|
|
Post by davidl81 on Dec 28, 2023 14:53:15 GMT -5
You will hear 0 difference in your surrounds with an AVR or external amps.
|
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Dec 28, 2023 14:56:03 GMT -5
I have a yamaha receiver and utilize an Emotiva XPA 3 gen 1 for the LCR. I had left and right surrounds and rear surrounds that I let the Yamaha amp power. Is there any reason to get an external amp for the 4 surround speakers? I know that they do not use as much power, and I am not playing at reference levels lol. Just wondering if I am missing out some how. The question underscores my biggest complaint about the object based audio system….all of the individual “channel” power demands for who knows what and how much. You’re not going to get answers from those that design where those sounds go…just have to give it a best guess….no thank you. That being said, my Atmos collection that was sold to me whether I wanted it or not sound fantastic lossless non ATMOS state when played back in conventional 5 or 7.ever how many and you can bet the farm that’s how most end users end up hearing them…..(just sayin). Honestly I think Emotiva has a great solution to the power concern needs of the Atmos channels on the XPA amps using the stereo boards. I have 11 channels (7.4.2) and I have a DR-2 for the L/R and the XPA-9 for the other channels. I utilize the stereo modules for the ceiling speakers. And frankly it’s overkill. |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Dec 28, 2023 16:13:05 GMT -5
The question underscores my biggest complaint about the object based audio system….all of the individual “channel” power demands for who knows what and how much. You’re not going to get answers from those that design where those sounds go…just have to give it a best guess….no thank you. That being said, my Atmos collection that was sold to me whether I wanted it or not sound fantastic lossless non ATMOS state when played back in conventional 5 or 7.ever how many and you can bet the farm that’s how most end users end up hearing them…..(just sayin). Honestly I think Emotiva has a great solution to the power concern needs of the Atmos channels on the XPA amps using the stereo boards. I have 11 channels (7.4.2) and I have a DR-2 for the L/R and the XPA-9 for the other channels. I utilize the stereo modules for the ceiling speakers. And frankly it’s overkill. That’s a fine way to handle it David. Clearly once you’ve made the commitment, you have to come up with the best solution for your system. Whatever that may be. Too much for me too many sour grapes from having the introduction of Atmos collide with the introduction of the Emotiva XMC1. I believe I once referred to it as a Greek tragedy that being said I’m very happy with what I’ve got in 5.1 of course there are 5.1 systems and then…… There are 5.1 systems lol if you know what I mean! |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,274
|
Post by KeithL on Dec 28, 2023 16:19:16 GMT -5
You bring up an interesting point... and I suspect that the answer is going to change... to a point... gradually. If you ask Dolby, as far as they're concerned, all of the channels should be considered to be more or less equal. After all, an object can be placed anywhere, and there are no restrictions on NOT putting loud objects above you. (And, when that alien spaceship crashes on top of you, it will probably be loud, and quite possibly start being loud while it's above you.) However, in real life, most people, and especially those interested in audio, probably have at least big speakers in front, and ARE NOT going to hang towers on their ceiling. (And then you've got the tricky consideration that most ceiling speakers are both less efficient and rated for less maximum power.) And, on top of all that, you've got to assume that mixing engineers are going to mix, at least to some degree, to what they expect their audience to have. (They'd be silly to put a lot of loud important stuff up on top KNOWING that, on most people's home systems, it's either going to play too quietly or maybe clip.) My guess is that "it will all shake out over time"... So, for example, if I were doing the mixing, I might put enough stuff up top to enable people to feel like they're getting good use of those height speakers... BUT, I would try to limit that to putting things overhead that could seem loud, but would not ask for a massive amount of power... And, even beyond that, I would be sort of careful to avoid long runs of loud sound overhead, where it might be a problem for the power handling on same smaller ceiling speakers... I'm sure that the more experienced engineers are already using all sorts of tricks to optimize the experience for the most listeners. For example... even though Bass Management is going to automatically route the real low frequencies to the sub... I could still optimize an "explosion in the sky"... by boosting the sharp-sounding harmonics in the height channels... and pushing more of the lower harmonics into the main channels. All you'll hear is stuff whizzing around... but I can still manipulate which channels end up using and needing the most power... at least to a degree. It's also somewhat unclear at this point how much effort is actually being spent optimizing "the home mix" to sound good on "a typical home system". (It seems obvious that theaters, which often do have similar big speakers on the walls and ceiling, would benefit from a different mix than even a big home-theater system.) I have a yamaha receiver and utilize an Emotiva XPA 3 gen 1 for the LCR. I had left and right surrounds and rear surrounds that I let the Yamaha amp power. Is there any reason to get an external amp for the 4 surround speakers? I know that they do not use as much power, and I am not playing at reference levels lol. Just wondering if I am missing out some how. The question underscores my biggest complaint about the object based audio system….all of the individual “channel” power demands for who knows what and how much. You’re not going to get answers from those that design where those sounds go…just have to give it a best guess….no thank you. That being said, my Atmos collection that was sold to me whether I wanted it or not sound fantastic lossless non ATMOS state when played back in conventional 5 or 7.ever how many and you can bet the farm that’s how most end users end up hearing them…..(just sayin). |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 28, 2023 20:17:31 GMT -5
I've known persons with recording studios.
