Multiple cheap subs vs. one “good” one?

[Boomzilla]

In favor of one good sub:

Lower distortion
Better bass extension
Less floor space required

In favor of multiple cheap subs:

Smoother room response
Lower cost

My initial thoughts are that linearity may not matter too much since DSP will flatten response anyway. If you’re not worried about distortion, response can be slightly extended with equalization (but only slightly). With meticulous attention to CraigsList, sometimes good subs can be had economically….

[405x5]

Very delighted to see a thread started like this.

I prefer to focus on the Physics of the thing as opposed to the Financial aspect.

The original Theory on having one subwoofer was based on those lower frequencies being much harder for the human ear to ascertain as to their location as opposed to the high frequencies.

[PaulBe]

Multiple - at least x2 - is good
Multiple good quality is better

Single good quality sub is OK, but a single sub is Not optimal, when subs are used.

The benefits of multi-sub is well established, and is not just an opinion.  I use 2 subs with good effect. The 'Law of Diminishing Returns' stops me from using more than 2 subs.

IMO - With cheaper more limited sub systems - Better to accept less infrasonic bass, and keep distortion and power requirements lower, than to EQ for deeper bass. Use a system within its range.

[405x5]

One sub or multiple subs?

That determination can only be made properly on an individual basis, of course meaning going from one person‘s installation to the next.

Maybe 4 subwoofers is the way to go…… Maybe one or two.
You can’t know that without determining the first two primary considerations on any individual installation.

First thing to consider is the low frequency response of the existing speakers that a subwoofer installation is being added to. That’s a huge variable, which is why these discussions about subwoofers do more to drive me crazy than anything else.


You may have Main, loudspeakers that reach so low, that a subwoofer is barely needed, but that doesn’t take into account explosions and other home theater sound effects that a conventional woofer wasn’t built to handle, but most of the time of subwoofer is.

[Boomzilla]

Factoids affecting my decision:

1. Whether listening to music or movies, we do not listen at loud volumes. Low to mid 80’s of decibels are typical for us.

2. Infrasonic frequency response is not desired. I like it OK, but my wife absolutely hates it, so there’s no reason to buy (highly expensive) frequency response that we won’t want or use.

3. Having owned low-distortion subwoofers from multiple “high end” manufacturers and other “high distortion” models from “mass market” manufacturers such as JBL and Klipsch, I’ve not heard a great deal of difference (to my ears in my room). Note (importantly) that all subs were run at low volumes and with DSP correction).

4. The main two things we want from subwoofer(s) are deeper extension from our stand-mounted bookshelf speakers and better impact from movies. We’ve previously tried true R/L subs with satellites run full-range as well as mono subwoofer(s) run via the bass management of the processor. Both implementations provided acceptable results with neither option seeming audibly superior.

5. Cost is not the significant factor in our decision. We would, however, like to use our Emotiva Virtual Copper subwoofer transmitter/receiver pair so we need not run long interconnects from the centrally-located electronics to the subwoofer(s).

6. The major thing I want in the subwoofer is absence of overhang. When a note stops, I want the sub to stop. That said , I also want realistic decay from drums and bass instruments. Subs that have a highly peaked response for maximum output resonate too much for my taste.

May be more information than you really wanted…. In summary, I’m thinking that a high-quality “midrange” sub such as one from SVS or Hsu research might fit our needs? I don’t think we need Martin-Logan or others in that price range. Since we don’t need high output, a 10 or 12” should be more than sufficient?

Thanks- Boom

[foggy1956]

Mar 18, 2024 12:44:39 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Factoids affecting my decision:

1. Whether listening to music or movies, we do not listen at loud volumes. Low to mid 80’s of decibels are typical for us.

2. Infrasonic frequency response is not desired. I like it OK, but my wife absolutely hates it, so there’s no reason to buy (highly expensive) frequency response that we won’t want or use.

3. Having owned low-distortion subwoofers from multiple “high end” manufacturers and other “high distortion” models from “mass market” manufacturers such as JBL and Klipsch, I’ve not heard a great deal of difference (to my ears in my room). Note (importantly) that all subs were run at low volumes and with DSP correction).

4. The main two things we want from subwoofer(s) are deeper extension from our stand-mounted bookshelf speakers and better impact from movies. We’ve previously tried true R/L subs with satellites run full-range as well as mono subwoofer(s) run via the bass management of the processor. Both implementations provided acceptable results with neither option seeming audibly superior.

5. Cost is not the significant factor in our decision. We would, however, like to use our Emotiva Virtual Copper subwoofer transmitter/receiver pair so we need not run long interconnects from the centrally-located electronics to the subwoofer(s).

