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Post by Topend on Jun 2, 2012 16:22:42 GMT -5
I believe that it was DYohn who once stated that some people don't buy if the price is too low. And many high-end manufacturers are well aware of that mentality and do make a good living off it ;D Lucky for some. Dave.
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Post by sharkman on Jun 2, 2012 22:04:39 GMT -5
Uh, NAD and Anthem are not going to be direct competition for the XMC as they are in different price categories. It's Marantz that will be direct competition. Their 7005, though not perfect, was much better than the UMC. The question is, will the 7006(or whatever model number) include the best Audyssey version, and will it have that great Marantz house sound.
I haven't heard if Onkyo or Integra will be updating their pre-pros any time soon, but the Onkyo 818 has Audyssey XT32, and is bristling with the latest features and options for under 1200. So there certainly are a few different options, but if the XMC can have a bug free launch and no QC problems, it could compete with the likes of Marantz for sure.
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 2, 2012 22:46:11 GMT -5
Uh, NAD and Anthem are not going to be direct competition for the XMC as they are in different price categories. It's Marantz that will be direct competition. Their 7005, though not perfect, was much better than the UMC. The question is, will the 7006(or whatever model number) include the best Audyssey version, and will it have that great Marantz house sound. I haven't heard if Onkyo or Integra will be updating their pre-pros any time soon, but the Onkyo 818 has Audyssey XT32, and is bristling with the latest features and options for under 1200. So there certainly are a few different options, but if the XMC can have a bug free launch and no QC problems, it could compete with the likes of Marantz for sure. This makes no sense. How is the Marantz ‘direct competition’ to the UMC-1? The Marantz is $1600. The UMC-1 is $500. Please tell me how the UMC-1 should be compared in the same class? On paper, neither the Onkyo nor the Marantz compare to the XMC-1. But then that IS why they play the game isn’t it. If the XMC-1 has a solid launch, I just don’t see how either will compete.
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Post by billmac on Jun 2, 2012 23:13:58 GMT -5
The new Marantz prepro will be the AV7007. It looks like it will not have XT32 as the SR7007 AVR only has XT. The great Marantz "house sound" is most likely the Denon "house sound" as well . The prepros from Onkyo and Integra were recently updated (5509 and 80.3). The 818 looks to be a great AVR that you can buy now for around $950 online. If the XMC-1 has an issue free launch then I see it as a competition for a number of much more expensive prepros. Bill
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Post by billmac on Jun 2, 2012 23:21:28 GMT -5
On paper, neither the Onkyo nor the Marantz compare to the XMC-1. But then that IS why they play the game isn’t it. If the XMC-1 has a solid launch, I just don’t see how either will compete. On paper? I guess that would depend on what features you want in a prepro/AVR. As far as features the 818 and the AV7007 will have a much more current feature set than the XMC-1. So depending on what features you are looking for the 818 and the AV7007 could very well compete with the XMC-1. The key is if the XMC-1 does have a solid launch and that TacT is all that it looks like it can be. Bill
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jun 3, 2012 7:20:27 GMT -5
Emo products on a whole are never going to win the features competitions. Their forte is AUDIOphile performance along with the necessary features for effective simplicity of operation. It is for the person who wants to wow himself, friends and neighbors with a great sounding component/system.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Jun 3, 2012 7:38:43 GMT -5
Perhaps the biggest thing for me is the ability to tweak whatever room correction system you use. The Audessey implementations I've seen absolutely disallow that. That alone has always kept me from using it.
