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Post by southpaw on Jan 19, 2010 11:28:19 GMT -5
I've got an XPA-5 currently driving 8.3 mains, 6.3 center and 2 ERD surrounds. Uncle Sam is going to give me a little more refund than I thought I was going to get and I'm considering an upgrade to an Atlantic Technology 8200e 5.0 system. I can get a great deal on it but I'm still left wondering what sonic differences I might get out of this upgrade. Has anyone heard both? What general opinions are there of what results I will hear. Thanks. My room is acoustically treated and my components are listed in my sig.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2010 15:23:48 GMT -5
Yes! (perhaps ..... is this really an upgrade?)
No I haven't heard the Atlantic Technology system but have read the reviews, etc. It looks to me that these two speaker systems could be cousins, lots of similarities. I would not be swayed by the list price of the AT's versus the price of the Emo's. The Emo's look like a super match with your SVS top of the line sub. If you are not completely satisfied with the Emo's perhaps an Emo amp upgrade to the XPA-1's across the front might be a possible alternative to try.
Not really trying to discourage you, but I would be cautious and make sure I was able to return the AT's if after a direct A/B comparison you find that maybe they are not an "upgrade." ;D
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oneliterpeter
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Post by oneliterpeter on Jan 19, 2010 17:25:38 GMT -5
Well... You won't be the first guy to upgrade their 8.3's, 6.3's and ERD's.
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jlafrenz
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Post by jlafrenz on Jan 19, 2010 18:01:55 GMT -5
Not crazy at all. Most of us get the upgrade bug or at least an itch to try out other gear.
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Post by bigred7078 on Jan 19, 2010 18:11:48 GMT -5
I'm considering an upgrade to an Atlantic Technology 8200e 5.0 system. . That is a top-notch system IMO.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 19, 2010 18:15:48 GMT -5
Well... You won't be the first guy to upgrade their 8.3's, 6.3's and ERD's. Could you elaborate? Did you once own them and change it up?
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Post by eman on Jan 19, 2010 19:16:09 GMT -5
I hope its not the THX certification.. As chuckienut stated imagine three XPA-1s across the fronts. That IMO would be an upgrade. The AT stuff seems close to what you have know.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2010 19:44:24 GMT -5
The AT stuff seems close to what you have know. They are both designed with help from Vance Dickason. Many of the same design characteristics. I'm sure there are sound differences of course, but it appears that the build and design quality are on the same plane.
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 20, 2010 12:49:33 GMT -5
I've got an XPA-5 currently driving 8.3 mains, 6.3 center and 2 ERD surrounds. Uncle Sam is going to give me a little more refund than I thought I was going to get and I'm considering an upgrade to an Atlantic Technology 8200e 5.0 system. I can get a great deal on it but I'm still left wondering what sonic differences I might get out of this upgrade. Has anyone heard both? What general opinions are there of what results I will hear. Thanks. My room is acoustically treated and my components are listed in my sig. I haven't heard the AT's, but I am currently trying out the 8.3, 6.3 ERD combo and comparing them against a B&W 804s, HTM3s. And honestly the Emo's put up a darn good fight against the B&W's. I haven't completely decided yet, but I may very well keep the Emo's and get rid of the B&W's as the extra cost just isn't justified. However I will say that the one thing that may be better about the AT's compared to the Emo's is the exact same driver setup for the front 3. In reality I haven't noticed a problem with this in veiwing movies or multichannel music. But doing white/pink noise tests and the Audyssey ping noise I can tell a slight difference between the 8.3 and 6.3's tone. This may very well be where the B&W's pull ahead of the Emo's, since the 804 and HTM3 are also an exact driver match. But my take on it is the Emo's and the AT's are so similar in design that the price wouldn't be worth it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2010 21:47:33 GMT -5