6. The major thing I want in the subwoofer is absence of overhang. When a note stops, I want the sub to stop. That said , I also want realistic decay from drums and bass instruments. Subs that have a highly peaked response for maximum output resonate too much for my taste.

May be more information than you really wanted…. In summary, I’m thinking that a high-quality “midrange” sub such as one from SVS or Hsu research might fit our needs? I don’t think we need Martin-Logan or others in that price range. Since we don’t need high output, a 10 or 12” should be more than sufficient?

Thanks- Boom

Are the low to mid 80s baseline or volume peaks?

[ttocs]

Mar 18, 2024 12:44:39 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Factoids affecting my decision:
4. The main two things we want from subwoofer(s) are deeper extension from our stand-mounted bookshelf speakers and better impact from movies. We’ve previously tried true R/L subs with satellites run full-range as well as mono subwoofer(s) run via the bass management of the processor. Both implementations provided acceptable results with neither option seeming audibly superior.

5. Cost is not the significant factor in our decision. We would, however, like to use our Emotiva Virtual Copper subwoofer transmitter/receiver pair so we need not run long interconnects from the centrally-located electronics to the subwoofer(s).

6. The major thing I want in the subwoofer is absence of overhang. When a note stops, I want the sub to stop. That said , I also want realistic decay from drums and bass instruments. Subs that have a highly peaked response for maximum output resonate too much for my taste.

[7.] May be more information than you really wanted…. In summary, I’m thinking that a high-quality “midrange” sub such as one from SVS or Hsu research might fit our needs? I don’t think we need Martin-Logan or others in that price range. Since we don’t need high output, a 10 or 12” should be more than sufficient?

Thanks- Boom

4. Multiple smaller subs of modest size can easily achieve good impulse along with decent low end response. What low end response range are you looking for? 28Hz is probably a good target and is achievable with multiple 10" subs. Two subs of that size, of modest cost, are probably not going to satisfy #6, so expect to need more.

5. I'm a big fan of VSUB by Emotiva! I have a lot of them.

6. Multiple subs running at lower output than design expectation, this is what can make cheap subs work for what you are wanting. I don't have a formula for such things, but there has got to be a sweet spot for how many cheap subs equal a low number of expensive subs in a small room at low volume. What I do know for certain is that with each additional pair of subs, the easier it is to get impactful, great sounding response at an intended frequency range, which in my case is the lower 20Hz range from a bunch of 12" subs which make me very happy!

7. This gets back to expectations on how low you want to go.

[KeithL]

Available and "allowable" room location is also going to be a huge factor.

The most obvious example is corner placement...
You're going to get a LOT more bass if you place a sub in a corner...
And, with corner placement, the driver is also at least somewhat "more solidly loaded"...
So, in SOME situations, a smaller sub in a corner will outperform a bigger sub not in a corner...
But it may or may not be clean bass... (a corner location may be boomy... or it may not).
So that may or may not be a good location to choose...
But there's no point in even worrying about that if corner placement just isn't an option anyway...

Another factor that most people seem to prefer to avoid thinking about is "room ambient noise"...
In simplest terms, it doesn't matter if your sub itself is dead clean and silent if your walls, and pipes, and stuff on your shelves, rattles.
And that is also going to have a strong impact on the idea of "non localization".
If your room itself, and your subs, are "dead silent" outside of making those non-localizable low frequencies, then you can put then anywhere.
If ANYTHING is going to telegraph the location of your sub or subs then they should at least be arranged symmetrically.
(My preferences would be center-front, center-back, next to your L&R-main speakers, or maybe front corners... )

Mar 18, 2024 10:16:40 GMT -5 405x5 said:

One sub or multiple subs?

That determination can only be made properly on an individual basis, of course meaning going from one person‘s installation to the next.

Maybe 4 subwoofers is the way to go…… Maybe one or two.
You can’t know that without determining the first two primary considerations on any individual installation.

First thing to consider is the low frequency response of the existing speakers that a subwoofer installation is being added to. That’s a huge variable, which is why these discussions about subwoofers do more to drive me crazy than anything else.


You may have Main, loudspeakers that reach so low, that a subwoofer is barely needed, but that doesn’t take into account explosions and other home theater sound effects that a conventional woofer wasn’t built to handle, but most of the time of subwoofer is.

[KeithL]

Yes... but there was a bit more to it than that.

As per the theory you cannot localize where the sound from a sub is coming from.
This means that you can put it both anywhere that is convenient and anywhere the acoustics are good.
It also means that you can place that one sub in a location where there is little interaction between it and your main speakers around the crossover point.
If you have multiple subs you also have a lot more opportunity for interactions between them all.
(You've spread out the power, so each interaction will be smaller, but you have a lot more sources, so there will potentially be a lot more interactions overall.)
(You're hoping that those interactions will all "sort of blur together into one big smooth response" - but that is not guaranteed.)
(With a single sub you only had to find "one good spot for a sub"...)

