selkec
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Post by selkec on Aug 1, 2011 13:01:12 GMT -5
Out of the Belkin pf30
Apc H15 and Furman ELITE-15 DM i. What would you choose and why. Assuming the power conditioning it of high importants with my levels going from around 110 to 130v. And daily probably 30 times a day.
If you voted list why you voted for that model.
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Post by roadrunner on Aug 1, 2011 13:42:59 GMT -5
The power grid in my area of the state fluctuates the voltage over a wide range. In the same day, I have measured it as low as 107 volts and as high as 132 volts. Incandescent light bulbs have a very short life span unless I buy bulbs intended for 130 volts.
I don't worry about that with my Emotiva amps because of their protective circuits and their power supply design those voltage swings are not an issue. However, I don't feel that typical source components have power supplies capable of handling the power fluctuations in my area without incident.
During the peak summer power demands on the electrical grid we often experience periods where the house lighting grows bright for several seconds while the electric company balances the grid. When using the APC H15, the voltage fed to the gear plugged into have a predictable smooth voltage -- ensuring minimal strain caused by power fluctuations.
I found my APC H15 on sale last year for only $99 for a brand new unit; and to get all the protection and filtering that comes with the APC H15 for that price was a "no brainer".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2011 17:36:24 GMT -5
Sad to say I have two outlets, three amps, and a UMC-1 and a BD player and wall warts for powering miniDSPs, and a TV. If I had a great deal of money I would rewire my place but I don't.
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Aug 1, 2011 17:54:08 GMT -5
+1 roadrunner. I got my APC H15 for the same reasons and find that despite the yo-yo mode input voltage here in Florida, the output is almost a constant. I have no regrets whatsoever. Well... maybe 1, I perhaps should have got the H15 in black....  |
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selkec
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Post by selkec on Aug 1, 2011 18:33:26 GMT -5
hempster. You can get flat or satin black spray can paint and take the h15 apart and psint it in under 20 minutes. I have done 4. Three h15's which I sold, and the h10 I have now.
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Post by matt on Aug 1, 2011 19:25:40 GMT -5
Zero Surge 8R15T-I (TSC) Why? : www.zerosurge.com/waveforms.cfm?PType=ResFor a rackmount system, I have a SurgeX SX1115RT on order. The only reason why I am considering it above the Zero Surge 10R-1U-15T-I is due to the COUVS. It is just an extra fail-safe. I have removed all MOV based surge protectors. |
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Post by westom on Aug 1, 2011 20:21:47 GMT -5
I have removed all MOV based surge protectors. Why? In facilities that cannot suffer damage, MOVs are some of the best protection solutions. Of course, those protectors are not the grossly undersized circuits found in some above power conditioners. Effective MOVs are located where even direct lightning strikes are made irrelevant. Where direct lighting strikes do not even harm the MOVs. Effective MOV protection means tens of thousands of amps do not threaten any appliance. Do not even harm the protector. Where does a Zerosurge claim any such protection? It doesn't. Power conditioning is a catch-all phrase for all electrical anomalies. Nothing addresses all. Effective power conditioning means one first defines each anomaly. Then defines protection from that anomaly. How many power conditioners protect from frequency variations? None? How many protected from bad power factor? How many protect from a floating ground? Which anomalies does it protect from? Power conditioner is a subjective catch-all phrase to sell miracle solutions to naive consumers. Meanwhile, ideal voltages for all 120 volt electronics are lower than 110 and higher than 130 volts. If any electronics does not operate outside those ranges, then the appliance is defective. Meanwhile, those voltage variations are more harmful to motorized appliances. That type power conditioner is needed for a refrigerator, dishwasher, and furnace. |
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Post by matt on Aug 1, 2011 22:19:24 GMT -5
It seems that the MOV based surge protectors that I am referring to are exactly the type that your reply is not about: those protectors are not the grossly undersized circuits found in some above power conditioners. MOVs accumulate damage every time that they are used. That is why they are called a sacrificial component. It is possible to oversize them for their application so that they do not degrade quickly. I do not understand what claim you are referring to. The link that I gave goes to a page where the Zero Surge TSC® PQ Filter was tested against a 6,000 Volt/3,000 Amp Surge. That test is above what is expected to enter a building with proper grounding at the service entrance and is used to test the effectiveness of many surge protectors on the market. The measured response was that a connected appliance would have received a distorted wave form, but the voltage did not exceed the peak of a normal wave form (about 171 volts). It did not perfectly hide the event, but it effectively makes it a non-issue for most appliances. This test was repeated 1,000 times, and there was no observable degradation in performance. |
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Post by ausman on Aug 2, 2011 2:27:32 GMT -5
snake oil most of it..
not sure on amps though...
