews......KNOW your Reviewer!
My M400t was good for a LONG time.....and worked well with my origianl Magnepan MG-1 from maybe LATE 70s or early 80s.......
New crossover from Crites? I didn't see it, but maybe don't know exactly WHAT to look for! The revision 'IV' of the line is said to have
a steeper slope crossover. This is supported by some comments from Stereophile which did a retest but NO remeasure of the Forte IV....
If I were doing this project? I'd be TEMPTED.....after finding out everything about the crossover....slope? Frequency? Any attenuation?
To go with a MiniDSP and multiple amps. This is a BIG project for a 3-way......You could even dial in some time delay to get the impulse response
and THAN use some of the parametric to dial out a 'bump' or 'dip'.......Though be careful with dips, since every 3db DOUBLES amp power at that frequency.....
You wouldn't even need BIG amps.
ONE of the Bas-X A3 would do it PER speaker....140x3....maybe less all driven to redline? You'll NEVER get close to that output. You'll get kicked out of
your town at those levels.....
For the entire line......Cornwall, Forte and Heresy...all 'IV' revision, I'm trying to figure out both the mid / tweet Driver AND horn.....Appears they all get the same
mid, but I'm less certain about which Horn......Klipsh paperwork is not 100% forthcoming.....and the aftermarket parts guys haven't quite caught up yet.
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Post by selind40 on Oct 31, 2023 21:53:21 GMT -5
I also had the Forte’s hooked up to my Parasound Halo 2.1 integrated for a the time my Carver system was being refurbished…..it didn’t like the Parasound either, really harsh…bright….fatigue, whatever you call it. The Carver amp sounds the best, I also tried a B&K audio amp I had sitting around….was thinking tubes until you mentioned tubes might not be to great with Klipsch…I’m happy for now.
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Post by leonski on Oct 31, 2023 22:49:54 GMT -5
HMMMMM. I was going to pull a Parasound A23 from my system to take to the dealer to try with the Forte IV............
The first 'HINT' was 160x2 while the 'HINT2' is more powerful.........
backpanel similar to the P5 preamp...but of course my P5 has NO speaker outs.....
REAL test is YOU listening in your system / setup / room. You really don't know me from Adam, and I just render an opinion based my
my understanding of some the electrical issues.......Certainly NOT the last word on this......
That's why I will eventually take my A23 TO the dealer. If harsh / bright? I should know it right away......or fairly quickly, anyway.
This after test with what was connected my first go, which sounded FINE. I don't know that the Forte IV is THAT much different than the
III to call it 'all new'......drivers / crossover alterantion should NOT be a make or break thing......Better? or Worse? Just not off a cliff......
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Post by leonski on Nov 1, 2023 14:46:20 GMT -5
Another POSSIBLE amp for the very Highest Senstivity Speakers?
Amp Camp Amp. Used by Pass as a teaching tool, they are availble from DIY Audio for
<400$ the kit. A PAIR of 'em? One per Klipsch should be wonderful......
Single Ended Class A is a 'holy grail'' sort of configuraiton which some swear by...
Too bad that amp measures.....poorly.....in many regards......and at higher power
levels is probably audibly not suitable.
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Post by leonski on Nov 2, 2023 12:16:24 GMT -5
Just got info on optional Veneers. A site to view was recommended and I'll be sitting when I get pricing......
This is an $$$ option, I'm certain......But you'd think swapping grill cloth between either of the 2 options would be 'free'?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2024 20:54:56 GMT -5
Did you ever order them? I've been watching reviews and as great as the Forte IVs are, if I was buying my forever speakers, I'd consider the Cornwall IVs, but then again, I'd probably run without a sub. Sounds like the ported versions have some nice bass slam as is.
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