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Post by mariof16 on Jan 20, 2010 14:03:35 GMT -5
Well the OP asked what our opinions are for the two pre/pros and gave an outstanding price for the integra, so in my opinion, I think he should jump all over a great deal on a great pre/pro. I never said in my post that I think the UMC-1 is an inferior product, I just think it is funny to give the OP advice saying that it is almost certain that the UMC-1 will sound better than the Onkyo/Integra and any other "Mainstream" pre/pro. I just don't agree with that advice. Also, in my opinion, the wait list has more to do with dollar/performance than overall performance. If money was no object for everyone on the wait list, I am pretty certain it would be much shorter. In the brand new Pre/Pro market, the UMC-1 has zero competition, but for a few hundred dollars more, like in the OPs situation, I think the Onkyo/Integra is a worthy opponent with tons of features that in some cases, outclass the UMC-1. I don't have any beef with your opinion and was talking more about some of the other posts. The Integra at 1k is a good deal. I base my audio comparison observation on the fact I used to work for a mass market audio company and understand the feature/price/quality balance that Japanese engineers employ. The balance will almost always go to features because that feeds the machine and drives sales year to year. This has created a niche for smaller companies to fill in terms of audio quality. So based on Emotiva's past performance and using mass market products as targets, I don't see a problem with the generalization. I never said for sure that it does sound better, I haven't heard it yet and disclosed that in my post. I simply said that I and most others waiting would be shocked if it didn't. If it doesn't, then I won't keep it. I don't think you are completely right on the price comparison either. Myself and many others could easily afford more expensive units. Many have "downgraded" from products that are supposed to be better, but are really just more expensive. For me, I get a thrill in buying something that outperforms products costing 2-3 times more. Maybe I'm in the minority there. Fair enough, you can't always agree with everyone. ;D I just think in the OPs situation, it seems like he wants a Pre/Pro sooner rather than later and he has a great deal in front of him with the Integra. It may or may not sound better, but either way it is a matter of opinion anyways.  |
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Post by jason1976 on Jan 20, 2010 15:59:04 GMT -5
Yep! I wouldn't blame him! :-)
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Post by billmac on Jan 20, 2010 17:14:58 GMT -5
I agree that the OP should jump on the 9.9, at that price he can always sell it at close to the price paid if he gets the UMC-1 and prefers that. Also to say that the UMC-1 will sound better than the Onkyo/Integra with out hearing both or doing a direct comparison is not sound advice IMO . I believe cost is definitely a factor as to why many have waited for the UMC-1. Especially for those that are getting the 40% discount, who wouldn't . The other factor of course is Emotiva's track record for excellent products at unbeatable prices. If (a big if ;D) the UMC-1 was the same cost as the 9.9/886 I'm sure many would not have waited for the UMC-1 if they could get a comparable product at the same price. But thats not the case as far as cost is concerned  . Bill |
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Post by rvallejos on Jan 20, 2010 18:13:32 GMT -5
Ya I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Integra because they said supply was running low. As far as where I got that price ($945) I would assume any Integra dealer could get that as I just looked online and found the closest one. Also that is on "B" stock but it is new with a 2 year warranty. Im sure with the help of my XPA 2 and XPA 5 I will be happy.
