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Post by mintzar on Oct 26, 2009 13:44:01 GMT -5
I basically upgraded the opamps and the coupling caps. Honestly, there isn't much of a guide to post for it. The important part is desoldering correctly so that you don't lift the board traces. I ordered the parts from Parts Connexion and they advised me on what to get.
The opamps are $2 opamps, the clock is a cheapo clock, and most of the caps are cheapos... upgrading them made a $600 dac sound like a $2000 dac.
Everything on the board is clearly labeled -- it's almost asking to be modified. There are a few screws holding the board in place, remove those to lift the board out, and desolder the opamps and coupling caps and replace them with the new ones. It'll take you a a couple of hours. desoldering was a BIT$% for me as I don't have a whole lot of experience desoldering.
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MikeWI
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Post by MikeWI on Oct 26, 2009 15:21:37 GMT -5
I basically upgraded the opamps and the coupling caps. Honestly, there isn't much of a guide to post for it. The important part is desoldering correctly so that you don't lift the board traces. I ordered the parts from Parts Connexion and they advised me on what to get. The opamps are $2 opamps, the clock is a cheapo clock, and most of the caps are cheapos... upgrading them made a $600 dac sound like a $2000 dac. Everything on the board is clearly labeled -- it's almost asking to be modified. There are a few screws holding the board in place, remove those to lift the board out, and desolder the opamps and coupling caps and replace them with the new ones. It'll take you a a couple of hours. desoldering was a BIT$% for me as I don't have a whole lot of experience desoldering. So, I always wonder why a company doesn't do this with the default product. Much easier for them to put it in. Maybe $10-20 in higher costs and charge a little more for a better product? Mike
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 26, 2009 15:49:31 GMT -5
I basically upgraded the opamps and the coupling caps. Honestly, there isn't much of a guide to post for it. The important part is desoldering correctly so that you don't lift the board traces. I ordered the parts from Parts Connexion and they advised me on what to get. The opamps are $2 opamps, the clock is a cheapo clock, and most of the caps are cheapos... upgrading them made a $600 dac sound like a $2000 dac. Everything on the board is clearly labeled -- it's almost asking to be modified. There are a few screws holding the board in place, remove those to lift the board out, and desolder the opamps and coupling caps and replace them with the new ones. It'll take you a a couple of hours. desoldering was a BIT$% for me as I don't have a whole lot of experience desoldering. So, I always wonder why a company doesn't do this with the default product. Much easier for them to put it in. Maybe $10-20 in higher costs and charge a little more for a better product? Mike Commercial electronics designs are generally done to maximize profit at a target product price point. Any corners that can be cut while still hitting the required performance specifications will result in better profit margin for the manufacturer.
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MikeWI
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Post by MikeWI on Oct 26, 2009 16:37:13 GMT -5
So, I always wonder why a company doesn't do this with the default product. Much easier for them to put it in. Maybe $10-20 in higher costs and charge a little more for a better product? Mike Commercial electronics designs are generally done to maximize profit at a target product price point. Any corners that can be cut while still hitting the required performance specifications will result in better profit margin for the manufacturer. I realize WHY they did it, but I still don't get it. I mean if they add $20 in parts and charge $25 more than baseline, they gain $5 in absolute profit (although the relative profit may have decreased) and they can promote the better parts in advertising and it should reflect in positive reviews. Mike
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jlafrenz
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Post by jlafrenz on Oct 26, 2009 16:58:02 GMT -5
Higher prices move less volume though, so it may not be worth it long run.
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Post by TJHUB on Oct 26, 2009 18:46:50 GMT -5
I basically upgraded the opamps and the coupling caps. Honestly, there isn't much of a guide to post for it. The important part is desoldering correctly so that you don't lift the board traces. I ordered the parts from Parts Connexion and they advised me on what to get. The opamps are $2 opamps, the clock is a cheapo clock, and most of the caps are cheapos... upgrading them made a $600 dac sound like a $2000 dac. Everything on the board is clearly labeled -- it's almost asking to be modified. There are a few screws holding the board in place, remove those to lift the board out, and desolder the opamps and coupling caps and replace them with the new ones. It'll take you a a couple of hours. desoldering was a BIT$% for me as I don't have a whole lot of experience desoldering. Can I ask you to describe the changes in sound from the mods you did? I'm going to call Parts Connexion tomorrow and see what's what. I'll make a decision based on what I find out. However, with the Mazda tube, I find this DAC to be spectacular and I don't know what I'd want to make "better".
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Post by TJHUB on Oct 26, 2009 19:05:17 GMT -5
So, I always wonder why a company doesn't do this with the default product. Much easier for them to put it in. Maybe $10-20 in higher costs and charge a little more for a better product? Mike Commercial electronics designs are generally done to maximize profit at a target product price point. Any corners that can be cut while still hitting the required performance specifications will result in better profit margin for the manufacturer. dyohn: I know you really know your stuff, and I really appreciate the intelligent posts you always seem to contribute, but I hope that the designer of any component where cost is critical picked the best parts for the best value. If a component costs $2.00 less than another equal sounding component, then I completely understand. However, I can't imagine any designer picking a component that is $20.00 (total) cheaper AND it compromises the sound quality or performance. That would be unfortunate, but I guess it can happen when the goal of of the final product is be sold under $600.00 MSRP to target a specific opportunity in the market place. What's funny is when someone can "upgrade" a few low cost components and make the product significantly "better". A lost opportunity for the original designer, no? The weak parts of this DAC when using the digital coax input and tube buffer output IMO are: 1. The stock Electro-harmonix tube is a joke. It sounds distorted and has limited extension on both the top and the bottom. I just can't say it has ANY redeeming qualities whatsoever. 2. It was difficult for me to find a tube that did everything I wanted. The toughest area was bass articulation. As I understand it, a clock mod is needed to make this "better". My Mazda tube does just great, so I don't find myself all too concerned with bass articulation. 3. Vibration seems to really affect this DAC. I tried a tube damper with very poor results. Setting the DAC on a fiber filled pillow changed things tremendously. A tube thing? I don't know... Other than these issues, this is by far the best DAC I've ever heard. Although, I've only heard 5 external DACs to date and only 4 of them in my setup the way it is right now. ;D
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Post by mintzar on Oct 26, 2009 20:02:30 GMT -5
The Burson Opamps are NOT CHEAP! They cost me $150 for 3 dual opamps (which you need all 3 to upgrade the RCA out) -- so it was a large upgrade. The coupling caps were about $3-5 each. Companies don't put the super high end caps or opamps in because of the extreme cost increase. Most of those mainstream audio companies mark their products up 5x. There's probably $100 worth of parts MAX in the music hall dac.
