jbryngelson
Minor Hero
Healthy Tweaking is good for the Hobby
Posts: 23
|
Post by jbryngelson on Oct 28, 2023 8:59:37 GMT -5
I know this has been covered somewhat loosely, but I have a specific question.
I have a MBL Amplifier (9008) that is a true Differential Design when connected to a Balanced PRE via XLR.
Is the XMC going to present a proper differential balanced signal to the MBL so it operates its two different transformers for optimal performance?
|
|
|
|
Post by geebo on Oct 28, 2023 10:22:12 GMT -5
I know this has been covered somewhat loosely, but I have a specific question. I have a MBL Amplifier (9008) that is a true Differential Design when connected to a Balanced PRE via XLR. Is the XMC going to present a proper differential balanced signal to the MBL so it operates its two different transformers for optimal performance? Yes. From the manual:
Audiophile Sound QualityThe XMC-1 combines the latest audio processing modes and features with true audiophile sound
quality. The XMC-1’s Differential Reference mode delivers true balanced two channel audio
performance rivalling that of the finest analog preamps available today. From analog and digital
inputs to fully balanced outputs, the XMC-1 has a true audiophile quality signal path, which
includes high quality digital-to-analog converters (DACs), hardware asynchronous sample rate
converters (ASRCs), and a precision resistor analog ladder network volume control.
From Audioholics:
A Fully Balanced Audiophile Two-Channel Preamp
The front two channels are fully differential from input to output. Differential designs are more costly to implement since they double the circuitry but have the advantage of providing up to 6 dB lower noise floor and distortion reduction. Emotiva specification for the XLR input to XLR outputs with a S/N ratio: > 123 dB (A weighted). |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 28, 2023 14:45:57 GMT -5
…… Though it never could happen, it would be a blast to sneak into some of these “audiophile” homes and swap out the lauded XLR‘s for fundamental RCA connections, to see just how long it would take for anyone to notice the difference. Probably wouldn’t happen until somebody went back there to clean the cobwebs !
|
|
jbryngelson
Minor Hero
Healthy Tweaking is good for the Hobby
Posts: 23
|
Post by jbryngelson on Oct 29, 2023 16:31:47 GMT -5
Talking to Amplifier MFG - they state a NON-Differential Balanced signal from the XLR input will perform very differently in a fully differential amplifier. Two Transformers doing different things via non-diff or Single ended connection. Just saying.
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 29, 2023 16:38:03 GMT -5
Talking to Amplifier MFG - they state a NON-Differential Balanced signal from the XLR input will perform very differently in a fully differential amplifier. Two Transformers doing different things via non-diff or Single ended connection. Just saying. Yes, agreed however, different doesn’t necessarily equate to being AUDIBLY different or better, or worse for that matter. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 29, 2023 17:59:56 GMT -5
Talking to Amplifier MFG - they state a NON-Differential Balanced signal from the XLR input will perform very differently in a fully differential amplifier. Two Transformers doing different things via non-diff or Single ended connection. Just saying. A balanced signal is a differential signal. An unbalanced signal is a NON-Differential signal. A device may be balanced throughout its circuitry, like the RMC or XDA-3. Or the internal circuitry may be unbalanced with a balanced diff-amp on the input and/or output, like in the new Marantz AV 10 processor. Emotiva is using the best balanced circuitry techniques. Some others do it too. Using transformers to do the job is an archaic and expensive way to handle balanced inputs; or outputs. Using transformers makes magical ad copy for audiophoolery. Here is nice tutorial: www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-DoGrdr3Mc |
|
jbryngelson
Minor Hero
Healthy Tweaking is good for the Hobby
Posts: 23
|
Post by jbryngelson on Oct 30, 2023 9:45:25 GMT -5
Thanks PaulBe, good video from our friends at Emotiva.