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Post by jason1976 on Jan 20, 2010 18:16:32 GMT -5
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Post by jason1976 on Jan 20, 2010 18:48:38 GMT -5
Ya I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the Integra because they said supply was running low. As far as where I got that price ($945) I would assume any Integra dealer could get that as I just looked online and found the closest one. Also that is on "B" stock but it is new with a 2 year warranty. Im sure with the help of my XPA 2 and XPA 5 I will be happy. You will be enjoying your new toy long before I will! :-) |
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Post by rvallejos on Jan 20, 2010 19:06:33 GMT -5
ya , was that a picture of an Onkyo or Integra? From what I understand they are very similar if not exactly  |
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Post by billmac on Jan 20, 2010 19:45:52 GMT -5
Have you heard the 9.9/886? Are you an engineer that has skill level to design or critique the design of an audio component? How does build quality effect overall SQ? Can you point out the changes you would make to improve the design that would improve SQ . Here is a better shot of the 9.8 (essentially the same as the 9.9) showing the Toroidal transformer . I'm no engineer but it seems like a good design that functions and sounds quite well . www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11265386&&#post11265386Bill |
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Jan 20, 2010 19:54:30 GMT -5
...Still no link as to where one can get a 9.9 for under $1K.  |
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Post by rvallejos on Jan 20, 2010 22:04:02 GMT -5
Like I said I called the Integra dealer closest to me and asked them for the price, $945 and that's what I paid, I could give you the name of the dealer if you would like but I never looked for an online source because I wanted to by locally. Also Integra does not allow internet sales as far as I know
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Post by jason1976 on Jan 21, 2010 0:44:39 GMT -5
Have you heard the 9.9/886? Are you an engineer that has skill level to design or critique the design of an audio component? How does build quality effect overall SQ? Can you point out the changes you would make to improve the design that would improve SQ . Here is a better shot of the 9.8 (essentially the same as the 9.9) showing the Toroidal transformer . I'm no engineer but it seems like a good design that functions and sounds quite well . www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11265386&&#post11265386Bill Hi Bill, I'm not an electrical engineer by trade, but was involved with NPD. I have heard the Integra and I think it sounds pretty good. The biggest opportunity for improvement is just having a more logically designed and better separated chassis. In a better design typically you will see more shielding around the digital chipsets and sometimes they will be enclosed in a separate case to prevent EMI. With the Integra, the digital inputs (to the left) and HDMI inputs and video chips (above) are all adjacent to and intertwined with the rest of the analog boards. If you look at the UMC internal pictures, you'll notice the HDMI and digital inputs are pretty well separated from the rest of the analog circuitry. There is even a nice dividing wall between the power supply and analog circuitry. With more mainstream manufacturers you don't start getting improved chassis design till you reach their "reference" levels. Also, most mass market designs tend to run long lengths of unshielded board connecting cables. These are basically antennaes for interference in the chassis. If you notice the UMC, they have minimized this and have minimal cable runs from board to board. Some of this can be filtered by using extra capacitors, but if you are designing a component from scratch it would be best to minimize the interference before it starts and not introduce extra filtering to get rid of noise. If you would like to read more on this here is an engineering blurb on the subject. www.engineersedge.com/instrumentation/emi_rfi_shielding.htmThese types of tweaks and designs can improve transparency as well as noise floor and generally lean more into improving the audio quality of the unit. We have gone back and forth with preamp voltage differences in the past. I was reading somewhere that an Integra user actually bought some XLR to RCA adaptors to take advantage of a higher voltage output on the unit and noticed better dynamics. I think they bump it up to 2 volts instead of one for the XLRs. Again, with most manufacturers you are looking at 5-7 volts. Don't get me wrong, I think the Integra products are nice, but there are some opportunities for improvement that would hinder it from being what I would deem as a high end design. Even the few steps Emotiva has taken to make the chassis built better I think will show in the end in terms of audio quality. In the end it will all come down to a side by side comparison, so we'll see how it actually plays out. |
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Post by billmac on Jan 21, 2010 7:41:54 GMT -5
Have you heard the 9.9/886? Are you an engineer that has skill level to design or critique the design of an audio component? How does build quality effect overall SQ? Can you point out the changes you would make to improve the design that would improve SQ . Here is a better shot of the 9.8 (essentially the same as the 9.9) showing the Toroidal transformer . I'm no engineer but it seems like a good design that functions and sounds quite well . www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11265386&&#post11265386Bill Hi Bill, I'm not an electrical engineer by trade, but was involved with NPD. I have heard the Integra and I think it sounds pretty good. The biggest opportunity for improvement is just having a more logically designed and better separated chassis. In a better design typically you will see more shielding around the digital chipsets and sometimes they will be enclosed in a separate case to prevent EMI. With the Integra, the digital inputs (to the left) and HDMI inputs and video chips (above) are all adjacent to and intertwined with the rest of the analog boards. If you look at the UMC internal pictures, you'll notice the HDMI and digital inputs are pretty well separated from