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Post by ribbonking on Aug 3, 2011 8:29:36 GMT -5
APC offers outstanding customer service as well. They truly stand behind their products.
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Post by westom on Aug 3, 2011 13:45:47 GMT -5
Surge protection is not the primary reason most of us purchase "power conditioners", as is evident by flamingeye's post. It is the filtering to prevent the distortion caused by EMI, RFI, DC voltage, etc. Learn what happens inside electronics. Any cleaning of distortion, EMI, RFI, etc is completely undone inside electronics. Voltages are converted to well over 330 volts. Then converted to high voltage radio waves. Conversion that makes electricity even 'dirtier'. 'Dirtier' that anything found on AC mains. Then electricity is converted to the cleanest and most stable DC voltage. Anything that power conditioner might do is completely undone inside electronics before superior circuits make that electricity the ‘cleanest’. Cleaning AC power is recommended where consumers have no idea what happens inside electronics. That 'cleaning' is completely undone. Filtered each time before another conversion. Rumored AC power anomalies cannot exist in a power supply’s output. Except in myths. How does the power conditioner fix frequency variations? It doesn't. But the Furman and Belkin make that subjective claim - so it must be true? Circuits inside all electronics make frequency variation irrelevant. Or did Furman and APC forget to mention that. What happens if an appliance sees a 90 joule surge? Due to existing circuits, that 90 joules is called noise. Many electronics will convert that noise into stable DC voltages. Use that 90 joules ‘surge’ for internal power, selkec - the long post said voltage fluctuations are irrelevant. And said why. A majority who recommend without number and reasons why are best ignored. Any recommendation without numbers is best called a lie. Or did we not learn from Saddam’s WMDs? We are all supposed to learn from historical mistakes. As taught by history, read spec numbers even provided by each of your electronics. Why do you make help even harder by not providing those numbers? The manufacturer listed every 100% perfect voltage. What are those numbers? If you love to be scammed, then only listen to recommendations without numbers. Any recommendation without numbers and reasons why is best called fiction. Why are the majority of books in a library fiction? Do you listen to a majority? Or listen to facts provided with numbers?
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Post by monkumonku on Aug 3, 2011 13:52:41 GMT -5
Surge protection is not the primary reason most of us purchase "power conditioners", as is evident by flamingeye's post. It is the filtering to prevent the distortion caused by EMI, RFI, DC voltage, etc. Learn what happens inside electronics. Any cleaning of distortion, EMI, RFI, etc is completely undone inside electronics. Voltages are converted to well over 330 volts. Then converted to high voltage radio waves. Conversion that makes electricity even 'dirtier'. 'Dirtier' that anything found on AC mains. Then electricity is converted to the cleanest and most stable DC voltage. Anything that power conditioner might do is completely undone inside electronics before superior circuits make that electricity the ‘cleanest’. Cleaning AC power is recommended where consumers have no idea what happens inside electronics. That 'cleaning' is completely undone. Filtered each time before another conversion. Rumored AC power anomalies cannot exist in a power supply’s output. Except in myths. How does the power conditioner fix frequency variations? It doesn't. But the Furman and Belkin make that subjective claim - so it must be true? Circuits inside all electronics make frequency variation irrelevant. Or did Furman and APC forget to mention that. What happens if an appliance sees a 90 joule surge? Due to existing circuits, that 90 joules is called noise. Many electronics will convert that noise into stable DC voltages. Use that 90 joules ‘surge’ for internal power, selkec - the long post said voltage fluctuations are irrelevant. And said why. A majority who recommend without number and reasons why are best ignored. Any recommendation without numbers is best called a lie. Or did we not learn from Saddam’s WMDs? We are all supposed to learn from historical mistakes. As taught by history, read spec numbers even provided by each of your electronics. Why do you make help even harder by not providing those numbers? The manufacturer listed every 100% perfect voltage. What are those numbers? If you love to be scammed, then only listen to recommendations without numbers. Any recommendation without numbers and reasons why is best called fiction. Why are the majority of books in a library fiction? Do you listen to a majority? Or listen to facts provided with numbers? Well all I can say is you take all the fun out of audio. You are like the person who goes around telling kids that Santa Claus doesn't exist. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2011 13:53:53 GMT -5
+1 Thank you for exposing the myth of "power conditioners." I am more concerned with close by lightning strikes like the one that took out my cable modem a few weeks ago.
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Post by cougar75 on Aug 3, 2011 16:45:14 GMT -5
Lightning does not care what you are using for protection. It does what it wants when it wants.
Took a direct hit in 2000. Fire department could not believe the house did not catch fire. Lost everything in the house except for the major appliances. Insurance claim was over $10,000 and that was in 2000 (dollars).