|
|
|
|
Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 30, 2023 11:48:34 GMT -5
Thanks PaulBe, good video from our friends at Emotiva. It’s really never been ‘loosely covered’, the series the XMC-1 and current RMC/XMC models are part of, is written on the faceplate — “Differential Reference”. My first Emotiva product, the XDA-1 , was part of this series over 10 years ago. It’s something Emotiva has promoted for some time, Lonnie and others have explained it in detail over the years. Edit: The XPA-1 G1, 2, & L, and the current DR power amps, are also part of of the “Differential Reference” series (the new XDA-3 too). …… Though it never could happen, it would be a blast to sneak into some of these “audiophile” homes and swap out the lauded XLR‘s for fundamental RCA connections, to see just how long it would take for anyone to notice the difference. Probably wouldn’t happen until somebody went back there to clean the cobwebs ! XLRs were never about sounding better, and they’re not promoted as such, but rather they maintain the quality of the signal (and hence the sound), over a wider range of environments and distances. They also have a more positive and robust connector, which is less likely to disconnect or be damaged. So, in your gleeful experiment few would hear the difference (nor could they), but some systems might deteriorate, or become noisier. |
|
|
|
Post by audiosyndrome on Oct 30, 2023 13:07:55 GMT -5
And don’t forget, true balanced front to back minimizes the possibility of ground loops.
Russ
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 30, 2023 13:16:25 GMT -5
Thanks PaulBe, good video from our friends at Emotiva. It’s really never been ‘loosely covered’, the series the XMC-1 and current RMC/XMC models are part of, is written on the faceplate — “Differential Reference”. My first Emotiva product, the XDA-1 , was part of this series over 10 years ago. It’s something Emotiva has promoted for some time, Lonnie and others have explained it in detail over the years. Edit: The XPA-1 G1, 2, & L, and the current DR power amps, are also part of of the “Differential Reference” series (the new XDA-3 too). …… Though it never could happen, it would be a blast to sneak into some of these “audiophile” homes and swap out the lauded XLR‘s for fundamental RCA connections, to see just how long it would take for anyone to notice the difference. Probably wouldn’t happen until somebody went back there to clean the cobwebs ! XLRs were never about sounding better, and they’re not promoted as such, but rather they maintain the quality of the signal (and hence the sound), over a wider range of environments and distances. They also have a more positive and robust connector, which is less likely to disconnect or be damaged. So, in your gleeful experiment few would hear the difference (nor could they), but some systems might deteriorate, or become noisier. In 55 years of employing, reasonable quality RCA connectors, no such thing has ever happened……EVER. (in my experience, at least) |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 30, 2023 14:00:05 GMT -5
It’s really never been ‘loosely covered’, the series the XMC-1 and current RMC/XMC models are part of, is written on the faceplate — “Differential Reference”. My first Emotiva product, the XDA-1 , was part of this series over 10 years ago. It’s something Emotiva has promoted for some time, Lonnie and others have explained it in detail over the years. Edit: The XPA-1 G1, 2, & L, and the current DR power amps, are also part of of the “Differential Reference” series (the new XDA-3 too). XLRs were never about sounding better, and they’re not promoted as such, but rather they maintain the quality of the signal (and hence the sound), over a wider range of environments and distances. They also have a more positive and robust connector, which is less likely to disconnect or be damaged. So, in your gleeful experiment few would hear the difference (nor could they), but some systems might deteriorate, or become noisier. In 55 years of employing, reasonable quality RCA connectors, no such thing has ever happened……EVER. (in my experience, at least) The main superiority with an XLR is that the ground pin connects first and disconnects last. You can connect and disconnect hot signals without large noises or potential equipment damage. It is also a more robust connection. In my 55 years of audio, professionally and as a consumer, I have had many RCA failures and few XLR failures. With equivalent quality equipment, balanced audio is always superior to unbalanced audio. Balanced audio is a well established professional standard that needs no defense. I'm happy that almost all of hi-end consumer audio has deferred to the use of balanced audio and XLR connectors. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 30, 2023 14:39:52 GMT -5
