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Post by briank on Apr 3, 2011 10:16:19 GMT -5
Ok, I've been listening to the Pangea Power Cords for a while now and I've reached some conclusions. #1) Power cords can without a doubt effect the sound. #2) this change is not always positive (the Pangea AC14SE's will be going back) #3) The change is less obvious then IC and speaker cable changes for the Most part, although some of those can be hard to distinguish (i.e. Zu Varials compared to Dh Labs Revelations) while others are quite obvious. The Pangea's did bring a noticeable increase in dynamics(transient response) and increased detail by a slight margin, however, they also changed the overall tone for the worse. My system sounded thinner and brighter and I was getting some listener fatigue. With that said, I'm glad I tried them, as now I know that power cords can effect the sound, and will try several more out to see if I can improve my system further. Also, I would save this tweak for last, after your happy with everything else as it's going to have less of an impact than changing components or your other cables. Kind of feel relieved now that I have my answer as to power cables making a difference as I've been curious about them but haven't had the time or money to experiment. I think I'll try the new Shunyata Venom 3's next. Also, I want to add to the water analogy mentioned previously regarding "How can water quality be changed by changing out the last few feet of pipe?", if you think of your power cable as a filter (which many have mentioned that's basically what cables are), then adding a "water filter" to the end of that same water line does indeed effect the "taste" and/or quality of the water. As always YMMV, but I encourage people to experiment and draw their own conclusions.
Happy Listening
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Post by flamingeye on Apr 3, 2011 17:35:14 GMT -5
Sorry but copper cables are NOT filters
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Post by USNRet on Apr 3, 2011 19:58:12 GMT -5
Yes, kinda...when I had the XPA-1s I needed longer power cables. I built them with quality (read sturdy) connectors and 12 ga. shielded aircraft grade wire. I did this for two reasons; the wire was free and I figured that the shielding would not hurt when the interconnects and speaker wires came in close proximity.
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Post by flamingeye on Apr 3, 2011 20:12:57 GMT -5
Sorry again but that`s still not filtering that`s shielding as in blocking
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Post by briank on Apr 3, 2011 20:43:07 GMT -5
All I know is that different power cables can sound different. I've heard other people such as equipment reviewers say that cables act like filters. The cable rep from Shunyata also says when it comes to audio components and power cables that the components are basically "near sighted" and the last few feet of cable are important to the sound. I just find these comments interesting as I'm still kinda shocked that I could actualy hear a noticeable difference in power cables as I was previously extremely skeptical. I guess the old adage "don't knock it till you try it" comes into play here. :-)
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Post by stuofsci02 on Apr 3, 2011 22:44:13 GMT -5
Sorry but copper cables are NOT filters They are, but at frequencies far far far above audible levels..... It matters not, since the first thing in an amplifier is the powersupply which is a nice big filter...
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Post by flamingeye on Apr 4, 2011 7:17:19 GMT -5
Yes a power supply can and a lot do have filters on them but there separate component from the transformer , I`m not trying to dispute wether you hear or don`t hear a difference that`s a different matter but a power cable is just a transmission line it takes electricity from point A to point B and if it does anything else then some one put something other then metal in it like transistors , now cables can put resistance if not of sufficient gauge on the flow of electricity but it surly does not filter it
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Post by aboroth00 on Apr 4, 2011 14:20:59 GMT -5
But but DIY power cables look cool
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Post by moodyman on Apr 4, 2011 19:14:52 GMT -5
All I know is that different power cables can sound different. I've heard other people such as equipment reviewers say that cables act like filters. The cable rep from Shunyata also says when it comes to audio components and power cables that the components are basically "near sighted" and the last few feet of cable are important to the sound. I just find these comments interesting as I'm still kinda shocked that I could actualy hear a noticeable difference in power cables as I was previously extremely skeptical. I guess the old adage "don't knock it till you try it" comes into play here. :-) Nope. But lets assume you REALLY did hear differences. I'd bet my paycheck this was due to comb filtering in your room. Basically what this means is that the freq response of your room can vary greatly from 2 points in your room..even if the 2 points are only an inch apart. So what happens is you change a power cord and then go back to your listening position...but your not exactly at the same listening position..so things sound a little diffferent. Wham! Your now part of the "power cords make difference" cult. Comb filtering is very real and has been documented and measured extensively. Rest assured that a LOT of people who thought they heard differences in their new DAC, amp, CD player, etc...were merely being subjected to comb filtering. To be fair...the better your room is treated the less comb filtering that is present.
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Post by briank on Apr 4, 2011 22:34:01 GMT -5
Comb filtering? Because I changed power cords??? Not to be rude but . . . seriously Comb filtering is caused by driver interaction which results in some spiking in the frequency response resembling a comb when measured. Not a lot of comb filtering going on with two way monitors and changing power cords would not effect or cause comb filtering. I respect your opinion but would have to disagree.
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Post by bobbyt on Apr 4, 2011 22:52:20 GMT -5
You'll dismiss comb filtering, a real effect that's measurable with scientific principles to back it, in favor of "nearsighted" cable voodoo?
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Post by briank on Apr 4, 2011 23:01:32 GMT -5
Been comparing the stock 18 gauge cord on the USP-1 with the 12 gauge X-series cord tonight. The only difference that I can tell with certainty is the X-series has a stronger base response. Maybe a little too strong though as it's over powering the midrange a little. The perfect balance would seem to be somewhere between the two. Obviously from my equipment list, I'm a big Dh Lab cable fan, so I may try their Power Plus cord next if I can find a good deal on one.
