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Post by Mike Ronesia on Mar 19, 2010 2:40:44 GMT -5
Newbie here, when you say crosstalk what exactly are you hearing? basically its when a amp channel affects another by leaking information to that channel. That I get but what would it sound like? Hiss, crackle, distortion?
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Post by Stevens on Mar 19, 2010 2:51:59 GMT -5
In the cases where I have heard crosstalk or cross-channel bleeding (i.e. not on the UPA-7 but on my Yamaha receiver, on several PC sound cards, etc.), it sounded like the music was playing on a channel where there should be silence, but it was playing at a much lower volume & with less dynamics and much more noise/hissing. Basically, the music signal bleeds across and produces both sound & noise where it should not.
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Post by Mike Ronesia on Mar 19, 2010 5:12:47 GMT -5
Thanks, that makes sense and helps me understand. I have not been aware of ever hearing this.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 19, 2010 9:01:55 GMT -5
Like the first one I had issue with the crosstalk is dependant on volume level(ie input voltage). In other words if I crank up the volume on the cd player to "zone 2", then the crosstalk becomes more evident across the other 5 speakers.
For those trying to mimic what Im hearing I would suggest having a 2nd pair of speakers hooked up in another room, so that the room with the main set of speakers is relatively quiet. As you crank up the volume on one set of speakers louder and louder, the crosstalk will rise in linear fashion with it.
I talked with a fellow Agon member who is 15 minutes south of me who also has a UPA-7, he is going to swing up to my place between noon and 1 ockock to see if the crosstalk can be replicated on his unit as well. He has an "A stock" UPA-7.
And for those who think Im giving the UPA-7 a bad rap Im not, but there is audible crosstalk on the units, which IMO makes it hard to recommend one for doing a 5.1 channel setup and a powered zone 2 combined.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 19, 2010 10:01:40 GMT -5
And let me expand on this a bit further how I possibly may be hearing crosstalk and others cant.
My powered zone 2 consists of rather power hungry set of 5 ohm Magnepan MMGW speakers with a low real world sensitivity of around 81-83db on 2 channels of the UPA-7. Also in line with those Magnepans is a set of KEF PSW2500's hooked up via speaker line level. The other 5 speakers consist of a combination of Kef iQ1's and XQ10's which have a higher sensitivity rating of around 87db. When I play the HT upstairs in the bedroom at near reference levels, there is not one bit of audible channel bleed going into the magnepans 2 floors down even at relatively high volume levels. But if you put your hand up on the rubber surrounds of the PSW2500 subs you can feel the music signal playing through them(but its not audible to the ears).
Now when the roles are reversed and I play the magnepans at normal volume levels, the Kef's upstairs have audible channel bleed. The Magnepans need though about 4 times the power to get them to the same audio levels as when playing the kefs. So this may be why I am able to hear channel crosstalk and others can't. I have at LEAST a 6db sensitivity difference between my HT speakers and zone 2 setups. That is rather significant, and may be why I am experiencing audible crosstalk and others aren't. That is why I think the UPA-7's are actually operating within spec. on crosstalk. But for my specific situation its just not acceptable, since I work out real early in the morning cranking the tunes and my wife is trying to sleep. The crosstalk in this situation is audible enough to wake her up and piss her off. I brought this up to a few "techs" at Emo before I bought the UPA-7, and they said I should have 0 audible crosstalk. Under normal circumstances using similiar speakers with similiar sensitivity values this may be the case. But in my situation this so far isnt the case. And the detailed reason is given. I'll get to try one more UPA-7 within the next 60-90 minutes for a 3rd try, but I think the results are going to be the same. I'll let you all know.
And last, don't take this as a knock against the amp, pretty much all multichannel amps have crosstalk, some are better than others, and honestly I feel the UPA-7 falls somewhere in the middle of the pack/average in this regard as its crosstalk spec. is listed as >80db. The 2 Onkyo AVR's though were better in this regard and had no audible crosstalk using the same speaker combo. So don't take this as a knock against it. Take it as all my other posts, blunt, honest, to the point. Once I try the 3rd UPA amp, Ill post right back if there is any difference, better or worse(or the same).
