RSavage
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Post by RSavage on Nov 23, 2009 23:33:22 GMT -5
Thanks Lonnie...great explanation.
It does bother me though that you quote 'RMS' power capabilities for the XPA-5 with less than all channels driven if the unit can't be run at those levels. I'm old school.....RMS to me means 'steady state' RMS power. If the device can't run at that level, then quoting those figures becomes just so much advertising hype. I don't expect that from Emotiva.
I'm very happy with my XPA-5 and anxiously await my UMC-1....but Emo doesn't need to play games with their stats. One of the main things that attracted me to Emotiva in the first place was your honesty. Please be proud of what you have designed and don't cheapen the line by posting 'optimistic' numbers.
Ray
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2009 23:34:54 GMT -5
Great Emotiva feedback as always. Thanks Lonnie and Dann for the clarification! ;D
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Post by nickwin on Nov 23, 2009 23:51:56 GMT -5
I have told a lot of people that we don’t recommend using the multi-channel amps for strictly stereo or mono-block use. If you want a high power stereo or mono-block amp, then that is what you should buy. Thanks for the explanation I still feel this is something that should be mentioned in the online literature or in the manual though. It may seem like common knowledge, but its news to me and obviously a few others. Fortunately I haven't been driving mine hard so it should be fine.
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Nov 23, 2009 23:58:32 GMT -5
Goodness. Get some sunshine and go to the mall or something, folks.
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 24, 2009 0:05:04 GMT -5
Thanks Lonnie...great explanation. It does bother me though that you quote 'RMS' power capabilities for the XPA-5 with less than all channels driven if the unit can't be run at those levels. I'm old school.....RMS to me means 'steady state' RMS power. If the device can't run at that level, then quoting those figures becomes just so much advertising hype. I don't expect that from Emotiva. I'm very happy with my XPA-5 and anxiously await my UMC-1....but Emo doesn't need to play games with their stats. One of the main things that attracted me to Emotiva in the first place was your honesty. Please be proud of what you have designed and don't cheapen the line by posting 'optimistic' numbers. Ray I didn't read his response the same way you did. Where did he say that all channels were not capable of producing the true RMS power simultaneously? It sounded to me like he was saying it could be harmful if you constantly drive the amp past its rated power. I didn't feel like anything about their specs was "optimistic."
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RSavage
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Post by RSavage on Nov 24, 2009 0:20:57 GMT -5
I didn't read his response the same way you did. Where did he say that all channels were not capable of producing the true RMS power simultaneously? It sounded to me like he was saying it could be harmful if you constantly drive the amp past its rated power. I didn't feel like anything about their specs was "optimistic." I'm not going to get into any criticism here.....that wasn't my intent. The specs I referred to were not what Lonnie stated in his post...it was the numbers used on the XPA-5 product page and quoted earlier in this thread. They give power output for from 5 channels driven down to 1 channel driven. Lonnie's explanation was perfectly clear, and I appreciate that. The specs on the product page are not. Case in point: I originally considered purchasing a UPA-7 so that I could use 5 channels for my theater and the remaining two for a seldom used second stereo zone. I ended up going with the XPA just for the improved headroom and overall robustness. I had no idea that running only 5 channels on the UPA-7 most of the time might have been an issue. Got lucky for a change. I'm hardly a newbie....I can't be the only one who is hearing this stuff for the first time. I'm off to bed...have to get up early in the morning and get to the mall....need more sun I'm told. R
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lonnie
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Post by lonnie on Nov 24, 2009 0:30:44 GMT -5
Thanks Lonnie...great explanation. It does bother me though that you quote 'RMS' power capabilities for the XPA-5 with less than all channels driven if the unit can't be run at those levels. I'm old school.....RMS to me means 'steady state' RMS power. If the device can't run at that level, then quoting those figures becomes just so much advertising hype. I don't expect that from Emotiva. I'm very happy with my XPA-5 and anxiously await my UMC-1....but Emo doesn't need to play games with their stats. One of the main things that attracted me to Emotiva in the first place was your honesty. Please be proud of what you have designed and don't cheapen the line by posting 'optimistic' numbers. Ray I never said it didn't meet the power specs we state, because it does and they are true RMS ratings. Lets see if I can explain it another way. Lets say your car has 200HP. Like most cars that aren't forced air inducted, they only produce their stated HP at red line. So are you saying that if you can't run your car at red line, continuously, then the auto manufacture is just making up marketing hype and shouldn't state it? Everyone is welcome to come by Emo HQ and I am happy to show you that they do in fact produce the power we state. What I was trying to convey is that there is a lot more energy in the power supply then what a few channels are designed to handle. Its like taking a regular garden hose and connecting it to a fire truck. There is a lot of water being forced through that hose. It will work, but the potential is there to blow out the hose if you push it to hard. ;D If you want to push that much energy through a single channel, then by the mono-blocks. That one channel was designed to handle all the energy from the power supply.