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Post by briank on Apr 4, 2011 23:04:22 GMT -5
I don't doubt that comb filtering happens, I just don't believe power cords have an effect on it as it's due to driver interaction.
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iceman66
Emo VIPs
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" The Great One
Posts: 1,083
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Post by iceman66 on Apr 4, 2011 23:07:44 GMT -5
Been comparing the stock 18 gauge cord on the USP-1 with the 12 gauge X-series cord tonight. The only difference that I can tell with certainty is the X-series has a stronger base response. Maybe a little too strong though as it's over powering the midrange a little. The perfect balance would seem to be somewhere between the two. Obviously from my equipment list, I'm a big Dh Lab cable fan, so I may try their Power Plus cord next if I can find a good deal on one. Brian, Just curious if you are swapping the cables yourself or doing a blind test (with assistance of course)?
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Post by briank on Apr 4, 2011 23:14:35 GMT -5
I think comb filtering comes into play more when speakers using multiple drivers have poorly designed crossovers resulting in interaction issues at certain frequencies.
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Post by briank on Apr 4, 2011 23:25:38 GMT -5
Hey iceman, I've done blind testing several times in the past with IC's and speaker cables but my recent power cord testing is with just me making the switch. I'm actually getting better at hearing differences in cables with a lot of practice the past couple of years. The differences are actually much more noticeable than I expected so not feeling the need to blind test at the moment. Maybe will do that when I narrow down my choices. Still find it weird that power cords are sounding different and I honestly wouldn't believe it if I didn't hear it for myself. When u and Sushi boy (monku) come to Emofest next year, y'all can swing by here and we'll do some blind testing and a few beers of course. :-)
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Post by briank on Apr 4, 2011 23:34:03 GMT -5
Just want to point out I'm simply sharing my experiences and opinions, but encourage others to experiment and reach their own conclusions. Time for bed, tomorrow my new speakers arrive! :-)
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iceman66
Emo VIPs
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take" The Great One
Posts: 1,083
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Post by iceman66 on Apr 5, 2011 0:08:49 GMT -5
Hey iceman, I've done blind testing several times in the past with IC's and speaker cables but my recent power cord testing is with just me making the switch. I'm actually getting better at hearing differences in cables with a lot of practice the past couple of years. The differences are actually much more noticeable than I expected so not feeling the need to blind test at the moment. Maybe will do that when I narrow down my choices. Still find it weird that power cords are sounding different and I honestly wouldn't believe it if I didn't hear it for myself. When u and Sushi boy (monku) come to Emofest next year, y'all can swing by here and we'll do some blind testing and a few beers of course. :-) I have never heard any difference between ICs, speaker cables, power cables etc, I have wanted to hear differences but maybe my ears are to old or I don't know how to critically listen. When you test a cable is it always with a certain piece of music? Do you focus on a certain instrument? Is there a generally accepted way to 'listen' when evaluating cables etc? Emofest? Would love to make it down there and share a beer or two - I can actually taste differences when it comes to beer But I don't think the finances will allow it - this year anyway
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Post by briank on Apr 5, 2011 6:26:56 GMT -5
Iceman, anytime you or Monku can make it to TN, look me up and we'll have a beer and cable testing session and I'm willing to bet a couple of beers that you'll hear the difference. :-)
In the beginning of trying to listen for differences with cables I struggled with it because I made the same mistake as a lot of people and expected to notice a difference the first few minutes of switching cables when in fact you often have to listen to the cable awhile with various music and media such as TV and then you start to notice differences. I do like some cd's better than others for this, such as Jerrod Niemann's "Judge Jerrod & the Hung Jury Album" , Jazmine Sullivan's "fearless" and others. But if you spend the time and swap the cables back and forth several times, whether after one song of after an album, you begin to notice the different characteristics of each cable. Once you identify these characteristics it becomes relatively easy to switch cables and tell which is which. For example, if you were listening to the x-series and bj LC-1's you might not notice the difference but if I pointed it out and then you listened you would be like "wow" I can hear the difference now. Also, like with most things, you get better with practice.
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 5, 2011 9:11:20 GMT -5
Iceman, anytime you or Monku can make it to TN, look me up and we'll have a beer and cable testing session and I'm willing to bet a couple of beers that you'll hear the difference. :-) In the beginning of trying to listen for differences with cables I struggled with it because I made the same mistake as a lot of people and expected to notice a difference the first few minutes of switching cables when in fact you often have to listen to the cable awhile with various music and media such as TV and then you start to notice differences. I do like some cd's better than others for this, such as Jerrod Niemann's "Judge Jerrod & the Hung Jury Album" , Jazmine Sullivan's "fearless" and others. But if you spend the time and swap the cables back and forth several times, whether after one song of after an album, you begin to notice the different characteristics of each cable. Once you identify these characteristics it becomes relatively easy to switch cables and tell which is which. For example, if you were listening to the x-series and bj LC-1's you might not notice the difference but if I pointed it out and then you listened you would be like "wow" I can hear the difference now. Also, like with most things, you get better with practice. Well TN is on the opposite site of the country (literally and figuratively since y'all have more common sense out there than us flaky Californians) but if I am ever out that way like for Emofest, I will take you up on your hospitality - thanks for the invite! And if I am able to hear a difference, truly that will be a miracle strong testimony that cables do make a difference.
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