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Post by Stevens on Mar 19, 2010 10:15:56 GMT -5
Since you've already tried two of them and had the same issue on both, I'd be surprised if your third unit was any different. Seems you'll be better off with separate amps for the Zone 1 and Zone 2 sets of speakers. Maybe an UPA-5 and an XPA-2, or something along those lines?
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 19, 2010 10:36:59 GMT -5
Since you've already tried two of them and had the same issue on both, I'd be surprised if your third unit was any different. Seems you'll be better off with separate amps for the Zone 1 and Zone 2 sets of speakers. Maybe an UPA-5 and an XPA-2, or something along those lines? I was originally going to do a UPA-5 and a UPA-2, but I was assured that there would be no crosstalk issues if I went with a UPA-7..........and I dont think that advice was bad or misleading, I just dont think Emo took into account the sensitivity differences or the effects the different speakers could have in my case. Again, Im going to give it a 3rd try just to be sure I didnt get 2 bunk/out of spec. amps............can't hurt to try and I want my posts to be accurate and not misleading.
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 19, 2010 17:30:20 GMT -5
Update, 3rd UPA-7 was swapped in, identical results. Great amp regardless, but in my scenario the crosstalk out of em is just not jiving with me(or more specifically, my wife early in the morning). So I have to decide if I should just keep it and pony up some more cashola for another pair of surrounds and go 7.1, and pick up another dedicated 2 channel amp for the workout room, or swap it out for maybe an XPA-5 and of course another 2 channel amp...............
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Post by jlafrenz on Mar 19, 2010 18:53:16 GMT -5
So is it the amp or the processor that is bleeding the signal. It seems to only happen when you have zone 2 in use. After 3 amps I would be suspecting something else in the system. Have you tried any other processors to verify this? It is a good idea that you are having someone come over with a unit you know works, as this could help determine where the crosstalk is happening.
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 19, 2010 19:25:34 GMT -5
So is it the amp or the processor that is bleeding the signal. It seems to only happen when you have zone 2 in use. After 3 amps I would be suspecting something else in the system. Have you tried any other processors to verify this? It is a good idea that you are having someone come over with a unit you know works, as this could help determine where the crosstalk is happening. Its the amp.....detailed reason stated above whether I use the UMC-1 or the adcom direct into the amp bypassing the processor.
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Post by roadrunner on Mar 19, 2010 19:30:12 GMT -5
So is it the amp or the processor that is bleeding the signal. It seems to only happen when you have zone 2 in use. After 3 amps I would be suspecting something else in the system. Have you tried any other processors to verify this? It is a good idea that you are having someone come over with a unit you know works, as this could help determine where the crosstalk is happening. That is what I was thinking, also. If not the UMC-1, could it be something else in your signal path that could be involved. I heard of something similar years ago, but in that case they were running through a speaker selector switch. The signal was bleeding through the switch to other speakers also connected thru that switch. Ntrain, have you doubled checked all of your cabling and wire runs? Is it possible you have a cable/wire acting as an antenna? It would be rare, but possible. With better than 80 dB of crosstalk rejection it just doesn't sound like the UPA-7 would be the cause... very puzzling.