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Post by roadrunner on Aug 3, 2011 17:17:00 GMT -5
westom
Your contention that "Any cleaning of distortion, EMI, RFI, etc is completely undone inside electronics" is not accurate. What you are trying to feed to us is akin to the misinformation the manufacturers publish to sell their products. I understand what happens in electronics and I am familiar with the circuit designs. I used to design audio amps and pre-amps. Parts of what you have posted in this thread are accurate, but your conclusions are not. Which is worse? ...your half-truths or the vendor's misinformation?
By your contentions, there is no such thing as ground loop hum or distorted signals caused by dirty electrical environments. There is not an audiophile who has not heard the impact of these unfiltered anomalies.
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Post by selkec on Aug 3, 2011 18:54:36 GMT -5
So can we sum it up somehow.
Is the apch15 better because it stabalizes the voltage to 120 plus has surge protection. Not as high as the Belkin.
Or is the belkin better bacause it has higher joule rating? Other than higher joule rating in the belkin I see nothing else important it can do that the apc cant.
Is a constant 120 volts not important when you have big fluctuations like I do possible 120 +/-10v.
If voltage fluctuations really do not matter then I want the best surge protection. the reason.....Is because my renters insurance has a 1000 deductable. Besides my tv nothing else costs 1000 so if I had a lightening strike I would have to rebuy the item or items. Im wanting to protect my equipment the best I can for this price range. for peice of mind and also so I dont have to deal with the insurance co.
Looks like the apc is winning 50% of the votes so far.
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Post by westom on Aug 3, 2011 19:03:19 GMT -5
By your contentions, there is no such thing as ground loop hum or distorted signals caused by dirty electrical environments. Absolutely not. If you are making that conclusion from my post, you have added facts I did not state. Nothing about a completely different anomaly - ground loops - was posted. Power conditioners pretend to clean DC power inside electronics. That is bogus. Not discussed is another completely different problem that bypasses a supply and line conditioners. Nothing can block, filter, or clean that bypass path without violating safety standards. That bypass (and other interesting anomalies) makes this stuff challenging. As you probably know, ground loops may become quite challenging. In part because the loop may be due to circuits / connection / failures inside an amp, in house wiring, etc. And those ‘variables’ are unknown to the poor victim who must solve it. But this should be obvious to everyone. Anything that a power conditioner does to incoming power is first undone; converted first to high voltage radio waves and other 'dirtiest' power. Then that 'dirtiest' power is converted to the cleanest power in the house. That task must be performed inside all electronics. Power supplies are amazing creatures. Amazing for how many tasks each must perform and for so little money. I had not discussed other anomalies, ie ground loops.. Discussed are those many $hundreds power conditioners that claim (in urban myths and sales brochures) to eliminate all anomalies. At best, it lists near zero solutions in spec sheets. If it lists any solutions. Bottom line - no power conditioner claims effective surge protection in the only place that matters - manufacturer spec sheets. Direct lightning strikes to income utility wires cause no damage IF the homeowner has properly installed solutions well proven even 100 years ago. Destrucitive surges are hundreds of thousands of joules. Hundreds of joules inside any protector that will somehow absorb hundreds of thousands of joules? It works when selling to consumers who ignore numbers. Who assume that Belkin, et al will magically stop what three miles of sky could not. Ground loops are another and different anomaly.
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Post by selkec on Aug 3, 2011 19:12:00 GMT -5
^^^^^^
So are you saying power conditioners are pointless. And also surge protectors are also pointless? SInce the joule rating is only in the thousands and lightening is hundreds of thousands.
If both do nothing really. Then what do you suggest to people that rent. I can not install some whole house protector or anything. These things are all I can do.
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Post by westom on Aug 3, 2011 21:05:47 GMT -5
So are you saying power conditioners are pointless. And also surge protectors are also pointless? SInce the joule rating is only in the thousands and lightening is hundreds of thousands. Read with greater care. For example, two different types of protectors were identified. One type is a profit center. Other should exist in every home so that protection inside appliances is not overwhelmed. Why do telcos suffer 100 surges with each thunderstorm without damage? Direct strikes even to wires that connect to a $multi-million computer. Computer undamaged. That second type protector is always installed. Same solution should exist in your house. If not yet said clear enough, first a problem (anomaly) is identified. Fixing it comes much later. But power conditioners that claims to save the world and have no spec numbers that claim that protection. Why would anyone recommend it? Some venues (ie recoding studios) use series mode filters for good purpose. But again, the problem is identified. Then a product that actually solves it, with spec numbers, is obtained. Products from Belkin, Furman, Monster etc have bad reputations when it comes honesty in advertising. Guys know these companies for better reputations: GE, ABB, Intermatic, Square D, Leviton, Eaton, Siemens and others. A best place to start is to first identify the problem. Then view manufacturer numeric specifications for a solution. Useful recommendations point to products with relevant numbers. Recommendations without those numbers should always cause suspicion. As a renter, you have many options. Including a responsible landlord who would be happy to install your protector for his appliances. The electric company can also install one behind their meter.
