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Post by badronald on Nov 11, 2010 9:07:05 GMT -5
No, I doubt your ears are playing tricks on you. The XPA-5 can produce more power with only two channels playing than the published specs that Emotiva gives with all channels driven. Most any multi channel amp will act this way. That's how most receivers make their rated power. It's also not good for the amp to operate this way for extended periods of time at high volume levels. You are hearing the amp control your speakers tighter than with the UPA-1's. This will increase a lot with the XPA-1's. The extra power of the XPA-1's (250%!) isn't about an added 4 decibels of headroom. It's about better control. Much much better control. You will hear this control through the things you've already mentioned. Extended highs. Tighter bass. Fuller midrange. I think you'll love the XPA-1's. In the meantime, take it easy on the 2 channel through the XPA-5. You can do it, but don't do it for extended periods at high volume. Funny.... i just posted a similar post
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Nov 11, 2010 9:24:01 GMT -5
I'm not sure but what I know is maggie loves power and as with my existing speakers it's 4 ohm rating. You just answered your own question. * If you love eating, you'll consume more right? Shopping, same thing right? Your big car loves power too. So a bigger house.
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Post by DC on Nov 11, 2010 10:00:47 GMT -5
Hi Nemises. I think u hit it top of the nail, while i felt the enhanced high, mid & lower , i also feel that in certain part it sounds a little harsh, not as smooth as upa-1. But dwfinately the kick is noticeable, hope the xpa-1 is what i have expected & more. Cheers
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 11, 2010 10:02:16 GMT -5
The specs are similiar? Not really. The xpa-1 will chew up and eat that little upa-1. I had the xpa-1's and they are amazing. You will definately not regret it. I regret selling mine. Not really. 200 watts vs. 500 watts at 8 ohms is only 3-4db more of continuos headroom. In real world volume, thats not very much at all. Remember you need to double your power to gain a paultry 3db of volume. Typical amps in typical situations are only cranking a watt or 2 at most out of them continuously. If you want to "double" the percieved loudness you need 10db more of headroom. So to double the output of an amp like the UPA-1 that gives 200 watts continuous you would need an amp capable of cranking out over 2000 watts at 8ohms which is 10 times the power. So 500 watts over 200 watts looks like a big difference on paper, but in reality its miniscule, and only 3-4db more of output which ain't much at all. By that same reasoning, then what is the point of getting even a 200 watt amp? Why not 100 watts or 50 watts, because you don't gain that much more in the way of volume going from 50 to 100 watts (3 db) and then from 100 to 200 (another 3 db). Most of the time you are using far less wattage anyway. If 500 versus 200 watts is "miniscule" then wouldn't that be the same for 200 versus 100 or 75 watts? Why spend so much money on separates when you can get a decent AVR that puts out 75 watts per channel? I realize that what I just wrote does not present the entire picture and I don't agree with it myself. I'm pointing out that reasoning about amps based just on the relative watts is not all there is to it. There is a more difference between an XPA-1 and UPA-1 than just the power output.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Nov 12, 2010 4:40:24 GMT -5
Hi Nemesis. I think u hit it top of the nail, while i felt the enhanced high, mid & lower , i also feel that in certain part it sounds a little harsh, not as smooth as upa-1. But dwfinately the kick is noticeable, hope the xpa-1 is what i have expected & more. Cheers Do let us know what you think.
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Post by thepcguy on Nov 12, 2010 5:16:17 GMT -5
Placebo effect.