I'd look at a commercial ups, with a min of 6-10 batteries if you suffer brownouts a lot...
surge protection is a dime a dozen business, some work as intended others fail at a drop of a hat, it depends on what volt/amp refers too..
if your power supply is bad in summer, if you're worried constant spike and so forth you might want to consider taking yourself off the power grid completely and go solar power by 3-15 kw inverter system..
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Post by RichGuy on Aug 2, 2011 2:56:00 GMT -5
A UPS is good for computers and things which may require a shut down cool down time, like some projectors. But UPS or any battery supplied power systems are not good for music systems and usually produce poor sound quality.
A good power conditioner is much better for quality sound.
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Post by whiskeybravo on Aug 2, 2011 8:10:07 GMT -5
My APC H15 should be here tomorrow. It will be nice to have something better than the $200 paper weight Monster that I have.
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Post by westom on Aug 2, 2011 9:31:20 GMT -5
MOVs accumulate damage every time that they are used. That is why they are called a sacrificial component. It is possible to oversize them for their application so that they do not degrade quickly. Any protector that is sacrificial is best called a scam. Any protector that sacrifices does zero protection. Take a $4 power strip. Add ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $50 or $150. Or call it a power conditioner, put it inside a fancier box, and sell it for $hundreds. When a grossly undersized protector fails, a majority will assume, "It sacrificed itself to save my computer." I should be an obvious scam. But knowledge only from a feeling somehow becomes fact. So many are so easily manipulated by subjective claims sales brochures where lying is acceptable and legal. A surge was too tiny to overwhelm superior protection inside appliances. That too tiny surge destroys an expensive power strip protector or UPS. Grossly undersizing a protector increases profits. And gets most to recommend the protector that did zero protection. That protector had to disconnect its grossly undersized protector parts as fast as possible. Otherwise a house fire may result. Sometimes, protectors adjacent to appliances do not disconnect fast enough; cause house fires. Two types of MOV protectors exist. 1) Grossly undersized and adjacent to appliances to reap obscene profit margins. 2) Properly sized and adjacent to earth ground so that all appliances are protected for about $1 per. The least expensive solution remain functional even after making a direct lightning strike harmless. How does that Zerosurge absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Why did you ignore that question? What happens when a Zerosurge absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules? You recommended it. Therefore you know that answer. Why do you ignore each damninig question? Science for over 100 years has proven that superior protectors are located distant from appliances. Protectors adjacent to appliances can even make surge damage easier. Where are spec numbers from Zerosurge that claim protection from any typically destructive surge? Where are those numbers for the APC or Furman? None exist. Everyone has two choices? Admit to reality. Or post those spec numbers that claim protection. Informed consumers earth a 'whole house' protector. Then sacrificing does not happen. The superior solution costs tens or 100 times less money. Not an exaggeration. 100 years of well proven science that most will ignore because advertising is 'honest'? Propaganda easily manipulates anyone who ignores spec numbers. Easily manipulates anyone who cannot think logically; ask damning questions. Who do not always demand numbers. Even the original poster is promoting a scam. Voltages from 110 to 130 are perfectly *ideal* and normal for all electronics. Only lies in advertising created that mythical concern. The OP and so many others here have advocated classic scams. |
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Post by cougar75 on Aug 2, 2011 10:26:50 GMT -5
Well... maybe 1, I perhaps should have got the H15 in black.... Nothing a Stage 3 lightning strike wouldn't fix!! ;D |
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selkec
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Post by selkec on Aug 2, 2011 16:18:27 GMT -5
A UPS is good for computers and things which may require a shut down cool down time, like some projectors. But UPS or any battery supplied power systems are not good for music systems and usually produce poor sound quality. A good power conditioner is much better for quality sound. A UPS like the APCs15 is just an apc h15 with battery backup built in. Its not like ups for computers. Im so mad that I passed on an apc s15 for 300 shipped to my door in mint. So some of your takes on power conditioning is that as long as its between 110 and 130 then the electronics are ok? But do they sound as fgood at 110 as they would at 120v? |
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Post by westom on Aug 2, 2011 17:17:12 GMT -5
So some of your takes on power conditioning is that as long as its between 110 and 130 then the electronics are ok? But do they sound as fgood at 110 as they would at 120v? An answer is found in how power supplies work. AC mains are filtered. Then convert to high voltage DC (exceeding 300 volts). Then filtered again. Then converted to radio waves. After many more conversions and filters, a rock solid low voltage DC is output. AC mains voltage can drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50% intensity. And still, that low voltage DC is rock solid and unchanged. That and so many other functions are required and routine in electronics. Even existed long before the IBM PC existed. But is mostly unknown by many manipulated by advertising and strawmen. All of your electronics must not even know voltage has varied from 110 to 130 volts. Because one of so many power supply functions (you would be amazed how many) is to make even greater voltage variations completely irrelevant. |