One of 'em? Had 2 sets of speakers. One set was a good speaker you'd be proud to own in you home.
Other set was like 6x9 'ovals' which were used for 'automotive mix'......This was 3 or 4 decades ago......
So way before multi-channel took off.....
Speakers in Question? (I just remembered!) They were TANNOY.....The home speakers were large, 3-way....or more.
My brother had a studio and used JBL 4311.....a 12" 3-way nearly identical to the L-100.....still in production!
I ALSO used a 12" 3-way but from RSL, a Southern California builder with as many as 6 storefronts.....As it turns out,
my RSL 3600 Studio Monitors ALSO had limited (mainly to SoCal) studio penetration And were used in some
record stores. I saw a huge setup in the Tower Records on Sunset in LaLa Land.....5 or so pair, wall mounted.
|
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Dec 28, 2023 20:42:42 GMT -5
I've known persons with recording studios. One of 'em? Had 2 sets of speakers. One set was a good speaker you'd be proud to own in you home. Other set was like 6x9 'ovals' which were used for 'automotive mix'......This was 3 or 4 decades ago...... So way before multi-channel took off..... OK, but I don’t get this…… The main speakers in my living room I was proud to have and I think anyone would have. Comparable to the B&W’s in many recording studios. The 6 x 9 oval were in the rear deck of my 65 Bonneville, with a nice outboard power amp. to give them a kick in the ass |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2023 0:30:47 GMT -5
I've known persons with recording studios. One of 'em? Had 2 sets of speakers. One set was a good speaker you'd be proud to own in you home. Other set was like 6x9 'ovals' which were used for 'automotive mix'......This was 3 or 4 decades ago...... So way before multi-channel took off..... OK, but I don’t get this…… The main speakers in my living room I was proud to have and I think anyone would have. Comparable to the B&W’s in many recording studios. The 6 x 9 oval were in the rear deck of my 65 Bonneville, with a nice outboard power amp. to give them a kick in the ass 405? Just as a personal reference point? I bought one of the first gen CD players. An FD1000 from Magnevox, but really a 4x oversample Philips player......REALLY nice. I made a bunch of Cassettes and showed 'em around. EVERYONE without exception was gobsmacked. NO exceptions. And I 'sold' several players......But the real killer was the kid next door who had spent 700$ or 800$ on a 'kick ass' car stereo. I thought he was going to shoot himself when he heard MY cassette in MY HONDA which had 4" in-door speakers and MAYBE 3 or 4 watts total output power. It just sounded THAT much better. CD v Cassette was such a game changer it is no wonder cassettes are swap-meet items with few takers.....But my CD Copies on TDK SaX tape were superb..... So it is no surprise to me that (like keith indicated) different mixes were done with different speakers. |
|
|
|
Post by PaulBe on Dec 29, 2023 7:28:01 GMT -5
|
|
cawgijoe
Emo VIPs 
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." - Yogi Berra
Posts: 5,035
Member is Online
|
Post by cawgijoe on Dec 29, 2023 8:40:46 GMT -5
I have a yamaha receiver and utilize an Emotiva XPA 3 gen 1 for the LCR. I had left and right surrounds and rear surrounds that I let the Yamaha amp power. Is there any reason to get an external amp for the 4 surround speakers? I know that they do not use as much power, and I am not playing at reference levels lol. Just wondering if I am missing out some how. Consider this. By using all external amps to drive your speakers you can turn OFF the amps in the Receiver (at least you can with Denon and Marantz), this in turn will allow your receiver to run much cooler. Right now I am running with my current receiver a Denon X4700H, the ATMOS speakers the way you describe, using the Receiver to drive them. But with my next Receiver, I am going to purchase a second BasX A4 driving my height and surround speakers, then will turn off internal amps in my new Marantz Cinema 50. Between disabling the Receiver Amps and my AC Infinity coolers, my hope is everything runs much cooler. We all know "heat" kills. Just my opinion. Intersting that you can now turn the amps off with modern receivers...the last Pioneer Elite and Denon I owned, you could not do that. The amps remained on even though they were not "running" when connected to an outboard amp. But, it's been quite a while since I have used a receiver for surround. |