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Post by thepcguy on Nov 12, 2010 5:21:48 GMT -5
Not really. 200 watts vs. 500 watts at 8 ohms is only 3-4db more of continuos headroom. In real world volume, thats not very much at all. Remember you need to double your power to gain a paultry 3db of volume. Typical amps in typical situations are only cranking a watt or 2 at most out of them continuously. If you want to "double" the percieved loudness you need 10db more of headroom. So to double the output of an amp like the UPA-1 that gives 200 watts continuous you would need an amp capable of cranking out over 2000 watts at 8ohms which is 10 times the power. So 500 watts over 200 watts looks like a big difference on paper, but in reality its miniscule, and only 3-4db more of output which ain't much at all. By that same reasoning, then what is the point of getting even a 200 watt amp? Why not 100 watts or 50 watts, because you don't gain that much more in the way of volume going from 50 to 100 watts (3 db) and then from 100 to 200 (another 3 db). Most of the time you are using far less wattage anyway. If 500 versus 200 watts is "miniscule" then wouldn't that be the same for 200 versus 100 or 75 watts? Why spend so much money on separates when you can get a decent AVR that puts out 75 watts per channel? I realize that what I just wrote does not present the entire picture and I don't agree with it myself. I'm pointing out that reasoning about amps based just on the relative watts is not all there is to it. There is a more difference between an XPA-1 and UPA-1 than just the power output. Room size. You don't get a 28,000 BTU air conditioner to cool a 12 x 12 room. 10,000 BTU is more like it. And because it's from the same manufacturer, they will sound similar (most amps anyway). I wish Emotiva has a Blind testing room during Emofest to settle these and other AVR versus AVR versus UMC-1, etc questions. And I thought tube amps are 'better' sounding than solid state Amps. How much power tube amps have compared to solid state ones? No comparison, right?
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Post by Poodleluvr on Nov 12, 2010 9:03:16 GMT -5
www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0907/"Secrets of Amplifier And Speaker Power Requirements Revealed!" "Article by Alan Lofft as supplied by Axiom Audio" A few excerpts of article with link and credit provided above: "As audio/video hobbyists, most of us grew up thinking that if we have an amplifier with 50 watts of rated output power into 8-ohm speakers, and that combination produces reasonably clean and loud music, then by doubling the amplifier power to 100 watts per channel, the system would then play twice as loud. Many readers likely still believe that. Not so." "Therefore, a 100-watt amplifier will produce sound only slightly louder than a 50-watt amplifier." "From all this you can see the huge power requirements inherent in reproducing real-life acoustic sound levels in average or big rooms." "But the truth is that if we are seeking real-life acoustic sound levels in our listening rooms, there's a very persuasive argument for very large, powerful amplifiers. And if your speakers are less sensitive (and many are), then the power demands rise even more dramatically. Sizeable rooms and greater listening distances will also increase power demands tremendously." "And what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that 'loud.' The key here is that in most or our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom (but more on that next month). It's the distortion that makes it sound 'loud' in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume, because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds 'too loud.'" "The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels."
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Post by monkumonku on Nov 12, 2010 10:24:59 GMT -5
www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/manufacture/0907/"Secrets of Amplifier And Speaker Power Requirements Revealed!" "Article by Alan Lofft as supplied by Axiom Audio" A few excerpts of article with link and credit provided above: "As audio/video hobbyists, most of us grew up thinking that if we have an amplifier with 50 watts of rated output power into 8-ohm speakers, and that combination produces reasonably clean and loud music, then by doubling the amplifier power to 100 watts per channel, the system would then play twice as loud. Many readers likely still believe that. Not so." "Therefore, a 100-watt amplifier will produce sound only slightly louder than a 50-watt amplifier." "From all this you can see the huge power requirements inherent in reproducing real-life acoustic sound levels in average or big rooms." "But the truth is that if we are seeking real-life acoustic sound levels in our listening rooms, there's a very persuasive argument for very large, powerful amplifiers. And if your speakers are less sensitive (and many are), then the power demands rise even more dramatically. Sizeable rooms and greater listening distances will also increase power demands tremendously." "And what many of us don't realize until we hear it, is that clean undistorted loud sound often does not sound that 'loud.' The key here is that in most or our home listening, there are small amounts of distortion caused by a lack of dynamic headroom (but more on that next month). It's the distortion that makes it sound 'loud' in a domestic setting. To remove those distortions and increase dynamic headroom relates to even more power. We've become accustomed to accepting some distortion with our reproduced music, because all amplifier's distortion ratings gradually increase as they approach their output limits or slightly clip the audio signals. When that happens, we turn down the volume, because distortion starts to intrude on our listening pleasure, and it sounds 'too loud.'" "The lesson in all this is that you can never have too much power, and that big amplifiers rarely damage speakers. Little amplifiers driven into clipping burn out speakers. In the scheme of high fidelity, that last barrier to realism is having enough power and being able to approximate real-life loudness levels." I tend to agree with this - the cue I get that something is too loud is that it sounds distorted. If there is no distortion then that cue is not there, and we keep turning up the volume because the sound seems pure and pleasing - there is no unpleasantness to make us turn it down. Of course no matter what the sound is, there is a point where our ears can't handle it but I'd say that point is much lower when we begin to hear distortion. That's why it seems some recordings you can just keep turning up the knob but others definitely have their limits!