the rest of the analog circuitry. There is even a nice dividing wall between the power supply and analog circuitry. With more mainstream manufacturers you don't start getting improved chassis design till you reach their "reference" levels. Also, most mass market designs tend to run long lengths of unshielded board connecting cables. These are basically antennaes for interference in the chassis. If you notice the UMC, they have minimized this and have minimal cable runs from board to board. Some of this can be filtered by using extra capacitors, but if you are designing a component from scratch it would be best to minimize the interference before it starts and not introduce extra filtering to get rid of noise. If you would like to read more on this here is an engineering blurb on the subject. www.engineersedge.com/instrumentation/emi_rfi_shielding.htmThese types of tweaks and designs can improve transparency as well as noise floor and generally lean more into improving the audio quality of the unit. We have gone back and forth with preamp voltage differences in the past. I was reading somewhere that an Integra user actually bought some XLR to RCA adaptors to take advantage of a higher voltage output on the unit and noticed better dynamics. I think they bump it up to 2 volts instead of one for the XLRs. Again, with most manufacturers you are looking at 5-7 volts. Don't get me wrong, I think the Integra products are nice, but there are some opportunities for improvement that would hinder it from being what I would deem as a high end design. Even the few steps Emotiva has taken to make the chassis built better I think will show in the end in terms of audio quality. In the end it will all come down to a side by side comparison, so we'll see how it actually plays out. Hi Jason, Thanks for your response and you most certainly have an idea on how a prepro design would be best arranged. You make valid points in your post with my only thoughts being would the improvements you suggest make differences that are audible? I am sure components with very high THD etc. will be audible but some small differences talked about (.001 vs. .01 THD) I can not see how they would be audible. But I could be totally wrong in my assumption. I know many talk about specs. between different components with some being better than others but can the differences be audible in normal day to day listening? The preout voltage has been debated quite a bit but I have no problem driving my amp but I know some with certain amps need the higher voltage to properly drive their amps. I would think Onkyo would have a higher voltage especially on their dedicated prepros . I will read through the link you provided and I am sure learn a few things . Thanks again, Bill |
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Post by Dan Laufman on Jan 21, 2010 8:21:14 GMT -5
Hi Guy's, Just my two cents worth on this subject... I have had many very nice processors in the theater here and have done direct comparisons between them under very tightly controlled conditions. I did not expect to see "huge" differences between them... but I was wrong! Wow, was I wrong! There are very audible differences in the sonic signatures between the UMC-1 and several other highly regarded units we have tested. They are not subtle, and it is not just me that has heard the difference. Of course, I'm partial to the UMC-1, but what I am telling you is real. Also, there are big differences in video quality too. And build quality, and appearance. Another area that you live with EVERY day is ergonomics; ease of use. And hey, there is that cost thing too... I'm not saying that the other products are bad, but there ARE big differences between products from different manufacturers. Mercedes and BMW are fine automobiles, but the driving and owner experience is completely different. You get the idea. It pays to look around and trust your judgment, eyes, and ultimately your ears. Isn't this a great hobby?? Big Dan |
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Post by airliner on Jan 21, 2010 8:26:43 GMT -5
Hi Dan, hallo from Italy
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Post by billmac on Jan 21, 2010 9:09:16 GMT -5
Hi Dan, Could you elaborate on the differences? Would you be referring to digital and analog surces or just analog? I respect you and the products your company sells but I have to be honest and say that I think you might be a little biased here . I have done direct A-B comparisons between my Onkyo 886, the USP-1 and the Parasound 2100 (no subwoofer used). The comparisons were for CD playback using the Pure mode of the 886 to see if there are huge differences between the 886's analog section and a dedicated analog preamp. Of course the 886 is not known for its analog section but I was surprised by what I heard. That is that there is not a huge difference in SQ between the 886 and the USP-1/2100 IMO. Subtle differences in SQ yes but certainly not huge differences. So unless the UMC-1 has an improved analog section over the USP-1 I am curious as to what the huge differences are . I have no reason to not believe you when you say there are different sonic signatures. But if the UMC-1 has a different sound than other highly regarded units would that mean the UMC-1 is somewhat changing the sound characteristics of the material being listened to? I doubt this as Emotiva products are known for neutral uncolored sound. So what would be causing this difference? What other units were used for a comparison to the UMC-1? From the reviews of UMC-1 owners the video processing is excellent. This is very true . This is point that goes without saying . This is true as well but everyone has there preferences . Excellent advice, no doubt. It sure is, it is consuming at times but well worth the effort . I am sure there will be some negative comments about my above questions . But I have found the Emotiva staff is very patient when tough straight forward questions are asked here on the Lounge much more so than some members here. Thank you for your time . Bill |
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Post by Dan Laufman on Jan 21, 2010 9:46:03 GMT -5
Hi Bill,
I'm sorry to say that I can't tell you the exact models of processors I am referring to, as it is our policy to never publicly critique another brand. What customers have to say among themselves is different, but it won't come from us here at Emotiva.