|
|
|
Post by red71rum on Dec 29, 2023 13:50:17 GMT -5
I have a yamaha receiver and utilize an Emotiva XPA 3 gen 1 for the LCR. I had left and right surrounds and rear surrounds that I let the Yamaha amp power. Is there any reason to get an external amp for the 4 surround speakers? I know that they do not use as much power, and I am not playing at reference levels lol. Just wondering if I am missing out some how. Consider this. By using all external amps to drive your speakers you can turn OFF the amps in the Receiver (at least you can with Denon and Marantz), this in turn will allow your receiver to run much cooler. Right now I am running with my current receiver a Denon X4700H, the ATMOS speakers the way you describe, using the Receiver to drive them. But with my next Receiver, I am going to purchase a second BasX A4 driving my height and surround speakers, then will turn off internal amps in my new Marantz Cinema 50. Between disabling the Receiver Amps and my AC Infinity coolers, my hope is everything runs much cooler. We all know "heat" kills. Just my opinion. My receiver does not allow for the amps to be turned off, and yes heat can kill components. None of my stuff is stacked on each other or in closed cabinet. |
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,274
|
Post by KeithL on Dec 29, 2023 15:39:24 GMT -5
I would add that, while this is true, it's not always just that simple. Yes, some modern receivers allow you to actually disable to power going to their amplifiers. However, how much difference this actually makes depends on a whole bunch of different things. For example many amplifiers draw enough idle current that they generate significant heat even with no speakers attached. And, for those, actually disabling the amplifiers will allow that receiver to run significantly cooler. But others may generate such little heat while idling that you literally cannot tell they're even running. So you may get them to run quite cool simply by not attaching speakers to the channels you don't need. And, with those, you really don't gain much by "totally disabling them". And some modern Class-D amplifiers actually drop into a sort of low power standby mode on their own when they are idling. Consider this. By using all external amps to drive your speakers you can turn OFF the amps in the Receiver (at least you can with Denon and Marantz), this in turn will allow your receiver to run much cooler. Right now I am running with my current receiver a Denon X4700H, the ATMOS speakers the way you describe, using the Receiver to drive them. But with my next Receiver, I am going to purchase a second BasX A4 driving my height and surround speakers, then will turn off internal amps in my new Marantz Cinema 50. Between disabling the Receiver Amps and my AC Infinity coolers, my hope is everything runs much cooler. We all know "heat" kills. Just my opinion. Intersting that you can now turn the amps off with modern receivers...the last Pioneer Elite and Denon I owned, you could not do that. The amps remained on even though they were not "running" when connected to an outboard amp. But, it's been quite a while since I have used a receiver for surround. |
|
|
|
Post by gus4emo on Dec 29, 2023 19:18:31 GMT -5
I have a yamaha receiver and utilize an Emotiva XPA 3 gen 1 for the LCR. I had left and right surrounds and rear surrounds that I let the Yamaha amp power. Is there any reason to get an external amp for the 4 surround speakers? I know that they do not use as much power, and I am not playing at reference levels lol. Just wondering if I am missing out some how. Consider this. By using all external amps to drive your speakers you can turn OFF the amps in the Receiver (at least you can with Denon and Marantz), this in turn will allow your receiver to run much cooler. Right now I am running with my current receiver a Denon X4700H, the ATMOS speakers the way you describe, using the Receiver to drive them. But with my next Receiver, I am going to purchase a second BasX A4 driving my height and surround speakers, then will turn off internal amps in my new Marantz Cinema 50. Between disabling the Receiver Amps and my AC Infinity coolers, my hope is everything runs much cooler. We all know "heat" kills. Just my opinion. Agreed! |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 29, 2023 19:49:19 GMT -5
For GOOD MEASURE? Plug your receiver into a Kill-A-Watt and measure power just 'on'. Than disable the various amps and measure again......