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Post by badronald on Nov 12, 2010 11:31:32 GMT -5
3db (or doubling of power) is not a "slight" increase in volume, it's quite a bit louder
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Post by thepcguy on Nov 12, 2010 13:55:09 GMT -5
^ Try clipping a 50 watt Amp in a 10 x 10 room. If it's not too loud for you just before it hits clipping/distortion, see your ear Doctor.
bit ;D
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Post by Poodleluvr on Nov 12, 2010 14:31:47 GMT -5
www.bittner-audio.com/default.php?page=pow2vol&l=enCourtesy Bittner Audio: "Sound Pressure and Amplifier Power" "While selecting an appropriate power amplifier, please note: Doubling the output power of an amplifier increases the loudness (SPL) by 3 dB. Unfortunately, this does not mean, that the impression of loudness is doubled as well. The human ear shows a varying sensitivity over frequency. Therefore, on average, we require 10 dB increase of SPL (loudness) to feel a subjective doubling of the loudness. This, however, will then require 10 times the output power of an amplifier - i.e. a 1000 W amplifier will seem (!) to be only twice as loud as a 100 Watt amp."
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Post by DC on Nov 18, 2010 20:56:48 GMT -5
Hi all, just to update. got the XPA-1, unpacked & man the beast is heavy so have to find some piece of wood to prop up my glass display unit. Then encountered another crisis which I've read in the forum but didn't take heed which is the distance of the speaker's output! Gosh it is 13 " apart and even though I'm using Emotiva's Ultra speaker cable I can't comprehend why they didn't cater to the XPA-1 13" distance. Can anyone out there explain why they make the poles 13" apart & why their own speaker's cable didn't cater to solve this? ? Anyway hook up everything finally and first impression was it certainly sounds different straight out of the box but couldn't pinpoint what. So put on 'Eric Clapton Unplugged" which I'm very familiar with & there it goes, bass is definitely tighter, sound stage seems bigger, voices takes on a more natural timbre than the UPA-1 & XPA-5. In fact I can swear there are certain notes & sound which I have not heard previously. Also I noticed the XPA-1 are quite cool compared with the XPA-5 after 2-3 hours. Well I'm in no way any an expert in this field & this is only my personal opinion after having all 3 amps with the same equipments & same environment.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Nov 18, 2010 21:25:53 GMT -5
Hi all, just to update. got the XPA-1, unpacked & man the beast is heavy so have to find some piece of wood to prop up my glass display unit. Then encountered another crisis which I've read in the forum but didn't take heed which is the distance of the speaker's output! Gosh it is 13 " apart and even though I'm using Emotiva's Ultra speaker cable I can't comprehend why they didn't cater to the XPA-1 13" distance. Can anyone out there explain why they make the poles 13" apart & why their own speaker's cable didn't cater to solve this? ? Anyway hook up everything finally and first impression was it certainly sounds different straight out of the box but couldn't pinpoint what. So put on 'Eric Clapton Unplugged" which I'm very familiar with & there it goes, bass is definitely tighter, sound stage seems bigger, voices takes on a more natural timbre than the UPA-1 & XPA-5. In fact I can swear there are certain notes & sound which I have not heard previously. Also I noticed the XPA-1 are quite cool compared with the XPA-5 after 2-3 hours. Well I'm in no way any an expert in this field & this is only my personal opinion after having all 3 amps with the same equipments & same environment. Balanced differential(push/pull) amplifier. Left side ='s positive output bank, right side ='s negative output bank. Alot of balanced amps are like this.