In 55 years of employing, reasonable quality RCA connectors, no such thing has ever happened……EVER. (in my experience, at least) “The main superiority with an XLR is that the ground pin connects first and disconnects last. You can connect and disconnect hot signals without large noises or potential equipment damage.” there are plenty of professional situations where you have to work live, but at home nothing beats the good old off switch. No one should be connecting or disconnecting cables at home without shutting the thing off first just common sense. “It is also a more robust connection. In my 55 years of audio, professionally and as a consumer, I have had many RCA failures and few XLR failures.” sounds like somethings. amiss there…. “Balanced audio is a well established professional standard that needs no defense.” or perhaps….. not needed at all! “I'm happy that almost all of hi-end consumer audio has deferred to the use of balanced audio and XLR connectors.” You don’t know that. they are there yes but there are no stats that determine who’s doing what regarding the hook ups. My last two high-end processes going back to 2001. We’re all loaded up with XLR accommodation. Including the XMC1. If If I added them all up well, that’s a heck of a lot of empty slots I’ve got RCA they go back to 1988 that were high-quality then and in brand new condition now still in use. All dead quiet just like a church mouse. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 30, 2023 14:59:34 GMT -5
“The main superiority with an XLR is that the ground pin connects first and disconnects last. You can connect and disconnect hot signals without large noises or potential equipment damage.” there are plenty of professional situations where you have to work live, but at home nothing beats the good old off switch. No one should be connecting or disconnecting cables at home without shutting the thing off first just common sense. “It is also a more robust connection. In my 55 years of audio, professionally and as a consumer, I have had many RCA failures and few XLR failures.” sounds like somethings. amiss there…. “Balanced audio is a well established professional standard that needs no defense.” or perhaps….. not needed at all! “I'm happy that almost all of hi-end consumer audio has deferred to the use of balanced audio and XLR connectors.” You don’t know that. they are there yes but there are no stats that determine who’s doing what regarding the hook ups. My last two high-end processes going back to 2001. We’re all loaded up with XLR accommodation. Including the XMC1. If If I added them all up well, that’s a heck of a lot of empty slots I’ve got RCA they go back to 1988 that were high-quality then and in brand new condition now still in use. All dead quiet just like a church mouse. I don't care what connectors or connections you use. Facts don't care how much denial or how many exclamation points you use. Enjoy your RCAs. Enjoy life. Continue this argument without me. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 30, 2023 15:12:34 GMT -5
I don't care what connectors or connections you use. Facts don't care how much denial or how many exclamation points you use. Enjoy your RCAs. Enjoy life. Continue this argument without me. Oh no, no arguments here just a healthy exchange of ideas so as far as I’m concerned. Sorry if you feel that way
Years ago a guy I worked with who was a lot wiser than myself told me that an argument means something good is going on! |
|
|
|
Post by audiosyndrome on Oct 30, 2023 15:41:48 GMT -5
Definitely not a healthy exchange. Your one sided opinion is beating a dead horse. Plenty of reasons given why XLR might best RCA but you don’t care, you’re going to use RCAs regardless.
So enjoy your system but you’ve said enough (really nothing of value) in this thread.
Russ
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 30, 2023 16:28:15 GMT -5
Definitely not a healthy exchange. Your one sided opinion is beating a dead horse. Plenty of reasons given why XLR might best RCA but you don’t care, you’re going to use RCAs regardless. So enjoy your system but you’ve said enough (really nothing of value) in this thread. Russ Where are you getting this?? I have XLR in my system…… Simply not all XLR. They are quite important in my system where I use them. Lots of good stuff in this thread not sure where you’re getting that from either… |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Oct 30, 2023 16:30:36 GMT -5
“So enjoy your system but you’ve said enough” Russ Really…Russ sorry…somewhere along the way I missed that you are the moderator. |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,275
|
Post by KeithL on Oct 31, 2023 11:35:02 GMT -5
I've heard of MBL Amplifiers before... but never looked into their claims. Let me start by saying: 1. I've never heard their amplifiers in person. 2. They seem to get good reviews and I don't doubt that they sound very nice and work well. HOWEVER... When I tried to read about their "dual transformers"... while their description made sense, for the most part, there were a few "odd bits"... As far as I can tell they have dual POWER SUPPLY transformers.... each with its own power cable. This makes sense in that you can connect both, to two separate circuits, get more current through the power supply... This would "enable it to charge or recharge the POWER SUPPLY capacitors more quickly". And, by lowering the impedance of the power supply, could indeed change the sound of the amplifier (at least slightly). (And, of course, if you only have one circuit handy, one circuit is presumably adequate for normal use.) (There seems to be some odd wording in their description that makes it seem somewhat confusing.) As far as I can determine that amplifier also ALSO has a specific, and somewhat unusual, input requirement. It can either be run as a stereo amplifier using a pair of unbalanced input connections... Or it can be run as a fully balanced fully differential monoblock - and, in order to do that, it requires "a real balanced input source". (It doesn't have an internal unbalanced-to-balanced converter.) And, yes, the balanced outputs on the XMC-1 are REAL BALANCED OUTPUTS and will fulfill that requirement.