I suspect a surprise with how LITTLE difference it makes. Now? IF you were to load the amps and go to say.....20% power? You'd see a large difference.
ALL power ends up as heat. Speakers, for example, are rarely above maybe 4% efficient. The Remainder is heat. Hot voice coils eventually warm the speakers
interior. But since a speaker drawing 20 watts would be a LOT? About 19 watts being turned into heat. That's actually quite a bit, considering you may be dealing
with multiple channels....
The largest 'savings' is from amp OFF to drawing power for a load. Without a load? Savings is minimal. I'd love to see some MEASUREMENTS......
Than add in POWER SUPPLY and OUTPUT device efficiency ratings in the receiver, and you'll see yet more power going up into heat.....For those of you who are going to
chime in with 'D' Amp and SWPS efficiency? Keep in mind that the high efficiency of D amps is mostly mythical, happening at the higher power end of its output....
And while switchers ARE pretty good? It's a ho-hum value, considering the entire chain from beginning to end is at best a couple % efficient......or less......
|
|
|
|
Post by copperband on Dec 29, 2023 21:58:46 GMT -5
I have a yamaha receiver and utilize an Emotiva XPA 3 gen 1 for the LCR. I had left and right surrounds and rear surrounds that I let the Yamaha amp power. Is there any reason to get an external amp for the 4 surround speakers? I know that they do not use as much power, and I am not playing at reference levels lol. Just wondering if I am missing out some how. Consider this. By using all external amps to drive your speakers you can turn OFF the amps in the Receiver (at least you can with Denon and Marantz), this in turn will allow your receiver to run much cooler. Right now I am running with my current receiver a Denon X4700H, the ATMOS speakers the way you describe, using the Receiver to drive them. But with my next Receiver, I am going to purchase a second BasX A4 driving my height and surround speakers, then will turn off internal amps in my new Marantz Cinema 50. Between disabling the Receiver Amps and my AC Infinity coolers, my hope is everything runs much cooler. We all know "heat" kills. Just my opinion. I have Marantz SR 8012 to run all 11 channels for a couple of years. This receiver is extremely hot(well known) after a couple of hours! For the same reason as the original owner of this post, I moved my XPA-5 from another room to power my LCR and front surrounds. I hear better sound so I keep the XPA-5 and let the receiver to run the rest of the 6 channels(2 rear surrounds & 4 heights), but the receiver is still very hot? By the way, if I use another external amp to power my other 6 channels, how do I turn off the amp section of the SR 8012? |
|
|
|
Post by leonski on Dec 30, 2023 1:18:47 GMT -5
copper?
this is something you can TEST.
I suspect power draw with NO Speakers attached is minimal.....and may go up as you call on the PREAMP. All those bewildering settings.
Turn it ON, with NOTHING playing and come back in 20 minutes....than in another 20. It won't get ANY hotter until you 'ask' it to do something.
FEEL AROUND for the 'hot spot'......
If you are not drawing any amp power? Caps will charge within a second or so of turning 'on' the amp. But no current will flow thru the output devices.
You will have 'bias' applied but that is also minimal current. PS caps will Recharge at the 'leakage' rate.....slowly. Don't forget that Power is Volts X Amps.
If your PS is stable at say.....50 volts with NO current flow.....? That's also NO power. Watts is heat....
I'd run some other tests. WHERE does the receiver heat up? Can you see where the PS is internally? You may find a 'hot spot' which is over the PS, but
not over the amp heat sinks......This is about as good as it'll get..
Turning 'off' the amps is a nearly-useless feature.
Get a KILL-A-WATT meter. I haven't looks, but maybe 30$ these days.....
|
|