However I will say that the one thing that may be better about the AT's compared to the Emo's is the exact same driver setup for the front 3. In reality I haven't noticed a problem with this in veiwing movies or multichannel music. But doing white/pink noise tests and the Audyssey ping noise I can tell a slight difference between the 8.3 and 6.3's tone. This may very well be where the B&W's pull ahead of the Emo's, since the 804 and HTM3 are also an exact driver match. It isn't only having the exact same drivers but more importantly the orientation of the enclosure and the placement of the drivers within that enclosure. The very best LCR setup is to have all three front speakers the exact same speaker all vertically positioned. Unfortunately, this is usually not practical, although I know we have at least one member here who has three 6.3's all in the vertical orientation behind his screen for the LCR. Even when a manufacturer puts the exact same drivers in the center speaker as in the left and right speakers, placing the center speaker in a horizontal orientation causes some differences in the voicing/timbre match. I think you might find this same slight difference even with the B&W's 804/HTM3 when using the very difficult noise or tone comparison test. Hearing only a "slight" difference is usually the best you can hope for. It is of course most important to have at least the same exact tweeter which all three systems do have. Even in the situation as I mentioned above where one has three identically positioned 6.3's, one might still have a very slight difference due to the position of the left and right speakers as to their nearness to the wall or other boundaries compared to the position of the center 6.3. The 6.3 was very well designed to match the 8.3 and fortunately did not use the common D'appolito configuration.
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Animo
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Post by Animo on Jan 21, 2010 11:23:58 GMT -5
The D'appolito array, or MTM would make an ideal set up for L/C/R, since they would usually be identical. The 6.3, along with the 8.3, were designed as mirrored speakers.....either orienting the tweeters to the inside of the sound stage or the outside...depending on preference. While 3 of either can be used, the horizontal use of the 6.3 for center is actually a pretty decent compromise, considering most people are unable to use 3 identically vertically placed speakers across the front sound stage.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 21, 2010 15:05:46 GMT -5
So the 8200e LR and C combo would or would not give me that MTM? What about B&W CM9's. Anyone here own these or have heard them?
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 21, 2010 16:35:04 GMT -5
So the 8200e LR and C combo would or would not give me that MTM? What about B&W CM9's. Anyone here own these or have heard them? It looks to me that the 8200 is an MTM (mid-tweeter-mid) type setup. I don't know nearly enough about the technical aspects of that arrangement to comment on it, I will let others. I do know about B&W's though. I have not heard the CM9's, I have heard the CM1's and CM7's. I don't think the CM9's would be an upgrade from the 8.3's. Like I said I am currently running 8.3's and a set of 804s's and the 8.3's are putting up a good fight against the B&W's. The CM9 is no where near as good as an 804s , and if the 8.3 can't beat an 804, there is no way a CM9 will beat an 8.3. The B&W's also have a fairly distinct sound, that for most people is either love or hate. I happen to love it. Some call them bright, or even harsh, I just think they are crystal clear. If you haven't hear dany B&W's, you need to listen to some before you buy them, thats for sure. If you are really itching to upgrade I may be selling my 804s and HTM3s soon, if I decide the the B&W's aren't worth the price premium. They are better than the Emo's for sure, but I'm not sure they are worth it to me. I'll decide within the next week or 2.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 21, 2010 16:45:32 GMT -5
So the 8200e LR and C combo would or would not give me that MTM? What about B&W CM9's. Anyone here own these or have heard them? It looks to me that the 8200 is an MTM (mid-tweeter-mid) type setup. I don't know nearly enough about the technical aspects of that arrangement to comment on it, I will let others. I do know about B&W's though. I have not heard the CM9's, I have heard the CM1's and CM7's. I don't think the CM9's would be an upgrade from the 8.3's. Like I said I am currently running 8.3's and a set of 804s's and the 8.3's are putting up a good fight against the B&W's. The CM9 is no where near as good as an 804s , and if the 8.3 can't beat an 804, there is no way a CM9 will beat an 8.3. The B&W's also have a fairly distinct sound, that for most people is either love or hate. I happen to love it. Some call them bright, or even harsh, I just think they are crystal clear. If you haven't hear dany B&W's, you need to listen to some before you buy them, thats for sure. If you are really itching to upgrade I may be selling my 804s and HTM3s soon, if I decide the the B&W's aren't worth the price premium. They are better than the Emo's for sure, but I'm not sure they are worth it to me. I'll decide within the next week or 2. Yeah, I thought that the 8200e series was an MTM design, well, that's what I read anyway. I've never seen them or heard them however. Maybe I just don't have my 8.3/6.3s set up right or can tweak them in some way to get them to sound a bit better. Should I switch the L with the R to see if that makes a difference? Are there any tweaks to the settings I can make? I'm just not getting that 360 degree soundfield that I want. Like the richness/fullness is lacking if that makes sense. Any help? Perhaps I'm looking to upgrade and I don't need to.