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Aug 2, 2011 17:45:43 GMT -5
Well... maybe 1, I perhaps should have got the H15 in black.... Nothing a Stage 3 lightning strike wouldn't fix!! ;D Haha... I think I'll invest $3 in a can of spray paint though. ;D |
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Post by flamingeye on Aug 2, 2011 18:22:49 GMT -5
All I know is is that when I put a APC H 10 in my A/V system the low level hiss that was always present in my speakers was suddenly gone even when I press my ear against the speaker it`s dead quit now
note; only the amps are plugged directly to the wall outlet everything else is through the APC
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Post by matt on Aug 2, 2011 21:06:18 GMT -5
How does that Zerosurge absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? Why did you ignore that question? What happens when a Zerosurge absorbs hundreds of thousands of joules? You recommended it. Therefore you know that answer. Why do you ignore each damninig question? I figured that the 1,000 6,000 volt/3,000 amp pulse test and measurements was enough to address your concern about the product being able to protect an appliance and not take damage. This test shows that it is effective for what it is designed for, protecting the appliance connected to a branch circuit due to a surge. A joule is a watt second. It is not applicable to a power filter because the power filter is not rated for time other than a single surge event. (The 6,000 volt/3,000 amp pulse test delivers 90 joules, which is trivial in comparison to a cheap MOV surge protector.) After the surge event, the power filter circuit is no different than what it was before the surge. A joule rating exists for MOVs because their protection is used up by each surge event. A surge, by definition, is a short period of time. So the higher the joule rating, the longer the surge protector will be effective for future surges. The reason why there no joule rating is because it provides 90 joules of protection for every surge event, unlike a MOV which can only provide a certain number of joules (based on the severity of the surge) of protection until those joules have been consumed over numerous surge events. If you use MOV's, you should have a replacement schedule based on the estimated number of surges for your area, their severity, and the joule rating. You only need "hundreds of thousands of joules" if you are protecting a building or are using a MOV based appliance surge protector that lasts for a very long time. No 120v appliance needs more than 90 joules of protection for a single surge event. If a circuit receives more than 90 joules from a single surge, then something is deadly wrong with the the building's protection, such as the grounding. In that case, fire, personal injury, or death outweighs the worry of a broken appliance. Of course, if you want to protect the building, we are now talking about a different product, something that this thread was not intended to be about, although relevant. In which case, you will most likely be dealing with a product that is rated with a very high joule rating. Such products work for large external surges, but surges are also generated within the building by other appliances. Protecting the building is helpful, but it is not a comprehensive surge protection solution by itself. The following page offers slightly more detail, but in short, the filter slows and stores the surge, then discharges it later. www.zerosurge.com/howpqfilterworks.cfm Where are spec numbers from Zerosurge that claim protection from any typically destructive surge? If there are surge scenarios that apply to the product that I recommended and I have not addressed them yet, feel free to list a few specific surge scenarios. I think that the 6,000 volt/3,000 amp pulse test repeated 1,000 times is sufficient because it represents the worst case scenario for what that product will receive. |
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Post by roadrunner on Aug 2, 2011 23:55:28 GMT -5
All I know is is that when I put a APC H 10 in my A/V system the low level hiss that was always present in my speakers was suddenly gone even when I press my ear against the speaker it`s dead quit now note; only the amps are plugged directly to the wall outlet everything else is through the APC Surge protection is not the primary reason most of us purchase "power conditioners", as is evident by flamingeye's post. It is the filtering to prevent the distortion caused by EMI, RFI, DC voltage, etc. The mention of the voltage instability was never intended to say that the product would stop working... it was to point out that the artifacts accompanying this instability causes noise and other forms of distortion that produce significant negative impact on the sound quality. The "hiss" in flamingeye's speakers is a prime example. |
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selkec
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Post by selkec on Aug 3, 2011 6:35:08 GMT -5
So is there a consensus that the apc with voltage regulation has anything over the belkin?
Does the voltage fluctution even matter? If so speak in laymans terms please. These long posts can get a little complicated for such a easy answer.
So far the apc is winning doubling the votes of the belkin. I like the looks of both but I just need to know which is really better in my situation with my voltage fluctuations. If someone can help me decide Ill probably sell my H10 to get somem funds for the better of what we are discussing.
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