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Post by selkec on Aug 4, 2011 6:42:09 GMT -5
My landlord is not going to install anything to protect my electronics. Lol Not many would. Thats the last of his worries. I just want some peice of mind. Even if it does not work.
Is there any simple answer. No long reading or big paragraphs that go into stuff about recording studios. I appreciate your knowledge westom but maybe its just over my head.
Maybe there is no cut and dry answer to this question. But the poll is showing the apc kicking the ass of the others.
\But now emotiva mentioned something in the podcast. I wonder if it mis heard it. Im sure its not a power conditioner but maybe an outlet center. That would be nice to have a matching one since I have only 2 outlets.
But i still want something to try to protect my gear.
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Post by westom on Aug 4, 2011 9:47:44 GMT -5
My landlord is not going to install anything to protect my electronics. ... But i still want something to try to protect my gear. If your gear is at risk, then so are his stove, refrigerator, dishwasher, and all his GFCIs. He installs a protector you buy to protect HIS stuff. Please stop ignoring the word “HIS”. How often are bathroom GFCIs being destroyed? ‘His’ GFCIs will fail at least as often as your electronics. GFCIs have less protection than your electronics. Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. How often is your landlord replacing HIS surge damage dishwashers? How hard is installing a protector? Often a girl who reads or installs electric meters will install a protector behind your meter. Why is renting one from the electric company so difficult? APC is recommended because a majority are that easily manipulated. My father enjoyed advertising. So many are only told how to think. Fun was to tell lies and have them believe. But the government would take the fun out of it. FTC kept insisting they tell the truth. Your APC voters are why my father so love advertising. The APC has no earth ground. It claims no protection in its numeric specs. Two simplest reasons why it does virtually no protection. Why is that hard? How often do the landlord and neighbors replace appliances? If you have surges, the landlord is more than happy to have you protection HIS appliances. Even the electric company can install a protector behind the meter. Something that actually does protection is simple. Other options also exist.
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Post by flamingeye on Aug 4, 2011 11:07:47 GMT -5
APC does say that if any of your connected equipment is damaged it will pay up to ? I don`t remember the $ amount but it`s in the thousands
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Post by westom on Aug 4, 2011 12:03:57 GMT -5
APC does say that if any of your connected equipment is damaged it will pay up to ? I don`t remember the $ amount but it`s in the thousands GM cars have a best warranty. That proves that GM cars are superior to Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda? Nonsense. Please learn how free markets really work. Products with a best warranty are often the worst. What do I constantly request? Read what is actually written. Read the fine print. And to always grasp numbers as if your life depended on it. Your post is subjective. Lacks details and numbers. An example of what the most easily deceived would trust. And what any informed consumer would reject. APC warranties have so many exemptions as to not be honored. For example one APC warranty said a protector from any other manufacturer in the house voided their warranty. Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in "UPS for computer and TV" > I lost the modem board in an early generation commercial high volume fax which > was 'protected' by an APC UPS. > I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved together with the purchase > receipt, and contacted them to submit a warranty claim. ... > They laughed in my face. Almost could not have been more insulting. > I wrote to the executive management of the company, copied customer service, > sent both return receipt to prove they received them, and never got the courtesy > of a reply. A big buck warranty often identifies the most inferior product. Products with largest warranties are often recommended by consumers who think subjectively – are easiest to scam. Posted are zero reasons to believe that APC does any protection. Show me the numbers? Where is even one spec number that claims protection? Not posted for one simple reason. APC does not claim that protection.