Mar 18, 2024 8:03:23 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Very delighted to see a thread started like this.

I prefer to focus on the Physics of the thing as opposed to the Financial aspect.

The original Theory on having one subwoofer was based on those lower frequencies being much harder for the human ear to ascertain as to their location as opposed to the high frequencies.

[KeithL]

Yes... and no... but don't count on it.

SOME low cost subs sound quite good as long as you don't play them too loudly.
But SOME real low end ones just sound nasty no matter what level you play them at.

It's a horrible overgeneralization but bad drivers tend to sound worse when you play them more loudly... because the actual THD goes up...
But bad cabinets tend to sound tubby or thumpy at pretty much any level...

Mar 18, 2024 14:08:49 GMT -5 ttocs said:

Mar 18, 2024 12:44:39 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

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6. Multiple subs running at lower output than design expectation, this is what can make cheap subs work for what you are wanting. I don't have a formula for such things, but there has got to be a sweet spot for how many cheap subs equal a low number of expensive subs in a small room at low volume. What I do know for certain is that with each additional pair of subs, the easier it is to get impactful, great sounding response at an intended frequency range, which in my case is the lower 20Hz range from a bunch of 12" subs which make me very happy!

........................

[creimes]

Watch for their BOGO sales

shop.starkesound.com/collections/subwoofers

[fbczar]

Mar 18, 2024 12:44:39 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Factoids affecting my decision:

1. Whether listening to music or movies, we do not listen at loud volumes. Low to mid 80’s of decibels are typical for us.

2. Infrasonic frequency response is not desired. I like it OK, but my wife absolutely hates it, so there’s no reason to buy (highly expensive) frequency response that we won’t want or use.

3. Having owned low-distortion subwoofers from multiple “high end” manufacturers and other “high distortion” models from “mass market” manufacturers such as JBL and Klipsch, I’ve not heard a great deal of difference (to my ears in my room). Note (importantly) that all subs were run at low volumes and with DSP correction).

4. The main two things we want from subwoofer(s) are deeper extension from our stand-mounted bookshelf speakers and better impact from movies. We’ve previously tried true R/L subs with satellites run full-range as well as mono subwoofer(s) run via the bass management of the processor. Both implementations provided acceptable results with neither option seeming audibly superior.

5. Cost is not the significant factor in our decision. We would, however, like to use our Emotiva Virtual Copper subwoofer transmitter/receiver pair so we need not run long interconnects from the centrally-located electronics to the subwoofer(s).

6. The major thing I want in the subwoofer is absence of overhang. When a note stops, I want the sub to stop. That said , I also want realistic decay from drums and bass instruments. Subs that have a highly peaked response for maximum output resonate too much for my taste.

May be more information than you really wanted…. In summary, I’m thinking that a high-quality “midrange” sub such as one from SVS or Hsu research might fit our needs? I don’t think we need Martin-Logan or others in that price range. Since we don’t need high output, a 10 or 12” should be more than sufficient?

Thanks- Boom

Boom, Don't you think the subwoofer buying process may need to begin with the maximum budget for one subwoofer in mind. If you can buy a true super sub vs two good subs fidelity may be the major factor. Some subs simply sound better than other subs. Perlisten, Kreisel, JL Audio, etc. actually sound better with music than other subs. So, if music is your singular concern, and your room cooperates, one great sub may be the best choice. If music and home theater are both involved output at super low frequencies may become a greater concern, but sound quality may still be the major factor. It depends on the fidelity you demand. Part of the selection of a subwoofer must be the quality of your main speakers. I have Magnepan 3.7i"s and it helps to have an extremely low distortion sealed subs to use with them. Anyway, I started with one Kreisel DXD12012 and was fortunate to add another one a few years later. No doubt, two are significantly better than one, but I would rather have one really fine musical sub than two average sounding ones. Of course, as you have mentioned, the room may decide for you as may your personal preferences.

[Boomzilla]

Thanks for all the (very) thoughtful replies. The biggest subwoofer issue (as yet to be determined) is room size and acoustics. As I’ve mentioned here before, we’re about to move from Louisiana to New England to be near our grandchildren. We have NO idea what our new digs may be like, but considering New England housing prices and property tax rates, any listening room is likely to be smaller - possibly much smaller than what we have now.

Once we choose and move, I plan to hire a professional acoustics company to treat the listening room. It’ll probably need stuff (like bass traps) that I’ve not needed up until now.

And the things I’ve learned through experience in my current listening room (like the beneficial effects of stacking subwoofers vertically) may not transfer to the new venue.

All in all, I look forward to the new challenges and will update this thread periodically as I learn. I HIGHLY value the excellent advice you’ve given me here and will take much of it to heart.