(On any of our gear that has balanced outputs those outputs are "real balanced outputs".) (But, from what they've described, that really has nothing to do with the dual-transformer "option", which is really basically a power-supply feature.) I know this has been covered somewhat loosely, but I have a specific question. I have a MBL Amplifier (9008) that is a true Differential Design when connected to a Balanced PRE via XLR. Is the XMC going to present a proper differential balanced signal to the MBL so it operates its two different transformers for optimal performance? |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Oct 31, 2023 12:04:17 GMT -5
I've heard of MBL Amplifiers before... but never looked into their claims. Let me start by saying: 1. I've never heard their amplifiers in person. 2. They seem to get good reviews and I don't doubt that they sound very nice and work well. HOWEVER... When I tried to read about their "dual transformers"... while their description made sense, for the most part, there were a few "odd bits"... As far as I can tell they have dual POWER SUPPLY transformers.... each with its own power cable. This makes sense in that you can connect both, to two separate circuits, get more current through the power supply... This would "enable it to charge or recharge the POWER SUPPLY capacitors more quickly". And, by lowering the impedance of the power supply, could indeed change the sound of the amplifier (at least slightly). (And, of course, if you only have one circuit handy, one circuit is presumably adequate for normal use.) (There seems to be some odd wording in their description that makes it seem somewhat confusing.) As far as I can determine that amplifier also ALSO has a specific, and somewhat unusual, input requirement. It can either be run as a stereo amplifier using a pair of unbalanced input connections... Or it can be run as a fully balanced fully differential monoblock - and, in order to do that, it requires "a real balanced input source". (It doesn't have an internal unbalanced-to-balanced converter.) And, yes, the balanced outputs on the XMC-1 are REAL BALANCED OUTPUTS and will fulfill that requirement.
(On any of our gear that has balanced outputs those outputs are "real balanced outputs".) (But, from what they've described, that really has nothing to do with the dual-transformer "option", which is really basically a power-supply feature.) I know this has been covered somewhat loosely, but I have a specific question. I have a MBL Amplifier (9008) that is a true Differential Design when connected to a Balanced PRE via XLR. Is the XMC going to present a proper differential balanced signal to the MBL so it operates its two different transformers for optimal performance? This explains a lot. I was thinking "Why on earth is this company using input transformers?". I didn't investigate the MBL amp any further after I saw the price tag. We can probably scratch the rest of the discussion here and just leave your response. |
|
jbryngelson
Minor Hero
Healthy Tweaking is good for the Hobby
Posts: 23
|
Post by jbryngelson on Nov 6, 2023 10:06:43 GMT -5
HOWEVER... When I tried to read about their "dual transformers"... while their description made sense, for the most part, there were a few "odd bits"... As far as I can tell they have dual POWER SUPPLY transformers.... each with its own power cable. This makes sense in that you can connect both, to two separate circuits, get more current through the power supply... This would "enable it to charge or recharge the POWER SUPPLY capacitors more quickly". And, by lowering the impedance of the power supply, could indeed change the sound of the amplifier (at least slightly). (And, of course, if you only have one circuit handy, one circuit is presumably adequate for normal use.) (There seems to be some odd wording in their description that makes it seem somewhat confusing.) As far as I can determine that amplifier also ALSO has a specific, and somewhat unusual, input requirement. It can either be run as a stereo amplifier using a pair of unbalanced input connections... Or it can be run as a fully balanced fully differential monoblock - and, in order to do that, it requires "a real balanced input source". (It doesn't have an internal unbalanced-to-balanced converter.) And, yes, the balanced outputs on the XMC-1 are REAL BALANCED OUTPUTS and will fulfill that requirement.
(On any of our gear that has balanced outputs those outputs are "real balanced outputs".) (But, from what they've described, that really has nothing to do with the dual-transformer "option", which is really basically a power-supply feature.) Here is a very complete review describing the need for differential balancing with this amp : Positive Feedback Issue 59.
Brief quote: One 9008A can be used as a stereo amp with single-ended interconnects. However, the manufacturer strongly recommends you use it as a monoblock, with balanced interconnect cables and a balanced input source. The amp's design is differential balanced: there are two amps inside each monoblock, one for the ON phase; the other for the OFF phase. When used in balanced mono mode, it is a true differential amp. Stereo connection is only available in single-ended mode, where one amp sees the left channel's input… same for the right channel. |
|