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Post by ntrain42 on Mar 19, 2010 20:08:58 GMT -5
So is it the amp or the processor that is bleeding the signal. It seems to only happen when you have zone 2 in use. After 3 amps I would be suspecting something else in the system. Have you tried any other processors to verify this? It is a good idea that you are having someone come over with a unit you know works, as this could help determine where the crosstalk is happening. That is what I was thinking, also. If not the UMC-1, could it be something else in your signal path that could be involved. I heard of something similar years ago, but in that case they were running through a speaker selector switch. The signal was bleeding through the switch to other speakers also connected thru that switch. Ntrain, have you doubled checked all of your cabling and wire runs? Is it possible you have a cable/wire acting as an antenna? It would be rare, but possible. With better than 80 dB of crosstalk rejection it just doesn't sound like the UPA-7 would be the cause... very puzzling. Again, read above. Whether I went direct through the UMC-1 or bypassed it and used the cd player directly in there was crosstalk. And to expand on the crosstalk spec: >80db.........thats not exactly a stellar spec. Its about average. That means in my case that when Im playing the Magnepans at around 90db when I workout(and remember to account in the LOWER sensitivity of the Maggies over the HT speakers to the tune of 6-7db)I am getting around 15-20db of bleedthrough to the theatre speakers in reality. And thats about what Im hearing. And it has nothing to do with zone 2. Ive tried all different input combos,wiring etc. In fact to add further. I put a pair of the Kefs downstairs and brought the MMGW's upstairs and guess what? With one pair of Kefs playing downstairs, I could hear NO bleedthrough in the Maggies upstairs and a reduced amount bleedthrough on the other 3 channels running Kefs. It just backs up my finding. It was the same for all 3 UPA-7's which I had on hand today.
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Post by gzubeck on May 22, 2010 1:47:10 GMT -5
That is what I was thinking, also. If not the UMC-1, could it be something else in your signal path that could be involved. I heard of something similar years ago, but in that case they were running through a speaker selector switch. The signal was bleeding through the switch to other speakers also connected thru that switch. Ntrain, have you doubled checked all of your cabling and wire runs? Is it possible you have a cable/wire acting as an antenna? It would be rare, but possible. With better than 80 dB of crosstalk rejection it just doesn't sound like the UPA-7 would be the cause... very puzzling. Again, read above. Whether I went direct through the UMC-1 or bypassed it and used the cd player directly in there was crosstalk. And to expand on the crosstalk spec: >80db.........thats not exactly a stellar spec. Its about average. That means in my case that when Im playing the Magnepans at around 90db when I workout(and remember to account in the LOWER sensitivity of the Maggies over the HT speakers to the tune of 6-7db)I am getting around 15-20db of bleedthrough to the theatre speakers in reality. And thats about what Im hearing. And it has nothing to do with zone 2. Ive tried all different input combos,wiring etc. In fact to add further. I put a pair of the Kefs downstairs and brought the MMGW's upstairs and guess what? With one pair of Kefs playing downstairs, I could hear NO bleedthrough in the Maggies upstairs and a reduced amount bleedthrough on the other 3 channels running Kefs. It just backs up my finding. It was the same for all 3 UPA-7's which I had on hand today. Sounds like your stressing the amp out. It seems that amps tend to do strange things when your pushing them hard in ways they weren't designed to do. Are you driving two different loads with different requirements at the same time? It just seems to me that these multichannel amps were intended to be used in one circumstance at a time. It would be like trying to drive forward and backward at the same time. IMHO.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on May 22, 2010 12:00:55 GMT -5
Again, read above. Whether I went direct through the UMC-1 or bypassed it and used the cd player directly in there was crosstalk. And to expand on the crosstalk spec: >80db.........thats not exactly a stellar spec. Its about average. That means in my case that when Im playing the Magnepans at around 90db when I workout(and remember to account in the LOWER sensitivity of the Maggies over the HT speakers to the tune of 6-7db)I am getting around 15-20db of bleedthrough to the theatre speakers in reality. And thats about what Im hearing. And it has nothing to do with zone 2. Ive tried all different input combos,wiring etc. In fact to add further. I put a pair of the Kefs downstairs and brought the MMGW's upstairs and guess what? With one pair of Kefs playing downstairs, I could hear NO bleedthrough in the Maggies upstairs and a reduced amount bleedthrough on the other 3 channels running Kefs. It just backs up my finding. It was the same for all 3 UPA-7's which I had on hand today. Sounds like your stressing the amp out. It seems that amps tend to do strange things when your pushing them hard in ways they weren't designed to do. Are you driving two different loads with different requirements at the same time? It just seems to me that these multichannel amps were intended to be used in one circumstance at a time. It would be like trying to drive forward and backward at the same time. IMHO. COnsidering the low to moderate volumes I listen to, having 3 channels play a 4ohm load(center drives 2 8ohm speakers in parallel)and the other 4 play 8 ohms shouldnt be a problem. And normally when Im playing the Zone 2 speakers, the main HT speakers are OFF.