Thanks again - Glenn

[405x5]

Mar 18, 2024 22:21:47 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Thanks for all the (very) thoughtful replies. The biggest subwoofer issue (as yet to be determined) is room size and acoustics. As I’ve mentioned here before, we’re about to move from Louisiana to New England to be near our grandchildren. We have NO idea what our new digs may be like, but considering New England housing prices and property tax rates, any listening room is likely to be smaller - possibly much smaller than what we have now.

Once we choose and move, I plan to hire a professional acoustics company to treat the listening room. It’ll probably need stuff (like bass traps) that I’ve not needed up until now.

And the things I’ve learned through experience in my current listening room (like the beneficial effects of stacking subwoofers vertically) may not transfer to the new venue.

All in all, I look forward to the new challenges and will update this thread periodically as I learn. I HIGHLY value the excellent advice you’ve given me here and will take much of it to heart.

Thanks again - Glenn

Welcome to the neighborhood(Almost) will you miss the alligators?

[turner]

I'd wait and see what your new HT room will be like. Last place I lived had a perfect mini shaped theater and a single sub filled the room perfectly. New place has vaulted ceilings and a huge opening to a dining room and a single sub just didn't work. Also, do you plan to host a lot of people for HT nights? A single sub can work for a few seats, multiple subs help with a wider seating area.

Unless you have a room that is just doesn't work for a single sub, I'd always choose one good sub over two cheap subs.

[Boomzilla]

Mar 19, 2024 7:29:14 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Welcome to the neighborhood(Almost) will you miss the alligators?

Time will tell...

[Boomzilla]

Mar 19, 2024 9:35:46 GMT -5 turner said:

I'd wait and see what your new HT room will be like. Last place I lived had a perfect mini shaped theater and a single sub filled the room perfectly. New place has vaulted ceilings and a huge opening to a dining room and a single sub just didn't work. Also, do you plan to host a lot of people for HT nights? A single sub can work for a few seats, multiple subs help with a wider seating area.

Unless you have a room that is just doesn't work for a single sub, I'd always choose one good sub over two cheap subs.

Yes - I will wait until we've decided where we'll live before sub shopping. The most likely group for movie nights will be my wife and I, my daughter and son in law, and our two grandchildren. I have an industrial hygiene background and understand the effects of loud volumes on ears (particularly the less than mature ears of children). Therefore, I don't expect to be playing anything at loud volumes.

In addition to the sub, I'll also need to find a center channel & some surrounds. Depending on the room, I may be able to wire some speaker cables into the walls, ceiling, or baseboards. Otherwise, I'll be considering self-powered speakers with wireless connections. Initially, I plan to use my Arcam 300 AVR. If I can wrangle a separate stereo-only room (about the same probability as my wife morphing into a younger Cindy Crawford), I'll go higher-end for the music-only system.

If I were younger, I'd consider buying bare land and building a house to my own specs. But I've waited a decade or two too long to take up that amount of physical work.

And that brings me to my dollop of "wisdom of age" to dispense to the rest'a youse guys: I could have afforded to retire at the age of 50. I had the resources, having saved carefully throughout my life (and also having the blessing of a thrifty wife). I could have retired then and spent a couple of decades enjoying retirement and travel with my better half. Instead, I found myself making really good money and that I really liked the work I was doing. So I worked until the age of 70, then retired. I now find that between my own physical ailments and those of my wife, we can no longer do all the retirement things that we'd hoped to do. You think that your health will last forever. It won't. If I had it to do all over again, I'd have retired earlier and enjoyed more years doing things we wanted to do together. So learn from my experiences (as in "if the shoe fits, wear it"). The most valuable thing in life is time. We all have a limited amount of it, and there's no way to tell when yours will run out. Focus on your priorities and go for the things you really want.

Finis - Boom

[MusicHead]

Mar 19, 2024 12:19:36 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Mar 19, 2024 7:29:14 GMT -5 405x5 said:

Welcome to the neighborhood(Almost) will you miss the alligators?

Time will tell...

Ah, trading flooding for snowing... Lived in New England since 1996, lots to like but winters sure are cold.

[Boomzilla]

Mar 20, 2024 22:46:37 GMT -5 MusicHead said:

Ah, trading flooding for snowing... Lived in New England since 1996, lots to like but winters sure are cold.

What's "snowing?"

[MusicHead]

Mar 21, 2024 8:05:03 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Mar 20, 2024 22:46:37 GMT -5 MusicHead said:

Ah, trading flooding for snowing... Lived in New England since 1996, lots to like but winters sure are cold.

What's "snowing?"

When white, fluffy stuff falls from the sky. No, it's not manna...

The first winter will be fun 😁