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jlafrenz
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Post by jlafrenz on Jan 21, 2010 16:56:58 GMT -5
There are some different setups that you can do to give you better sound. Can you tell us more specefically how your gear is setup. Things such as room layout and measurements, where you currently have your speakers located, and your seating position.
One thing to keep in mind is that the source will have a lot to do with the sound you are getting to. Some things just aren't recorded very will and don't have that presence.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 21, 2010 17:08:57 GMT -5
There are some different setups that you can do to give you better sound. Can you tell us more specefically how your gear is setup. Things such as room layout and measurements, where you currently have your speakers located, and your seating position. One thing to keep in mind is that the source will have a lot to do with the sound you are getting to. Some things just aren't recorded very will and don't have that presence. Sure, no problem. First of all, I do have some acoustical treatments in my 15' x 30' x 8' room. Tri-traps up front and absorbers on the side walls for the L/R. My seating is about 15' from the screen wall. My mains are about 2' out from the screen wall toed in toward main listening position. Because of the width of my screen, they are about 6' from the center 6.3 on either side. My ERDs are just behind listening position about 2-3' above ear level. I just noticed that my center 6.3 is sort of low. It sits about level with the 2 woofers on the 8.3s. Maybe I should try raising it up? Also, I have my crossover set at 80hz. Maybe I should try adjusting that to see what difference it makes?
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Post by shawmcbigdis on Jan 21, 2010 17:41:36 GMT -5
There are some different setups that you can do to give you better sound. Can you tell us more specefically how your gear is setup. Things such as room layout and measurements, where you currently have your speakers located, and your seating position. One thing to keep in mind is that the source will have a lot to do with the sound you are getting to. Some things just aren't recorded very will and don't have that presence. Sure, no problem. First of all, I do have some acoustical treatments in my 15' x 30' x 8' room. Tri-traps up front and absorbers on the side walls for the L/R. My seating is about 15' from the screen wall. My mains are about 2' out from the screen wall toed in toward main listening position. Because of the width of my screen, they are about 6' from the center 6.3 on either side. My ERDs are just behind listening position about 2-3' above ear level. I just noticed that my center 6.3 is sort of low. It sits about level with the 2 woofers on the 8.3s. Maybe I should try raising it up? Also, I have my crossover set at 80hz. Maybe I should try adjusting that to see what difference it makes? What speakers did you have before the Emo's? Did they have the large sound stage and 3d sound you want? I'm wondering if it's a room problem, not a speaker problem. That's what I have by the way, no matter what I can't get a very large sound stage in my room. As for the 6.3, if it is lower than the 8.3's it should at least be tilted up so that the tweeter points at your ear level. Perhaps the room is over damped, have you tried removing the panels from the side walls? Usually you want to dampen the first reflections, but maybe for some reason it's just not working in your room? Maybe instead of upgrading speakers you should buy a stand alone Audyssey EQ? The Audyssey included in my Onkyo helped a lot in my room. I still haven't gotten the huge sound stage I want but it did help a little bit, it helped a lot with bass response also.