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Post by gzubeck on May 23, 2010 1:24:30 GMT -5
Sounds like your stressing the amp out. It seems that amps tend to do strange things when your pushing them hard in ways they weren't designed to do. Are you driving two different loads with different requirements at the same time? It just seems to me that these multichannel amps were intended to be used in one circumstance at a time. It would be like trying to drive forward and backward at the same time. IMHO. COnsidering the low to moderate volumes I listen to, having 3 channels play a 4ohm load(center drives 2 8ohm speakers in parallel)and the other 4 play 8 ohms shouldnt be a problem. And normally when Im playing the Zone 2 speakers, the main HT speakers are OFF. I wonder if there is a problem with your power supply to your amp. If the juice is dirty from the wall socket that can cause some problems. The other thing is that your cables maybe acting as antennas or your connections might not be very securely attached. Did you say earlier that you had electrostatic speakers attached somewhere in your system. I've heard that Stats are really power hungry and go down into low impedances. Also, Try having just one set of speakers with the same impedance attached at one time and see if you still have the same problem. Somewhere in your chain your dirtying up the signal or overly stressing the amp. Given that you've had the same problem with three different amps I would video record and send documentation to the manufacturer if possible showing your problems. I'm sure they would like to come up with a fix long term one way or another if you decide to keep or change your amps.
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Post by jannick on May 24, 2010 18:54:51 GMT -5
.. or ntrain42's competent testing have just shown that even in a great-value product from Emotiva there will be limitations at some point. I for one think it's valuable info for people looking to drive multiple zones of a single amp, and hopefully emotiva picks it up as a consideration for future revisions and information to base customer service on.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on May 25, 2010 22:47:52 GMT -5
COnsidering the low to moderate volumes I listen to, having 3 channels play a 4ohm load(center drives 2 8ohm speakers in parallel)and the other 4 play 8 ohms shouldnt be a problem. And normally when Im playing the Zone 2 speakers, the main HT speakers are OFF. I wonder if there is a problem with your power supply to your amp. If the juice is dirty from the wall socket that can cause some problems. The other thing is that your cables maybe acting as antennas or your connections might not be very securely attached. Did you say earlier that you had electrostatic speakers attached somewhere in your system. I've heard that Stats are really power hungry and go down into low impedances. Also, Try having just one set of speakers with the same impedance attached at one time and see if you still have the same problem. Somewhere in your chain your dirtying up the signal or overly stressing the amp. Given that you've had the same problem with three different amps I would video record and send documentation to the manufacturer if possible showing your problems. I'm sure they would like to come up with a fix long term one way or another if you decide to keep or change your amps. I tested 3 different UPA-7's, all had the identical same problem. If you read in detail my threads on how its an issue with my particular setup you will understand better. The crosstalk spec on the 3 units I had was within spec, but that spec is average to below average for a good multichannel amp in reality. This is a weakpoint in the design. For those who want to drive multiple zones I highly suggest and recommend running 2 seperate amps. I decided to keep the 7 channel amp(in the hopes that blu ray discs start coming out encoded in 7.1 audio(pretty much all are still in 5.1), and will probably pick up a 2nd 2 channel amp for zone 2 when funds allow for it.