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Post by sharkman on Jun 3, 2012 8:27:35 GMT -5
Uh, NAD and Anthem are not going to be direct competition for the XMC as they are in different price categories. It's Marantz that will be direct competition. Their 7005, though not perfect, was much better than the UMC. The question is, will the 7006(or whatever model number) include the best Audyssey version, and will it have that great Marantz house sound. I haven't heard if Onkyo or Integra will be updating their pre-pros any time soon, but the Onkyo 818 has Audyssey XT32, and is bristling with the latest features and options for under 1200. So there certainly are a few different options, but if the XMC can have a bug free launch and no QC problems, it could compete with the likes of Marantz for sure. This makes no sense. How is the Marantz ‘direct competition’ to the UMC-1? The Marantz is $1600. The UMC-1 is $500. Please tell me how the UMC-1 should be compared in the same class? On paper, neither the Onkyo nor the Marantz compare to the XMC-1. But then that IS why they play the game isn’t it. If the XMC-1 has a solid launch, I just don’t see how either will compete. When the UMC came out it was not 500. It was being suggested around here that it was a better option than the other entry level pre-pros, I'm not sure if you are aware of that by your comments. Have you compared the not yet release Marantz models? In what ways is the XMC better when neither has been released yet? In the room comparison is far better than "on paper" comparisons.
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 3, 2012 8:27:59 GMT -5
On paper? I guess that would depend on what features you want in a prepro/AVR. As far as features the 818 and the AV7007 will have a much more current feature set than the XMC-1. So depending on what features you are looking for the 818 and the AV7007 could very well compete with the XMC-1. The key is if the XMC-1 does have a solid launch and that TacT is all that it looks like it can be. Bill Hi Bill, I don't care that an AVR has so many more whistles and bells than say the UMC-1 or the yet to be released XMC-1. What I do care about is the sound quality of audio. In fact, I am looking at AVR's and pre-pro's right now and one of the first things I look at is the DAC. I could care less if I can hook up an iPod to it or some other 'gimickie' feature. As far as a problem free launch, we'll have to see. I'm sure there will be at least a few people with a unique HTPC set-up or some such unique configuration that will report having an issue. But don't ALL manufacturers have at least some sort of issue at launch or at some point during a products lifecycle? For example, I don't even try to keep up with the Onkyo issues thread on AVS since it's such a long read.
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Post by sharkman on Jun 3, 2012 8:33:11 GMT -5
On paper, neither the Onkyo nor the Marantz compare to the XMC-1. But then that IS why they play the game isn’t it. If the XMC-1 has a solid launch, I just don’t see how either will compete. On paper? I guess that would depend on what features you want in a prepro/AVR. As far as features the 818 and the AV7007 will have a much more current feature set than the XMC-1. So depending on what features you are looking for the 818 and the AV7007 could very well compete with the XMC-1. The key is if the XMC-1 does have a solid launch and that TacT is all that it looks like it can be. Bill Yep, that's the bottom line, if the XMC has a launch with multiple bugs and issues, while Marantz, Onkyo, Integra and Outlaw have models that are solid, people will tend to go for the trouble free option. I wasn't aware that the Marantz 7007 wouldn't have the XT32. That seems to be the way the Denon group is going while Onkyo offers it in an AVR for 950! Any word on the improvements the 7007 will have?