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jlafrenz
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Post by jlafrenz on Jan 21, 2010 18:33:15 GMT -5
It sounds like you have it set up fairly well. I am in a similar situation where my seating distance is further away than my speakers are wide. Ideally I would be sitting a bit closer, but really isn't possible in my room. You may want to try pointing your speakers straight forward because toeing them in shortens where the sweet spot is in your situation. The other thing to do is make sure that in your processor you have all the distances set for how far your seating is away from each speaker. After that, level match all the speakers so they play at the same level.
Do you have any acoustic panels on the back wall? Just curious if there is any cancellation at your listening position. Sitting in the dead center of the room isn't always a good idea.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 21:07:55 GMT -5
Some clarification here from my limited knowledge of MTM. D'Appolito is well known for the MTM (midrange-tweeter-midrange, horizontally) configuration. It consists of a center channel speaker that has a single tweeter flanked on the sides by two midrange drivers. Note, this is in a horizontal orientation (not vertical). The common noted complaint using this driver configuration is a sound anomaly that is called "lobing" which causes different sound characteristics in the center speaker versus from the left and right speakers which many times have the same exact divers but in a vertical orientation. That is why I mentioned that IMO it is desirable that the Emo 6.3 did not use the D'Appolito configuration. In fact, neither does the Atlantic Technology center in the 8200e system (nor does the B&W HTM3). To clarify even more, here is a quote from a post at the Audioholics Forum: ".....Center channel speakers are (usually) only sideways (horizontal) so they'll fit atop a TV, at the expense of sound quality. Sideways speakers are seldom a good idea regardless of configuration. Having drivers in a line creates interference patterns that mucks up the sound; vertically aligning the drivers places those interference patterns where they are less objectionable. There's nothing wrong with the D'Appolito configuration (also known as MTM, for Midrange, Tweeter, Midrange) when it's vertical......" Center channel speakers are normally placed on their sides for practical placement reasons and not sound reasons. Here is a photo of a typical center channel speaker with a D'Appolito/MTM configuration: Here are photos of the Atlantic Tech and Emo center speakers. Note that the AT center (a little hard to see thru the speaker cover) has the the same three drivers (plus two) as the tower but the three smaller drivers are in a vertical orientation (exactly the same as in the tower) and not in a horizontal D'Appolito/ATM configuration. The Emo 6.3 also has two mid range speakers and one tweeter but they are not in a horizontal orientation. None of the speakers mentioned above (AT, Emo & B&W) use the D'Appolito/MTM orientation.
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Post by southpaw on Jan 21, 2010 23:16:12 GMT -5
What speakers did you have before the Emo's? Did they have the large sound stage and 3d sound you want? I'm wondering if it's a room problem, not a speaker problem. That's what I have by the way, no matter what I can't get a very large sound stage in my room. As for the 6.3, if it is lower than the 8.3's it should at least be tilted up so that the tweeter points at your ear level. Perhaps the room is over damped, have you tried removing the panels from the side walls? Usually you want to dampen the first reflections, but maybe for some reason it's just not working in your room? Maybe instead of upgrading speakers you should buy a stand alone Audyssey EQ? The Audyssey included in my Onkyo helped a lot in my room. I still haven't gotten the huge sound stage I want but it did help a little bit, it helped a lot with bass response also. Thanks Shawn, jlafrenz and chuckienuts. I appreciate the help! And thanks for clearing up that MTM confusion, chuckie. My Emo's were an upgrade over what I had previously (AV123 X-series). Naturally, I got a noticeable upgrade when got my Emos but now I feel like they aren't performing the way they should. I don't know what it is - I guess I'm more picky now or maybe it's just a case of "upgradeitis". I'm going to raise the center a bit to get it in line with the towers and I'll also not toe them in as much as they currently are. I'm using my Pio Elite SC-07 as my processor and I do employ MCACC calibration. I also level matched using a Radio Shack SPL meter. Also, distances are just about spot on.
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