High Volume "shrillness"

[paintedklown]

Please excuse the silly thread title but I think it's fitting in this case.

I have recently purchased a USP-1 and I am running it to 2 UPA-1s into Alesis Monitor one MK II speakers. They are rated at 120w and 4 ohms.

My sources are the ones listed in my signature. A low end Sony turntable, a middle of the road Onkyo cassette deck and a Sony PS3 using the analog outputs.

My problem is CD playback. When I try to play any CD at a high volume, the sound gets unbearably "shrill" or "screechy" if you will.

I have tried using a cheap Cyberhome DVD player, a Philips DVD player, and the Sony PS3 as a CD player. Of those three the Sony sounded the best but still they all have the same issues with high frequencies making you want to wince at higher volumes.

I have tried doing some A/B and A/B/C tests with material I have purchased on CD, vinyl, and cassette. The vinyl and cassette versions all sound fine at high volume. No shrillness, no wincing, just good, loud music.

The CD versions sound ok at low to medium levels but do sound noticeably different, as in the highs seem really bright.

I also did an experiment last night where I tried playing a CD on the PS3 and recording it to cassette for playpack. When I did that, the cassette recorded from the PS3 also sounded horrible and shrill.

When I used the same Philips DVD player and the PS3 to play CDs with my old Kenwood receiver it never sounded like that at all. I did use the coax digital out on the Cyberhome and Philps players, and the optical out on the PS3 though...perhaps that could be the difference I am hearing. Seems odd that it would be that dramatic of a difference however.

What do you all think? Could it just be the DACs in all of those players are crappy? Maybe an issue with the CD input on my USP-1? (It is going to be swapped out for a different one due to a different issue anyway)

[warp]

Have you tried other cables? What brand are you using now? Have this kind of problems to and other RCA-cables in my system did a big improvement!

[Mr. Ben]

Since the other sources sound ok, and your tape of the CD player sounded shrill, it seems like you need to either get yourself a quality CD player, or an external DAC. You probably became accustomed to the DAC of your Kenwood. What model was it?

Edit - please tell me the Alexis speakers are temporary.

[Nodscene]

Uhm, what's wrong with Alesis monitors? Sure they may not be high end Genelecs, but they also don't come with the same price tag either. I've used these for mixing audio and to me they sound great and have a fairly flat response. I enjoy them a lot more then anything in the price range including KRK, Mackie, and even the low end Genelecs. I use the M1 Active MKII myself, but have heard the non-active ones and they are very nice.

[slbenz]

I agree with what Mr. Ben said, either get yourself a better CD player or an external DAC. Marantz is known for a warmer, analog-like sound. If you are looking for an external DAC, I would recommend a Channel Islands Audio. Sounds better than a Benchmark DAC that was in my system. Another alternative to tame the shrill is to use a Tube Buffer with your CD player. I use a Yaqin Tube Buffer with the single 6DJ8/6922 tube with my Marantz universal DVD player and really enjoy the analog-like sound it produces with my Magnepans with the true ribbon tweeters.

[Mr. Ben]

Mar 7, 2010 15:11:54 GMT -5 Nodscene said:

Uhm, what's wrong with Alesis monitors?

There's nothing wrong with Alesis monitors, but I do think that they are, by far, the weak point in this setup.

[sanjaygolf]

What's the volume setting on your PS3? I remember a while ago people were complaining of shrill sounds for movie playback and the reason was because the volume was all the way up on their PS3s. Having the volume no more than at +2 seemed to help out a lot.

[paintedklown]

Thanks for the replies guys.


I am thinking the offending sounds are probably the fault of the DACs in the players I have mentioned. My Kenwood receiver was from a HTIB setup. The VR-406.

sanjaygolf , the PS3 volume is set to "0" or default. I get the same results with all three of my players though. Sucks, LOL!!!

I am also wondering if the issue might be that I am pushing the Alesis past their linear range...it seems like that shouldn't be the cause though, since the other two sources can go considerably louder without issue.

I have heard that the ERC-1 is sort of a bright sounding CD player so I guess I need to look for a good warm sounding player.

What do you guys recommend?

slbenz, you mentioned that Marantz players are noted for being warm sounding. Would the CD5003 be a good choice?

And yes, I do plan on upgrading my speakers. The Alesis monitors are pretty good sounding, considering their cost, but are no match for nicer, more expensive speakers.

Right now I am thinking about buying a used pair of used B&W DM-603 Series 3, or maybe some Magnepan MMGs...OR maybe just holding off altogether and saving for my dream speakers, a pair of B&W CM-9s. There is a SERIOUS difference in pricing there though, so the used 603s are looking pretty good right now.

As a side note, I am pretty new to the whole "HI-FI" music world and I am slowly trying to build a reasonably good system on a budget. That is why you see the glaring weak spots in my gear...to be honest with you guys, I didn't even know what a pre/pro was about 3.5 months ago!!! I didn't understand how these "seperates" systems worked, or even how to go about piecing one together.

Well shortly after I learned what all of this stuff is, I discovered Emotiva. That discovery led me to this web site, and the rest is history. LOL! ;D

Thanks for reading.

-Dave

[hemster]

Hey Dave,

Re: separates... You seem to have gotten off to a great start with the USP-1 and UPA-1s. I used to have the DM-603s before I replaced them with Paradigms. The B&Ws are very good speakers. However, expensive does not always equate to quality as I'm sure you know. For instance, the Sur speakers we heard at Axpona are very good indeed and sounded better than some others costing many times more (see the Axpona thread emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=off&action=display&thread=9105 for more).

