TJHUB
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Posts: 488
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Post by TJHUB on Nov 5, 2009 15:15:23 GMT -5
Few questions: - I currently have a SVS 16-46PC (one of the very first svs powered subs) - is the PB13 Ultra or PC13 Ultra a huge upgrade? Which is better the Box or Cylinder? (I'm tempted to move the 16-46 to the bedroom setup and get a new sub for the theater if I ever get some money) - Right now the bass is rather weak right in the center of the room and unfortunately thats right where the seating is - close to the edges of the room its great. I've tried moving the sub around but in any of the "wife approved" placements its the same story. It helped a lot when I reversed the phase of the sub but the room is still tricky. Other than room treatment, what are my best courses of action?? A second sub? Some DSP thing like Audessey (wonder what the dsp is on the emotiva subs)? I plan on getting the XMC becuase of its room 2 hdmi - hopefully it has some room correction that might help me. Thanks Chris The original SVS tubes were great subs in their day, however, things have changed quite a bit over the years. I purchased an SVS 20-39PC+ when they first became available. It was a great sub overall with two main issues. One, the upper bass (above 50Hz) did not sound good. Two, the tube sub's are so light that the driver's motion caused a lot of unnecessary floor shaking. Last year, I upgraded my cylinder sub to the PB13-Ultra. Make no mistake about it, the PB13-Ultra has fantastic sound quality. People can make all the generalized statements they want about ported sub sound quality vs sealed, but I'd put the PB13-Ultra up against all but the best sound quality subs available today. The improvement in upper bass is very obvious (actually far better than any other SVS sub I've heard). The forward firing driver and heavy box shakes my floor about 1/2 as much as the cylinder sub did, but the output of this sub can be downright scary! Your seating position could not be worse. For good base response, the last place you want to sit is in the middle of the room. No sub is going to help that.
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Post by roadrunner on Nov 5, 2009 16:15:00 GMT -5
jmilton
Excellent advice... but it would have been even better advice if you hadn't beat me to it! LOL
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Post by mysterymachine on Nov 6, 2009 12:40:04 GMT -5
Thanks, Wow... thats a LOT of info (at the link jmilton sent). Guess I have some leisure time reading ahead of me.
Thanks for the info on the newer SVSs. I have a PB10 in the bedroom system and I don't like it compared to the 16-46PC. The 1646 feels like its punching you in the gut without sounding boomy. Sounds great even loud. The PB10 - not so much. Glad to hear that its not a limitation of the box format and likely more to do with the fact that the PB10 is the cheapest sub they offer.
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Post by mysterymachine on Nov 6, 2009 12:42:15 GMT -5
Bummer on the middle of room being the worst for bass - I can move the couch a foot or two in my layout but nothing that will put it in a place with more bass. Sucks becuase everything was great until I remodeled the kitchen and robbed 2' from just a section on one side of the theater. Amazing how much diff that made (also they had to remove the popcorn ceiling in the theater when they did the remodel - I need to look into acoustic panel for the ceiling)
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Post by jmilton on Nov 6, 2009 13:11:36 GMT -5
Bummer on the middle of room being the worst for bass - I can move the couch a foot or two in my layout but nothing that will put it in a place with more bass. Sucks becuase everything was great until I remodeled the kitchen and robbed 2' from just a section on one side of the theater. Amazing how much diff that made (also they had to remove the popcorn ceiling in the theater when they did the remodel - I need to look into acoustic panel for the ceiling) Nearer to a corner or wall will usually bump up the bass. Middle of the room will work still. Use your phase or a bass auto Q w/ a mic in your seat. My room is eq'd so the middle seat is the "house seat". Place the sub in a spot that does not put your middle of the room seat in a "null". Read this for placement tips: www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/bass-management-basics-2013-settings-made-simpleor... www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/subwoofer-placement-the-place-for-bass-part-1(Did I already send these links? Can't remember because i am excited about all of the new stuff Emo is coming out with before Christmas!!!)
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Post by bourbonncigars on Nov 6, 2009 20:35:30 GMT -5
I have a PB13 being delivered next week. That is all. Bourbon out.
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Post by nickwin on Nov 6, 2009 21:53:42 GMT -5
The Ultra is a better sub but it also a much more expensive sub. I own a MFW-15 and have seen many SVS's and I can say the build quality on the svs's is far superior. This is just speculation, but with how hot MFW's run, I would be really surprised to see many of them last more than 5 or 6 years without some major problems. SVS on the other hand overbuilds all of there stuff.