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Post by gzubeck on May 29, 2010 14:36:38 GMT -5
I wonder if there is a problem with your power supply to your amp. If the juice is dirty from the wall socket that can cause some problems. The other thing is that your cables maybe acting as antennas or your connections might not be very securely attached. Did you say earlier that you had electrostatic speakers attached somewhere in your system. I've heard that Stats are really power hungry and go down into low impedances. Also, Try having just one set of speakers with the same impedance attached at one time and see if you still have the same problem. Somewhere in your chain your dirtying up the signal or overly stressing the amp. Given that you've had the same problem with three different amps I would video record and send documentation to the manufacturer if possible showing your problems. I'm sure they would like to come up with a fix long term one way or another if you decide to keep or change your amps. I tested 3 different UPA-7's, all had the identical same problem. If you read in detail my threads on how its an issue with my particular setup you will understand better. The crosstalk spec on the 3 units I had was within spec, but that spec is average to below average for a good multichannel amp in reality. This is a weakpoint in the design. For those who want to drive multiple zones I highly suggest and recommend running 2 seperate amps. I decided to keep the 7 channel amp(in the hopes that blu ray discs start coming out encoded in 7.1 audio(pretty much all are still in 5.1), and will probably pick up a 2nd 2 channel amp for zone 2 when funds allow for it. I was just throwing some ideas out there to think about in general. The point I was making about the amp is valid in the sense that if your using the amp simultaneously playing two sources at once you are going to stress out your power supply and cause all kinds problems. Your sound quality will go down regardless if you do this. You cannot drive two cars with one engine and hope for ideal results because now your driving twice the weight. In order to have really good specs I would think the costs to manufacture would triple for this 7 channel amp. If you don't think performance is not affected by multichannel amps, why is emotiva designing single channel amps with their own power supplies. The mono's increase the amount of power available to each single channel and the extra power and channel separation causes the amps to sound better and sweeter cause they're not stressed out. Stressing the amp out affects the whole frequency range especially in the higher tweeter range where we humans cringe with solid state harshness. If you only have space for one amp you will have to turn off one source at a time to get better results. I just don't see the logic in using two sources at the same time in the same amp and getting satisfactory results. The only way this could be done is if the amps were all mono designs within the same chassis. Other than that your dreaming of something that simply cannot be.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on May 29, 2010 15:32:26 GMT -5
I tested 3 different UPA-7's, all had the identical same problem. If you read in detail my threads on how its an issue with my particular setup you will understand better. The crosstalk spec on the 3 units I had was within spec, but that spec is average to below average for a good multichannel amp in reality. This is a weakpoint in the design. For those who want to drive multiple zones I highly suggest and recommend running 2 seperate amps. I decided to keep the 7 channel amp(in the hopes that blu ray discs start coming out encoded in 7.1 audio(pretty much all are still in 5.1), and will probably pick up a 2nd 2 channel amp for zone 2 when funds allow for it. I was just throwing some ideas out there to think about in general. The point I was making about the amp is valid in the sense that if your using the amp simultaneously playing two sources at once you are going to stress out your power supply and cause all kinds problems. Your sound quality will go down regardless if you do this. You cannot drive two cars with one engine and hope for ideal results because now your driving twice the weight. In order to have really good specs I would think the costs to manufacture would triple for this 7 channel amp. If you don't think performance is not affected by multichannel amps, why is emotiva designing single channel amps with their own power supplies. The mono's increase the amount of power available to each single channel and the extra power and channel separation causes the amps to sound better and sweeter cause they're not stressed out. Stressing the amp out affects the whole frequency range especially in the higher tweeter range where we humans cringe with solid state harshness. If you only have space for one amp you will have to turn off one source at a time to get better results. I just don't see the logic in using two sources at the same time in the same amp and getting satisfactory results. The only way this could be done is if the amps were all mono designs within the same chassis. Other than that your dreaming of something that simply cannot be. WHat your saying is really not the case. WHat Im doing is not stressing the amp out at all. THe UPA-7 is basically 7 indenpendant output boards drawing off a single large power supply. It is designed to run 7 different channels at once. WHen you play say a movie in 7.1, not all channels are being driven by the same load or output level. It varies CONSTANTLY. As long as the amp is being driven within/under its rated output ability and impedance loads it will be fine. See, you didnt read what I stated earlier. If I just run zone 2 BY ITSELF(that means only 2 channels are running on the UPA-7, the other 5 are SHUT OFF)with at most modest levels of power(that means between 2-16 watts continuous at most), cross talk occurs and is audible in the other 5 channels, even though they aren't playing or getting any input signal. Running 2 channels of the UPA-7 is not going to stress that amp out in any way shape or form. THe UPA-7 is designed to run all channels continously with variable impedance loads within its rated output spec. Running just 2 channels at lower power levels is not going to stress out the amp. Running all 7 channels within spec also is not going to stress out the amp. WIth my older Onkyo 906(Which also has a 7 channel internal amp), I can run 2 channels to zone 2, have the other 5 channels off and NOT hear any crosstalk whatsoever. THis is using the same speakers. The crosstalk spec. is significantly better with the Onkyo to the point where there is no audible crosstalk between any channels at any volume level.