Post away if you have questions and I'm sure we'll all do our best to help out.

[briank]

You also might want to peek through the top of the UPA-1 cover and look at where the wires plug into the amp output module(at the heat sink). You want to look at the white connector and see if it appears plugged in straight. I was having trouble with one of my amps "loosing composure" when cranked up a bit. It did get a bit shrill sounding. So when I took the amp out of the rack to take it back to Emotiva, I noticed this "plug" was crooked. I went ahead and ran it by Emo HQ (I was going by there anyway) and they plugged it in correctly and this resolved the problem. It may not be the problem in your case(it could be your source), but I wanted to point it out as a possiblity. They'll really crank now and sound awesome and smooth, at least till my neighbor starts banging on my door.

[slbenz]

Paintedklown,

Certainly a Marantz CD5003 will be a better choice than any of the DVD players you listed. Also, I was thinking you could also try a Herbies Audio Lab The Black Hole which is a CD mat that attaches to the center of the CD. Dirt cheap ($3.00) and reusable. I have been using this product for a while and it also gives your CDs a more analog sound. Just another option to try and think about.

[Mr. Ben]

I'd actually suggest you try replacing the speakers first. Since this is something that you plan on doing anyway, I'd put your resources into that, and you may find that the shrillness goes away. If not, you can always add a new CD player or DAC later. You may end up with warm sounding speakers, and not want a warm sounding CD player in the future.

[House]

The Ps3 always sounds like crap in my mind when listening to music period.... I always revert back to using my Rotel player for any kind of critical listening....

...definatly look into better DAC's

[Mr. Ben]

If you still have your Kenwood, you could try using it as a DAC, and see if that makes your CD player sound correct. Simply attach the digital output from the source to a digital input of your receiver, attach the tape output from the receiver to your USP-1's CD input, and set the receiver's input selector to the appropriate digital input. Instant DAC. Make sure that your receiver isn't applying any tone controls, and see if it sounds correct to you.

[ntrain42]

To real real blunt and to the point here, your most likely overdriving those tweeters and the cheap xover parts internally...........those speakers are not a great pair by any means, I can garentee if your playing at "loud" volumes those tweeters and the hp xover are getting the crap kicked out of them with the amount of power you have on hand. Tweeters and cheap low grade hp caps tend to sound very harsh and bright when driven past their limits, even with a clean undistorted signal.

Upgrade the speakers to something that can handle the power better IMO. Your spending the money on good electronics, so why are you d!ckin around with a low grade budget speaker?

[paintedklown]

Mar 9, 2010 12:29:40 GMT -5 ntrain42 said:

To real real blunt and to the point here, your most likely overdriving those tweeters and the cheap xover parts internally...........those speakers are not a great pair by any means, I can garentee if your playing at "loud" volumes those tweeters and the hp xover are getting the crap kicked out of them with the amount of power you have on hand. Tweeters and cheap low grade hp caps tend to sound very harsh and bright when driven past their limits, even with a clean undistorted signal.

Upgrade the speakers to something that can handle the power better IMO. Your spending the money on good electronics, so why are you d!ckin around with a low grade budget speaker?

LOL, I have those as my speakers because I got them to monitor mixes, not really to use as "loudspeakers" so to speak. I just haven't bought new speakers as of yet. Trying to build this system one piece at a time.

I agree, though, that this may indeed be the culprit of the issues.

Just for an experiment I drug my receiver into the living room and hooked it up to test for the same shrill sounds. What I discovered was that my receiver begins to distort VERY heavily right at the point of harshness, so I would back it down a bit. In other words, it doesn't stay clean at high volume so I was just blaming the receiver for the breakup/harsh sounds. While it was partly to blame because it cannot deliver enough clean power, the speakers seem to be at fault as well.

On the other hand, my Emo amps will push clean power at high volumes so I am not hearing that breakup and distortion to lead me to lower the volume. I think I may just be driving the little Alesis speakers past their linear range.

The only thing that bugs me about that conclusion is the fact that I can play vinyl and tapes at high volumes with the Emo gear and there isn't any harshness at all. This only happens with CDs. Weird.

Either way, the Alesis are the weakest link and I do want to upgrade them as my next purchase for this system.

[slbenz]

I think part of the reason you are hearing in your vinyl, tape and CD differences is that your vinyl and tape are analog sources and the CD is digital. These analog sources have a warmer sound and the two that you are using I suspect also probably don't output as high as your CD sources so as not to overdrive your speakers and exacerbate the problem. Having own a Pro-Ject turntable with a Jolida tube preamp it does sound smoother and easier on the ears than my CD source which is a Marantz DV-9600.

[paintedklown]

Mar 9, 2010 11:56:36 GMT -5 Mr. Ben said:

If you still have your Kenwood, you could try using it as a DAC, and see if that makes your CD player sound correct. Simply attach the digital output from the source to a digital input of your receiver, attach the tape output from the receiver to your USP-1's CD input, and set the receiver's input selector to the appropriate digital input. Instant DAC. Make sure that your receiver isn't applying any tone controls, and see if it sounds correct to you.

Thanks for the tip. I wasn't even aware you could do that.

So, I tried it and...the results were the same. It HAS to be the speakers at fault. I am thinking that I have just never been able to feed them enough power to cause them to react the way they do at high volume with the Emo amps.


Thanks everyone for your ideas, thoughts, suggestions, tips, ect. They really are appreciated.