Another thing to be aware of is that Craigsub was found to have some affiliation with AV123, so his opinion may be a pretty biased one.
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Post by edoggrc51 on Nov 6, 2009 22:03:53 GMT -5
The Ultra is a better sub but it also a much more expensive sub. I own a MFW-15 and have seen many SVS's and I can say the build quality on the svs's is far superior. This is just speculation, but with how hot MFW's run, I would be really surprised to see many of them last more than 5 or 6 years without some major problems. SVS on the other hand overbuilds all of there stuff. Another thing to be aware of is that Craigsub was found to have some affiliation with AV123, so his opinion may be a pretty biased one. +1 on that build quality comment. SVS subs are built like tanks!
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TJHUB
Emo VIPs
Posts: 488
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Post by TJHUB on Nov 7, 2009 0:02:17 GMT -5
The Ultra is a better sub but it also a much more expensive sub. I own a MFW-15 and have seen many SVS's and I can say the build quality on the svs's is far superior. This is just speculation, but with how hot MFW's run, I would be really surprised to see many of them last more than 5 or 6 years without some major problems. SVS on the other hand overbuilds all of there stuff. Another thing to be aware of is that Craigsub was found to have some affiliation with AV123, so his opinion may be a pretty biased one. Be careful spreading rumors like that last statement. Craig is nothing but a great guy and I can assure you that his affiliation with AV123 had nothing to do with his findings. His subwoofer findings are a nice guide, but they are nothing more than that. There are a million ways to argue his findings. Even more, a sub's performance is VERY room/placement dependent, so most will experience very different performance levels from Craig's findings.
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Post by bourbonncigars on Nov 7, 2009 12:57:11 GMT -5
His subwoofer findings are a nice guide, but they are nothing more than that. That's exactly how I see it. You can look at the subs on the list and tell which ones are close performance wise, and go from there. Obviously the last sub on the list isn't going to match the output of the top players, so it gives you at least a path to get on when researching.
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Post by nickwin on Nov 8, 2009 12:27:52 GMT -5
The Ultra is a better sub but it also a much more expensive sub. I own a MFW-15 and have seen many SVS's and I can say the build quality on the svs's is far superior. This is just speculation, but with how hot MFW's run, I would be really surprised to see many of them last more than 5 or 6 years without some major problems. SVS on the other hand overbuilds all of there stuff. Another thing to be aware of is that Craigsub was found to have some affiliation with AV123, so his opinion may be a pretty biased one. Be careful spreading rumors like that last statement. Craig is nothing but a great guy and I can assure you that his affiliation with AV123 had nothing to do with his findings. His subwoofer findings are a nice guide, but they are nothing more than that. There are a million ways to argue his findings. Even more, a sub's performance is VERY room/placement dependent, so most will experience very different performance levels from Craig's findings. I wasn't spreading rumors, I stated a fact and said that it MAY of effected his ratings. I agree that his list is a great starting point for a lot of people, but I also feel a lot of people made a decision solely on his ratings, bought an MFW-15, and were let down by the build quality and bad amp.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2009 20:45:53 GMT -5
Craig is nothing but a great guy and I can assure you that his affiliation with AV123 had nothing to do with his findings. The skeptic in me finds that hard to believe. Unfortunately, many seem to take his findings as gospel. Anyone who rates the JL F112 above the SVS PB12-Plus might be a great guy but holds no water with me.
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Post by flamingeye on Nov 8, 2009 21:29:27 GMT -5
The built quality of my mfw-15 is Steller IMO and as for the bad amp`s as far as I know every one was taken care of and got new amp`s + $100 apology coupons , I do not think a hot running amp are strictly a mfw-15 phenomena I have had stereo amps that I could cook eggs and bacon on that`s lasted for 30 + years
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Post by tchaik on Nov 8, 2009 23:12:52 GMT -5
chuckienut...
wouldn't you want to hold your own water? they do have prescriptions for that for those of us seasoned citizens who may need it late at night.
tchaik...............