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Nov 24, 2009 1:28:10 GMT -5
Goodness. Get some sunshine and go to the mall or something, folks. Lots of sun here but no mall's. As long as I can safely listen to 2 channel at high levels for about 20% of my XPA-5's usage without hurting it then I'm good. I guess I'm still a little confused if this is a bad idea or not.
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Nov 24, 2009 1:29:23 GMT -5
For the amp, I know it's bad for my ears...
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Post by nickwin on Nov 24, 2009 1:35:13 GMT -5
If for whatever reason someone is using only two or three channels of a xpa-5 or upa-7 for , is there any benefit in rotating the channels you are using say 2-3 times a year? This seems like this could kind of spread out the ware, so no particular channel takes all of the abuse. Kind of like rotating tires if were talking car analogy's.
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Post by roadrunner on Nov 24, 2009 4:48:20 GMT -5
If for whatever reason someone is using only two or three channels of a xpa-5 or upa-7 for , is there any benefit in rotating the channels you are using say 2-3 times a year? This seems like this could kind of spread out the ware, so no particular channel takes all of the abuse. Kind of like rotating tires if were talking car analogy's. nickwin You are worried over nothing. Just using that amp with a reduced number of active channels does NOT cause any wear and tear as you are visulizing, so there is no reason nor any benefit to rotating channel usage. The only "potential" to causing excess wear is if you continuously drive those channels beyond their rated power level. In other words, if and only if, you drive those channels in use to a volume level far above a safe SPL for your listening pleasure. This is not something that could accidentally be done. You would have to continuously play your system at ungodly volume levels every time you fire up your system to cause the type of "wear and tear" you are talking about. It would be extremely difficult for you to even stay in the same room with your speakers for just a few minutes at those volume levels that might cause damage to your system; and, you would have to play your system at that "ear damaging" level full time, all the time before you would have reason to be concerned. You would have to be trying to purposely damage your amp to have reason to worry. Used as normal owners on this board have described, like using only 5 of 7 available channels, you have little to no chance of ever exceeding your units designed limitations... and you would have to exceed those limits continuously to harm it. Understood?
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Nov 24, 2009 5:09:08 GMT -5
OK, from what Lonnie has posted, and the specs stating 500W into 4ohms, single channel driven, it looks to me like the issue is that the PSU can kick out about 1000W and so you need to be careful that any one channel is not putting out more than 500W max. i.e. with one channel driven there is the potential to feed it 1000W and overheat it?
Mind you - is this really any different than having all channels connected, cranking the input and then only sending a signal to one channel?
I think the whole thing comes down to "don't feed more juice than yields about 300-400W (continuous) to any one channel" as the components are not designed for that.
I think this means that most of us, with "average to large" rooms would (as Lonnie said) have our ears bleeding at that point or possibly our speakers blowing.
For me, I think this means 3 channels driven for surround/presence duty on an XPA-5 will not be an issue. The problem seems to be with the DRIVEN channels possible overloading than with the non-connected ones, so that's much less of an issue IMO - just making sure the amp is not getting hot is probably the best advice - if it is, you may be overdriving.
This is also probably why the labels on the amp have the L and R on the outside, centre in the middle, so there is as much cooling as possible for the channels that would get the most use. (i.e. the centre is surrounded by 2 channels that get less hot and the L/R are on the cooler outsides).