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Post by flamingeye on Aug 4, 2011 13:28:47 GMT -5
I was just saying and for the record I bought my APC for the crappy power in my home which the APC did clean up because my A/V system did improve when I added the APC And also audioholics did a review of the APC and said they where well built with quality parts and they did as advertised as fare as filtering regulating etc not just empty boxes with outlets like many are
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Post by selkec on Aug 4, 2011 18:39:29 GMT -5
My landlord is not going to install anything to protect my electronics. ... But i still want something to try to protect my gear. If your gear is at risk, then so are his stove, refrigerator, dishwasher, and all his GFCIs. He installs a protector you buy to protect HIS stuff. Please stop ignoring the word “HIS”. How often are bathroom GFCIs being destroyed? ‘His’ GFCIs will fail at least as often as your electronics. GFCIs have less protection than your electronics. Destructive surges occur maybe once every seven years. How often is your landlord replacing HIS surge damage dishwashers? How hard is installing a protector? Often a girl who reads or installs electric meters will install a protector behind your meter. Why is renting one from the electric company so difficult? APC is recommended because a majority are that easily manipulated. My father enjoyed advertising. So many are only told how to think. Fun was to tell lies and have them believe. But the government would take the fun out of it. FTC kept insisting they tell the truth. Your APC voters are why my father so love advertising. The APC has no earth ground. It claims no protection in its numeric specs. Two simplest reasons why it does virtually no protection. Why is that hard? How often do the landlord and neighbors replace appliances? If you have surges, the landlord is more than happy to have you protection HIS appliances. Even the electric company can install a protector behind the meter. Something that actually does protection is simple. Other options also exist. This rental was built in the 60's. It has not one GFI outlet in it. None of the appliances have ever been damaged by electricity while I have lived here. He is also a tight wad and after 6 months of bitching about the original driveway I got a brand new one. I dont think he would ever fall for adding any surge protectors. But if its an option to rent one for cheap and the electric co would install it. I will have to check into this. Sounds like a good idea. From both threads going about these to me it sounds like people like both.
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Post by westom on Aug 4, 2011 19:03:47 GMT -5
This rental was built in the 60's. It has not one GFI outlet in it. None of the appliances have ever been damaged by electricity while I have lived here. He is also a tight wad ... You have introduced other potential problems. For example, early 1960 buildings had no safety ground. Many two prong receptacles were replaced with three prong – without a safety ground. Due to layers of protection inside appliances, a missing safety ground is not a problem. However, a missing safety ground is much like the Challenger O'rings. "We don't need the primary protection because be have backup o'rings." You really should confirm those safety grounds do make the necessary connection back to a breaker box. A three light tester selling for about $5 in Lowes or Home Depot (and elsewhere) can report a defective safety ground. But cannot report a safety ground as good. Well, that is better than nothing. If in doubt or if safety ground is missing, best is to power any interconnected appliances from a common power strip (ie $4 or $7 in Wal-Mart). Then all appliances share a common ground (just not a safety ground). Another appliance fault to its safety ground also would not damage those electronics. It is almost inconceivable a that any rental can be leased without bathroom and kitchen GFCIs installed. Local codes often require it even if wiring is not upgraded. And finally, one item so often missing on homes of that vintage and older is earth ground. Earth ground does more than just surge protection. Is essential for human safety. Often the disconnected earth ground is ignored when lights still work. Too often the old standard, a ground to a cold water pipe, is insufficient earthing. Even the telephone 'installed for free' protector is compromised when it is grounded to a distant water pipe. Not to a simple ten foot ground rod often located adjacent to the electric meter and breaker box. It’s a rental. So you may not be able to inspect it. However, any opportunity to inspect the earth ground is strongly advised. It is rare. A failure in a transformer causes his neutral to disconnect. Had the earth ground existed, electricity would have used that path until the problem was detected and solved. Earth ground was missing. Homeowner assumed everything OK because the lights still worked; just changed intensity. He even thought intensity changes were acceptable. Electricity found an alternative return path via the gas meter. Fortunately nobody was home when the gas line exploded inside the garage. Anything you can do to verify both grounds is advisable. For redundant protection of appliances. And for human safety. I would be more concern if ground were missing than I would about surges.
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Post by richtx6 on Aug 4, 2011 20:31:29 GMT -5
I have the Belkin pf30 because it does about everything the 60 does Speakers, preamp, cd, turntable, and computer plugged in to it. It also looks great on top of the USP-1. XPA-1's are direct to wall outlet because they have regulators built in. Can't tell much difference. Just wanted surge protection and the PF30 provides that.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Aug 5, 2011 3:01:23 GMT -5
Just as a point of trivia, over here a GFCI would be called an ELCB but they have been superceded by RCDs which the GFCI might actually consist of.
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Post by selkec on Aug 5, 2011 6:24:17 GMT -5
westom
I did the outlet test since I use one at work all the time. I have some outlets that are grounded and some not. the wiring in the basement is a mess. I can see so many splices in old metal boxes. Im half tempted to run a few lines myself directly to the breaker box. I did not check the earth ground but I believe when I installed the cable I remember a ground rod. I just think someone has ran crappy additional outlets over the years and didnt connect the ground to all the newer outlets. This I can fix easliy. Or Ill sabotage the bad outlets and tell them to come fix them.
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