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 3, 2012 8:45:44 GMT -5
The new Marantz prepro will be the AV7007. It looks like it will not have XT32 as the SR7007 AVR only has XT. The great Marantz "house sound" is most likely the Denon "house sound" as well . The prepros from Onkyo and Integra were recently updated (5509 and 80.3). The 818 looks to be a great AVR that you can buy now for around $950 online. If the XMC-1 has an issue free launch then I see it as a competition for a number of much more expensive prepros. Bill Bill, what is the Marantz 'house sound' you are referring to? Are you saying that AVR’s have unique individual sound characteristics…? Go over to AVS… and over there, they claim the only thing that sets an AVR apart from the next is the room correction software because there is no audible difference between AVR’s. From what I'm seeing with the XMC-1 on-paper, if it has a problem free launch, I think it will be fun to try and find something in the sub $2000 range that competes with it. And personally, I think it will be competing with gear that is more than twice its price. But since the XMC-1 has not even been released yet, I think this conversation is WAYYYY ahead of itself. We'll probably know in a few months. I’m actually putting my money where my mouth is, as I have all but made my decision to purchase the UMC-1 to get the upgrade option for the XMC-1. I’ve been looking at the Integra DHC 40.2. The Denon 4311. The Anthem MRX-300. The UMC-1. And even a few Pioneer Elites…
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 3, 2012 9:01:23 GMT -5
When the UMC came out it was not 500. It was being suggested around here that it was a better option than the other entry level pre-pros, I'm not sure if you are aware of that by your comments. Have you compared the not yet release Marantz models? In what ways is the XMC better when neither has been released yet? In the room comparison is far better than "on paper" comparisons. Shark, I KNOW the UMC-1 was NOT originally released for $499. My pricing comparisons were from sources where you can get each for right now. I got the Marantz price from Outlaw Audio. It’s no secret as they have it listed right on their site for $1599. I just don’t see where $499 and $1599 are the same class. Further, I think you’d have to agree that the UMC-1 is a different product now, than it was at launch. This goes for many products during their lifecycle. From a price perspective, RIGHT NOW, the Denon 4311 is in my price range. How much was it at launch? Personally, I don’t even care about the past, because we are not talking about the past, (I’m not anyways) we are talking present and future. I have not seen the YET to be released Marantz models. What DAC will they have? If you are going to try and sell me on the fact that they have ‘features’ that will allow me to hook up an iPod to them, don’t waste your time. I’m not interested.
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 3, 2012 9:17:13 GMT -5
Yep, that's the bottom line, if the XMC has a launch with multiple bugs and issues, while Marantz, Onkyo, Integra and Outlaw have models that are solid, people will tend to go for the trouble free option. I wasn't aware that the Marantz 7007 wouldn't have the XT32. That seems to be the way the Denon group is going while Onkyo offers it in an AVR for 950! Any word on the improvements the 7007 will have? What if the XMC-1 has a ‘bug free’ solid launch and the Onkyo, Marantz, Integra or Outlaw have issues as long as this thread… www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1339186I'ts like 47 pages long… I’m just saying…
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Post by sharkman on Jun 3, 2012 9:32:36 GMT -5
When the UMC came out it was not 500. It was being suggested around here that it was a better option than the other entry level pre-pros, I'm not sure if you are aware of that by your comments. Have you compared the not yet release Marantz models? In what ways is the XMC better when neither has been released yet? In the room comparison is far better than "on paper" comparisons. Shark, I KNOW the UMC-1 was NOT originally released for $499. My pricing comparisons were from sources where you can get each for right now. I got the Marantz price from Outlaw Audio. It’s no secret as they have it listed right on their site for $1599. I just don’t see where $499 and $1599 are the same class. Further, I think you’d have to agree that the UMC-1 is a different product now, than it was at launch. This goes for many products during their lifecycle. From a price perspective, RIGHT NOW, the Denon 4311 is in my price range. How much was it at launch? Personally, I don’t even care about the past, because we are not talking about the past, (I’m not anyways) we are talking present and future. I have not seen the YET to be released Marantz models. What DAC will they have? If you are going to try and sell me on the fact that they have ‘features’ that will allow me to hook up an iPod to them, don’t waste your time. I’m not interested. The point is the Marantz is still selling for it's full retail price, but the UMC has been heavily discounted, which tells us the Marantz is selling fine while the UMC needed some help. As for the upcoming models, you haven't seen the Marantz, OR THE XMC since neither has been released yet. So it's not reasonable to say that one is better than the other. And I'm not trying to sell you on anything, buy a HTIB if you like. I'm just pointing out a few things about the situation. The XMC could be the home run they promised us with the UMC, and become a new standard with its tact. It needs to be bug free on release though.