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TJHUB
Emo VIPs
Posts: 488
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Post by TJHUB on Nov 8, 2009 23:19:10 GMT -5
Be careful spreading rumors like that last statement. Craig is nothing but a great guy and I can assure you that his affiliation with AV123 had nothing to do with his findings. His subwoofer findings are a nice guide, but they are nothing more than that. There are a million ways to argue his findings. Even more, a sub's performance is VERY room/placement dependent, so most will experience very different performance levels from Craig's findings. I wasn't spreading rumors, I stated a fact and said that it MAY of effected his ratings. I agree that his list is a great starting point for a lot of people, but I also feel a lot of people made a decision solely on his ratings, bought an MFW-15, and were let down by the build quality and bad amp. Fact? Ok... Also, how is any one person supposed to figure out that a particular piece of audio gear is going to have inconsistent build quality or bad amps?
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TJHUB
Emo VIPs
Posts: 488
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Post by TJHUB on Nov 8, 2009 23:27:54 GMT -5
Craig is nothing but a great guy and I can assure you that his affiliation with AV123 had nothing to do with his findings. The skeptic in me finds that hard to believe. Unfortunately, many seem to take his findings as gospel. Anyone who rates the JL F112 above the SVS PB12-Plus might be a great guy but holds no water with me. Craig never set out to create gospel, so what people do with his information is up to them. I never thought much of the PB12-Plus/2. It had good output and not much more. The JL subs are wonderfully articulate with decent output, they just cost too much compared to other capable competition.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2009 23:43:31 GMT -5
chuckienut... wouldn't you want to hold your own water? they do have prescriptions for that for those of us seasoned citizens who may need it late at night. tchaik............... Doc, I should have had you present two weeks ago. I had surgery and for about 5 days I had to go pee pee about every 4 minutes! ;D
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Nov 9, 2009 5:22:15 GMT -5
Sounds like you should have had a bag hooked up! ;-) or maybe :-(
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Post by nickwin on Nov 9, 2009 13:38:13 GMT -5
The built quality of my mfw-15 is Steller IMO and as for the bad amp`s as far as I know every one was taken care of and got new amp`s + $100 apology coupons , I do not think a hot running amp are strictly a mfw-15 phenomena I have had stereo amps that I could cook eggs and bacon on that`s lasted for 30 + years I guess its all relative. I have owned many many subs, some of them the budget type, and IMO the MFW-15 has the lowest build quality of any that I have owned. The amp plate is mounted into mdf that is about a 1/4 inch thick with no t-nuts and wood screws. Try taking that amp about a couple more times and your not going to have anything left for the screws to grab onto. Its little details like that that bother me about the MFW-15. Mine also has minor blemishes in the finish. If yours has a perfect finish, that's great, and not surprising at all because AV123's quality control and consistency are far from perfect. About the temp of the amp, I have also had many amps that run hot when they are being driven, but non that run this hot in standby. Unless you unplug your sub from the wall every time you are not using it, its running blisteringly hot all day everyday 24/7. I am no expert, but I am pretty sure it is generally accepted that high heat shortens the life of electronics, at least to some degree. The $100 apology coupon was a joke IMO. You have to spend, what was it, $500 to get the $100 off? Or was it $1000? I don't plan on spending any more money on AV123 products, because I just haven't had a great experience with them on the whole. Don't get me wrong, the MFW-15 is a great performer for the price, and I understand that sacrifices have to be made to sell a sub of the caliber for the price they ask, and that is why I still have mine. But the overall feeling I have with it is that it wont last as long as some of the other subs I have owned. Only time will tell. I would love to see this sub working perfectly 10-15 years from now.
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Post by nickwin on Nov 9, 2009 13:47:35 GMT -5
I wasn't spreading rumors, I stated a fact and said that it MAY of effected his ratings. I agree that his list is a great starting point for a lot of people, but I also feel a lot of people made a decision solely on his ratings, bought an MFW-15, and were let down by the build quality and bad amp. Fact? Ok... Also, how is any one person supposed to figure out that a particular piece of audio gear is going to have inconsistent build quality or bad amps? I am not saying that he should of somehow predicted the bad amp problem, but it doesn't take and expert to remove the amp plate, look at the components, look at how it is all put together, and make a general quality assessment from that. I built a DIY sub a year ago, and at that time had no experience with sub construction or even woodworking in general. Even today I am far from an expert in these things, even so, when I removed the amp on the MFW-15 it was immediately evident to my untrained eyes that corners were cut in the construction of this sub.
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