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Post by TJHUB on Oct 26, 2009 21:47:25 GMT -5
The Burson Opamps are NOT CHEAP! They cost me $150 for 3 dual opamps (which you need all 3 to upgrade the RCA out) -- so it was a large upgrade. The coupling caps were about $3-5 each. Companies don't put the super high end caps or opamps in because of the extreme cost increase. Most of those mainstream audio companies mark their products up 5x. There's probably $100 worth of parts MAX in the music hall dac. I understand, but what about the sound changed? What tube are you running? Feel free to PM me if you prefer.
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jlafrenz
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Post by jlafrenz on Oct 26, 2009 21:58:26 GMT -5
I think regardless of what tube they put in not every one would be pleased since tubes seem to be a way for audio nuts to tailor the sound to their liking. Knowing this, it makes sense that they put a lower end/budget tube in the product knowing fully that it will be swapped out. Just my thoughts though.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 27, 2009 8:15:52 GMT -5
Commercial electronics designs are generally done to maximize profit at a target product price point. Any corners that can be cut while still hitting the required performance specifications will result in better profit margin for the manufacturer. I realize WHY they did it, but I still don't get it. I mean if they add $20 in parts and charge $25 more than baseline, they gain $5 in absolute profit (although the relative profit may have decreased) and they can promote the better parts in advertising and it should reflect in positive reviews. Mike $5 profit on a $20 cost component is too low to make it worthwhile, and by the time that price increase gets passed through the retail chain it turns into a $100 price increase for the consumer. And if that price increase puts them over their target consumer price point it would never get approved. As was mentioned by someone else, if that price increase costs them 5% of their sales volume, they end up losing money on the model. Products that use higher quality components end up being sold at much higher prices and tagged with "audiophile" marketing to move them... which is one reason why Emotiva is such a bargain. They use high quality components and then sell at mass market prices because they realize all of their profit (it is not diluted and tacked onto by wholesalers and distributors and retailers.) It ends up being a very good deal for consumers like us.
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Post by DYohn on Oct 27, 2009 8:20:42 GMT -5
Commercial electronics designs are generally done to maximize profit at a target product price point. Any corners that can be cut while still hitting the required performance specifications will result in better profit margin for the manufacturer. dyohn: I know you really know your stuff, and I really appreciate the intelligent posts you always seem to contribute, but I hope that the designer of any component where cost is critical picked the best parts for the best value. If a component costs $2.00 less than another equal sounding component, then I completely understand. However, I can't imagine any designer picking a component that is $20.00 (total) cheaper AND it compromises the sound quality or performance. That would be unfortunate, but I guess it can happen when the goal of of the final product is be sold under $600.00 MSRP to target a specific opportunity in the market place. Thanks, I try. Your scenario is exactly what I've seen happen many times. I worked for Creative Labs for a while and saw components being chosen by the procurement team based solely on price regardless of what the design team had specified. If an op amp from Joe Blow Electronics costs 2 cents less than the specified op amp from Texas Instruments and has equivalent performance on paper, the cheaper one will usually get used in a mainstream mass-market product.
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Post by scottl on Oct 27, 2009 18:48:58 GMT -5
... I hope that the designer of any component where cost is critical picked the best parts for the best value. If a component costs $2.00 less than another equal sounding component, then I completely understand. However, I can't imagine any designer picking a component that is $20.00 (total) cheaper AND it compromises the sound quality or performance. That would be unfortunate, but I guess it can happen when the goal of of the final product is be sold under $600.00 MSRP to target a specific opportunity in the market place. What's funny is when someone can "upgrade" a few low cost components and make the product significantly "better". A lost opportunity for the original designer, no? As dyohn indicated, this is the norm - it happens all day, every day, more often at big companies aiming at the mass market. It's unfortunate, but even more specialized companies (like Music Hall) have to do it - their overall business strategy usually requires their profit margin to remain consistent, as well as the profit margins of their distributors & dealers. Every cost increase or decrease is magnified accordingly (if Emotiva was not internet-direct, far fewer people could afford them!). Good designers do seek the best performance value for their products, but 'value' is relative. Let's say there are $100 worth of parts in the Music Hall, it's a nice round number. Add a part worth $20, and you've just raised the retail by about $120. When the product already sounds good, that change could be considered a bad value. Those decisions need to be made over and over again (op-amps, caps, DAC's, power supplies, etc.), and kept in some kind of proportion. With nothing but part upgrades, I bet Roy Hall could have a $2000 (retail) DAC on his hands. To compete at that level, though, the design would probably need to change, so it's back to the drawing board... It's a balancing act.
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