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Post by billmac on Jun 3, 2012 9:33:23 GMT -5
I agree as I'm not interested in the latest greatest features but many others are. That is why I mentioned features from a competitive stand point. Not everyone is looking for the best in 2CH SQ as some here are (myself included). The XMC-1 is a surround sound processor and many are looking for performance more geared towards HT than music. That will be the big question. I agree that all manufacturers have issues when a new product such as a prepro/AVR is released. Onkyo's reliability and QC problems with their AVR/prepros is well known . If they do not correct that in this next round of unit releases it will not help their already terrible track record. Bill
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 3, 2012 10:24:16 GMT -5
That will be the big question. I agree that all manufacturers have issues when a new product such as a prepro/AVR is released. Onkyo's reliablity and QC problems with their AVR/prepros is well known . If they do not correct that in this next round of unit releases it will not help their already terrible track record. Bill You got it Bill. I've been interested and researching pre-pro’s and receivers for the last few years. I am the KING of procrastination. I know the UMC-1 had issues when it was released. But I also know the other manufacturers have their share of issues as well. When I look for a processor, I look first and foremost in the audio fidelity. I have been able to hear Emotiva combo’s on a few different occasions, including the UMC-1 and each time, I have been impressed.
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Post by billmac on Jun 3, 2012 10:27:59 GMT -5
Well time will tell if all those mentioned are issue free AVR/prepros. The Outlaw isn't even out yet so it will be interesting to see if the XMC-1 is released first. The specs for the AV7007 have not been released yet but the SR7007's specs have been and it only has XT. So it would be a good bet that the AV7007 will only have XT as well. It seems that D&M Holdings parent company of Denon and Marantz will only be offering XT32 in the higher end AVR/prepros. It looks to me that there will not be any significant improvements with the AV7007 other than 4K video and a third HDMI output. Those are two features that I have no interest in at all. Bill
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Post by suffolk112000 on Jun 3, 2012 10:31:08 GMT -5
I wanted to also address this comment... The point is the Marantz is still selling for it's full retail price, but the UMC has been heavily discounted, which tells us the Marantz is selling fine while the UMC needed some help. That's what happens at the end of a products life cyle. You can usually pick them up at a discount. Does the Denon 4311 suck? It MSRP'd for $2000 at initial release. Now you can pick one up for just north of $1200. Would you call that being 'heavily discounted'? I know I would. There is a UMC-2 in the future. Just as I'm sure there is a Denon in the future to replace the 4311.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jun 3, 2012 10:35:20 GMT -5
IMO, the UMC-1 has audio quality better than most receivers on the market, certainly better than anything that I've ever heard in its price range, and it rivals the best receiver I've ever heard, the Denon 5805. But if it's features you want, sure go for a receiver. Even though the preamp section of most receivers is compromised in ways no separate has to be, they do pack a ton of features into them as a way of selling them.
I gave up on the UMC-1 and went with a Marantz AV7005 only because of HDMI lock on speed and stability, which is simply better than the UMC-1 was. But the clarity of the audio was superior in the Emotiva, and IMO Audyssey as used in the Marantz destroys the sound quality for music (although it is pretty decent for film soundtracks.) Plus I miss being able to customize the sound with the built-in EQ of the UMC-1.
If the XMC-1 addresses the shortcomings of the UMC-1, it may turn out to be the world-class product that I thought the UMC-1 could have been based on its on-paper specs, and I'm looking forward to comparing it to the AV7005. But only time will tell, and none of us can possibly know how it will perform until after it has shipped.
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Post by sharkman on Jun 3, 2012 10:41:29 GMT -5
I wanted to also address this comment... The point is the Marantz is still selling for it's full retail price, but the UMC has been heavily discounted, which tells us the Marantz is selling fine while the UMC needed some help. That's what happens at the end of a products life cyle. You can usually pick them up at a discount. Does the Denon 4311 suck? It MSRP'd for $2000 at initial release. Now you can pick one up for just north of $1200. Would you call that being 'heavily discounted'? I know I would. There is a UMC-2 in the future. Just as I'm sure there is a Denon in the future to replace the 4311. I don't know, does the 4311 suck? Was I saying that the UMC sucks? And why is the Marantz still selling near it's full retail since it's at the end of it's life cycle and being replaced?
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