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Post by gzubeck on May 29, 2010 17:50:46 GMT -5
I was just throwing some ideas out there to think about in general. The point I was making about the amp is valid in the sense that if your using the amp simultaneously playing two sources at once you are going to stress out your power supply and cause all kinds problems. Your sound quality will go down regardless if you do this. You cannot drive two cars with one engine and hope for ideal results because now your driving twice the weight. In order to have really good specs I would think the costs to manufacture would triple for this 7 channel amp. If you don't think performance is not affected by multichannel amps, why is emotiva designing single channel amps with their own power supplies. The mono's increase the amount of power available to each single channel and the extra power and channel separation causes the amps to sound better and sweeter cause they're not stressed out. Stressing the amp out affects the whole frequency range especially in the higher tweeter range where we humans cringe with solid state harshness. If you only have space for one amp you will have to turn off one source at a time to get better results. I just don't see the logic in using two sources at the same time in the same amp and getting satisfactory results. The only way this could be done is if the amps were all mono designs within the same chassis. Other than that your dreaming of something that simply cannot be. WHat your saying is really not the case. WHat Im doing is not stressing the amp out at all. THe UPA-7 is basically 7 indenpendant output boards drawing off a single large power supply. It is designed to run 7 different channels at once. WHen you play say a movie in 7.1, not all channels are being driven by the same load or output level. It varies CONSTANTLY. As long as the amp is being driven within/under its rated output ability and impedance loads it will be fine. See, you didnt read what I stated earlier. If I just run zone 2 BY ITSELF(that means only 2 channels are running on the UPA-7, the other 5 are SHUT OFF)with at most modest levels of power(that means between 2-16 watts continuous at most), cross talk occurs and is audible in the other 5 channels, even though they aren't playing or getting any input signal. Running 2 channels of the UPA-7 is not going to stress that amp out in any way shape or form. THe UPA-7 is designed to run all channels continously with variable impedance loads within its rated output spec. Running just 2 channels at lower power levels is not going to stress out the amp. Running all 7 channels within spec also is not going to stress out the amp. WIth my older Onkyo 906(Which also has a 7 channel internal amp), I can run 2 channels to zone 2, have the other 5 channels off and NOT hear any crosstalk whatsoever. THis is using the same speakers. The crosstalk spec. is significantly better with the Onkyo to the point where there is no audible crosstalk between any channels at any volume level. Man...this is one of those situations where unless you see what your trying to do it's almost impossible to guage your disatisfaction. I think I understand where your coming from with the crosstalk, but does the crosstalk affect the sound when playing your source in two channels at normal volume? Does it bleed through so much that the audio just plain stinks and destroys the imaging, soundstage, and overall sound quality? Have you listened to the amp in surround sound with 5 channels playing and are disatisfied with the whole surround sound experience? Your speaker wire could be acting like an antenna on the long runs. Are you using twisted pairs of reasonable guage (12)? Are you using any rfi shielding whatever? Unless we have an idea of your set-up its hard to tell. Does the crosstalk exist if the amps, source and speakers are closer together in the surround sound set-up? Are your cables somehow touching and causing leakage that way? Sometimes you have to subtract items from the set-up to minimalize all defective possibilities. Cause if the sound sucks with all the components close by and only running one source then you do have a problem and should return the amp as it doesn't meet your requirements. Last but not least there could be a possible design flaw that allows pollution between the power source and each individual amp module? Maybe the five channel amp combined with a two channel amp could be an altogether better solution due to channel over crowding in one 7 channel amp chassis itself. Amps do give off magnetic fields and can do strange things when too close tegether. There might not be enough space between each module inside this chasis to meet your sound quality criteria.
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