Having said that, you can surely guess who we consider to be our competitors in the market place and we pay close attention to their products.
We have a very "brand specific" approach to design and we spend a lot of time on the layout and the choice of parts and topologies. We also spend quite a bit of time listening. Open up one of our units and then open up a unit from one of the mainstream brands and it does not take an engineer to understand that we take a different approach to design, layout, and fabrication.
Again, I am not saying that anyones product is "bad", I'm just saying that I can hear significant differences in the SQ of these different models, both in the digital and the analog paths.
By the way, some of products we have auditioned are excellent. They also cost 4-5 times the price of a UMC-1.
I should probably just keep quiet and leave it to you our customers to decide these things for yourselves. We'll stick to our knitting and try to bring you the best products we know how to build and let all of you decide for yourselves.
Best regards,
Big Dan
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Post by jason1976 on Jan 21, 2010 11:16:40 GMT -5
Hi Bill,
I don't really read through specs that much anymore, mostly because there are so many different ways to report them and manufacturers are often influenced by the power of marketing to make products look better. As to the types of differences in terms of specs that you'll hear with a better design, well unfortunately there are just too many other factors that come into play to say for sure and I couldn't tell you just by looking at a picture. :-)
Back to your observation about comparing the preamps, to my knowledge the Onkyo Pure mode is just defeating some of the video circuits and displays in the unit. If you hear that much of a difference in Pure mode I would have to assume that there are some noisy circuits in there somewhere that degrade the signal.
The ideal situation for multichannel music and movies would be of course to be in "Pure" mode all of the time. So one doesn't have to select when they want their source to sound better.
The end goal of course is the best sound quality. So if you do that through a Pure mode or through design techniques, then it is up to the customer to decide what works best for their situation. The old adage is always true that there is more than one way to skin a cat! (no cats were harmed during the typing of this message) :-)
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Post by beekermartin on Jan 21, 2010 11:25:11 GMT -5
I appreciate Dan's opinions and for posting them here. I assume he has tested the 886/9.9 extensively. It is one of the most talked about processors on these boards. It also was available for very close to the same price as the UMC-1 so many people here do own it.
I believe there could be a difference in SQ between the UMC-1 and 886. How much of a difference is the question. Everyones setup, room, sources, musical tastes, etc, vary too much to say if the difference will be noticeable and if so if it is an improvement. That is why I want to test the UMC-1 myself so I can find out if there is an improvement in SQ in my setup with what I listen to.
I doubt the UMC-1 can beat the video options of the 886 but I could be wrong. I don't use the 886 video options with HMDI because my projector has one of the best video chips available. I do use them with component when I am using my RP CRT.
The 886 does have a few more features that may or may not be important to you. Some are to me but they aren't deal breakers if the UMC-1's SQ is a lot better than the 886. The only way to find out is to test them side by side. Hopefully I will be able to do that soon. I am still a bit nervous about the UMC-1 with all the reported problems I have read here. I know most are minor and will be corrected with a firmware update. Still the 886 has worked perfectly without one issue. I have enough random problems in my setup and I don't want to add more.
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Post by alabamaboy on Jan 21, 2010 11:43:06 GMT -5
Still the 886 has worked perfectly without one issue. I have enough random problems in my setup and I don't want to add more. I have a similar dilemma. My Yamaha RX-V1800 has worked flawlessly (with matching BD2900 & JVC RS20) for 18 months, I'm nervous "upgrading" to the UMC-1. But of course I will in a few months beacause of this sickness! |
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Post by beekermartin on Jan 21, 2010 12:06:12 GMT -5
I waited for ever to upgrade from my Yamaha RX-V1 for that reason. It worked perfectly from the day I plugged it in. I felt like I was cheating on it when I upgraded to seperates. I think I shed a tear when I packaged it up to ship it to its new owner.  |
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