Something to consider when only connecting e.g. 2 channels - use the outside ones.
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Post by Delaney on Nov 24, 2009 5:38:17 GMT -5
So this is what you do:
Setup your multichannel amp to play white noise in all channels. Then turn it to 11 (to the max volume it can do). Then you have a limit for how loud you can allow it to play in 2-channel mode.
As you can see it is a non-issue. :-)
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Nov 24, 2009 6:28:35 GMT -5
I would suggest using ear-plugs + muffs if you plan to try this and stand in the room to do the measurement. As you say, likely a non-issue.
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Post by Delaney on Nov 24, 2009 6:32:19 GMT -5
I would suggest using ear-plugs + muffs if you plan to try this My point exactly
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Post by glock3540 on Nov 24, 2009 7:13:02 GMT -5
nemesis stated; "This is also probably why the labels on the amp have the L and R on the outside, centre in the middle, so there is as much cooling as possible for the channels that would get the most use. (i.e. the centre is surrounded by 2 channels that get less hot and the L/R are on the cooler outsides). Something to consider when only connecting e.g. 2 channels - use the outside ones." My XPA-5 was getting very hot after extended, elevated volume multi channel stero listening. As I posted here earlier, I just bought a XPA-1 to power my center speaker to give the XPA-5 some relief. I now have the "outside" channels of the XPA-5 powering 4 of my surrounds, XPA-1 on center, XPA-2 on mains and 4 of the internal 4810 amps for the hieght and wide speakers. I'm hoping with the center channel of the XPA-5 not being used, at the moment, will make the XPA-5 run a little cooler. I'm one of those crazy guys that sometimes listens to music very loud...LOL! Lets see; 300 watts per channel before the rail voltage gets too high, I shouldn't ever get to that level using them for surrounds. Only a crazy person would ever get levels that high! Wait a minute, I'm the only one here that gets my XPA-5 Very Hot to begin with....Oh Well, I'm still loving my Emotiva Amps! Best Bang For The Buck Amps Ever! Blessings, Brian
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Nov 24, 2009 7:57:34 GMT -5
Let us know if it is less hot with 4 channels of surround. Maybe one of those laptop fan units (laptop cooler) placed on top sucking the air out the top would be no harm. ;-)
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Nov 24, 2009 9:07:18 GMT -5
an XPA-3 or XPA-5 or UPA-7 plays two channel music just fine. No problem.
But the point Nick was trying to make on the phone yesterday was this: If you want an amp to run for just two channel music, GET A TWO CHANNEL AMP. That's what it's designed for.
Why would you buy an XPA-3 or 5 for strictly two channel use? They have large power supplies, and multiple, smaller power modules. If all you're gonna do is run two channel music, and push it as hard as possible, eventually you'll roast the power modules.
Again, if you've got a setup that is used partly for theater, and partly for music, that's fine. It will work fine. But if you're going to dirve the bejeezus out of your amp in two channel mode for hours and hours and hours on end, that's not the best case scenario. Get a dedicated two channel amp, with larger power modules.
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RSavage
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Post by RSavage on Nov 24, 2009 9:34:43 GMT -5
Again, if you've got a setup that is used partly for theater, and partly for music, that's fine. It will work fine. But if you're going to dirve the bejeezus out of your amp in two channel mode for hours and hours and hours on end, that's not the best case scenario. Get a dedicated two channel amp, with larger power modules. Dann and Lonnie, Completely understood....thanks for taking the time to clarify. It was never my intent to demean the product in ANY way.....I had just never heard there could be an issue with not running all channels. Thanks for the education....it's always good to learn something new R
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Post by bigred7078 on Nov 24, 2009 10:06:04 GMT -5
So this is what you do: Setup your multichannel amp to play white noise in all channels. Then turn it to 11 (to the max volume it can do). Then you have a limit for how loud you can allow it to play in 2-channel mode. As you can see it is a non-issue. :-) haha nice ;D To bad for all the punks that can't turn it to 11 P.S.- thanks for the description Lonnie, i was finally able to wrap my head around the garden hose/fire truck example
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