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Nov 18, 2010 21:31:28 GMT -5
3db (or doubling of power) is not a "slight" increase in volume, it's quite a bit louder 3db increase is not a big gain at all in volume output. 1 db is just barely audible to our ears(but still very hard to distinguish in many ways). In blind testing it would be very hard for many typical users with untrained ears to distinguish audio deviations in some audio recordings that are 3db or less.
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Post by badronald on Nov 18, 2010 21:45:31 GMT -5
3db (or doubling of power) is not a "slight" increase in volume, it's quite a bit louder 3db increase is not a big gain at all in volume output. 1 db is just barely audible to our ears(but still very hard to distinguish in many ways). In blind testing it would be very hard for many typical users with untrained ears to distinguish audio deviations in some audio recordings that are 3db or less. Your statement is partially true. db measurement is not linear, it is a parabolic curve, so at very low volumes, 1 db increase is not much, but say you are at 109 db, and go to 110 db, you will notice a difference
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Nov 18, 2010 21:59:44 GMT -5
One thing is fo sur: when at my listening position I measure 116 dB from my Rat Shack SPL meter, and then I measure 119 dB; I can definitively feel that increase, in my guts! * And if your sub(s) can play 12 Hz, add 16.5 dBs to these figures! ...Because of the inaccuracy of the Shack meter at at that audio frequency. - If not, and your sub(s) can only do 20 Hz, then add just 7.5 dB. [119 dB + 7.5 dB = 126.5 dB, at 20 Hz.] - At 25 Hz, add 5 dB. [119 dB + 5 dB = 124 dB, at 25 Hz.] *** In your home, at your listening position, with a great sub or two, you can achieve 135 dB+!!!
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Post by Porscheguy on Nov 18, 2010 22:01:06 GMT -5
Only you Ntrain will defend the indefensible. But you own UPA-1's, so of course they are better..... Someone could come into this forum and say they sold their UPA-1's for some $10,000.00 pure class A monoblocks and you would still argue that your $300 UPA-1's are clearly better because after all, YOU own them :-)
What rubbish.... Shall we also assume that you have owned XPA-1's as well so you can speak honestly? You said the other night you owned an XPA-2 amp as well.
Couldn't you have just come into this thread and said to the OP, "great, the XPA-1's are fantastic, they are Emo's statement product of achievement and are considered some of the best amps in the world regardless of price". Nope, not you. Argue and stir the pot.....
You will not be defeated. You are Ntrain :-)
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Nov 18, 2010 22:02:05 GMT -5
Bob!!! CAN YOU HEAR ME!!!!!
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ntrain42
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Post by ntrain42 on Nov 18, 2010 22:06:12 GMT -5
Only you Ntrain will defend the indefensible. But you own UPA-1's, so of course they are better..... Someone could come into this forum and say they sold their UPA-1's for some 1 $10,000.00 pure class A monoblocks and you would still aregue that your $300 XPA-1's are clearly better because afterall, YOU own them :-) What rubbish.... You will not be defeated. You are Ntrain :-) WTF are you even talking about? I'm not even discussing any specific amp right now. Time to get your head out of your ss, seriously. And um, you rarely hear me compare my daily use Emo amps to my other amplification products. Emotiva puts out some really good products for the money paid, but reference build and SQ they are not.
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