KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,986
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Post by KeithL on Apr 7, 2013 18:06:02 GMT -5
Hmmmmm. If you use Google a bit, you will sadly be forced to conclude that NOBODY can come out with a pre/pro that is TOTALLY bug free - AT ANY PRICE. (But then, neither can major computer software companies, with almost unlimited resources. Microsoft just gave up and now automatically issues an "update and bug fix" every second Tuesday - they don't even hope to have a month where no new bugs are found anymore. We would prefer to avoid that sort of situation.) I would love to be optimistic and say that the XMC-1 will be perfect, but I'm not that foolish. Let's just settle for saying that it will have the most advanced feature set available for less than the price of a small house, and we're going to try real hard to make sure that there are as few bugs as is humanly possibly. Oh, and we're also going to be sure it sounds very good as well - which seems to be something that some of our competitors seem to not be so worried about. And, yes, doing the best job that we can to ensure the best product we can deliver has caused delays (and may even cause a few more). Dude, it isn't like you are getting one anyway. Am I right? I already gave up along time ago, Emotiva gave me no reason to believe they are capable of producing a fully functional preamp processor with very few bugs and on a timely fashion, and they proven me right! .......although still hope they can pull it off, maybe it will win me back to purchase there next generation preamp processor!......and by the way it's not Dude!
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Post by mickeyharlow on Apr 7, 2013 18:21:57 GMT -5
Hmmmmm. If you use Google a bit, you will sadly be forced to conclude that NOBODY can come out with a pre/pro that is TOTALLY bug free - AT ANY PRICE. (But then, neither can major computer software companies, with almost unlimited resources. Microsoft just gave up and now automatically issues an "update and bug fix" every second Tuesday - they don't even hope to have a month where no new bugs are found anymore. We would prefer to avoid that sort of situation.) I would love to be optimistic and say that the XMC-1 will be perfect, but I'm not that foolish. Let's just settle for saying that it will have the most advanced feature set available for less than the price of a small house, and we're going to try real hard to make sure that there are as few bugs as is humanly possibly. Oh, and we're also going to be sure it sounds very good as well - which seems to be something that some of our competitors seem to not be so worried about. And, yes, doing the best job that we can to ensure the best product we can deliver has caused delays (and may even cause a few more). I already gave up along time ago, Emotiva gave me no reason to believe they are capable of producing a fully functional preamp processor with very few bugs and on a timely fashion, and they proven me right! .......although still hope they can pull it off, maybe it will win me back to purchase there next generation preamp processor!......and by the way it's not Dude! Thank you Keith for the update. I would rather have the product at the best at release than a short-sighted release just to appease the impatient. I do understand that any product that has software code can not be 100% perfect upon release. I also know by history that Emotiva will do anything within reason to correct any imperfections.
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Post by srrndhound on Apr 7, 2013 20:25:29 GMT -5
I've used many bad loudness compensation features in my time and straight Fletcher-Munson seems to be too drastic. I recently got a receiver with Audyssey Dynamic EQ and now I have it turned on all the time (reference level set to 15dB for the least compensation. I like the ability to tweak that, though even -15dB isn't low enough for some pop music). So does TACT provide the dynamic eq? After all, it is listed as "DYNAMIC" Room Correction. There are two types of loudness compensation. Conventional and dynamic. In the conventional case, the amount of bass boost varies as the volume control is changed. Once you set the volume control, the applied EQ curve is fixed. Static. Not dynamic. Audyssey DEQ responds to the volume control, but it also responds to the audio signal at any given moment. As the audio changes, the applied EQ changes. Hence, dynamic EQ. The information I found on Tact DRC (http://www.tactlab.com/DRC/how_DRC_works.html), explains its operation. First, they call it Dynamic Room Correction. The target curve is what defines the room correction EQ curve. The loudness compensation function just alters that target curve. Makes sense. As for dynamic, it is not dynamic in the sense of DEQ. It is only dynamic in that as one turns the volume control, the fixed EQ changes accordingly. Once the volume setting is set, the EQ curve is fixed. So it operates just like a conventional loudness comp circuit in that respect.
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Post by fantom on Apr 8, 2013 13:05:04 GMT -5
I've used many bad loudness compensation features in my time and straight Fletcher-Munson seems to be too drastic. I recently got a receiver with Audyssey Dynamic EQ and now I have it turned on all the time (reference level set to 15dB for the least compensation. I like the ability to tweak that, though even -15dB isn't low enough for some pop music). So does TACT provide the dynamic eq? After all, it is listed as "DYNAMIC" Room Correction. There are two types of loudness compensation. Conventional and dynamic. In the conventional case, the amount of bass boost varies as the volume control is changed. Once you set the volume control, the applied EQ curve is fixed. Static. Not dynamic. Audyssey DEQ responds to the volume control, but it also responds to the audio signal at any given moment. As the audio changes, the applied EQ changes. Hence, dynamic EQ. The information I found on Tact DRC (http://www.tactlab.com/DRC/how_DRC_works.html), explains its operation. First, they call it Dynamic Room Correction. The target curve is what defines the room correction EQ curve. The loudness compensation function just alters that target curve. Makes sense. As for dynamic, it is not dynamic in the sense of DEQ. It is only dynamic in that as one turns the volume control, the fixed EQ changes accordingly. Once the volume setting is set, the EQ curve is fixed. So it operates just like a conventional loudness comp circuit in that respect. That link you posted appears to be down. However, from the link I posted: "The TacT Theater Dynamic Room Correction system adjusts the system response to a specific target curve and then applies a sophisticated loudness compensation algorithm that dynamically adjusts the tonal balance of the system based on volume. The result is exceptional sound reproduction, at all listening levels." You're correct that this could just mean based on the volume knob and not the actual volume of the signal. Even still, Audyssey DEQ performs best when you set the reference level close to the actual material's mixing level. It does manage well with content +/-10dB from there though, which is nice. If we're all on the same page, Keith pointed out that the full TacT system can include DEQ functionality, but Emo is still working out the feature set that will be included. And Keith, yes, the feature sets of Audyssey vary from the flagships down, but features trickle down over time, and DEQ has now trickled down to rather mid-range products. So it would be nice to see this from Emo's flagship product.
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Post by fantom on Apr 8, 2013 13:21:21 GMT -5
To add to my comments, I could see different users wanting both modes: static, varying only with volume knob changes, and dynamic, varying with the audio signal. Currently, Audyssey only offers dynamic or nothing at all (unless your pro contains a separate loudness feature). I would be ok with the static (volume knob based) variety, provided it has a tweakable reference level and performs well. As I stated originally, even for just volume knob based solutions, most compensate the bass far too much. When it's overdone, I feel my only option is to turn it off, but Audyssey DEQ works well enough that I couldn't go back to nothing at all. Also, I feel like the treble adjustments are just as important as the bass adjustments in making low volume listening as engaging as reference level listening. Before experiencing how good it could make low volume listening sound, this was never a deal breaker feature for me. Now it's near the top of my list and the XMC appears to be stacking up to satisfy everything else on my wishlist with audio quality well beyond anything I've ever owned. So I'm hesitantly excited...
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Erwin.BE
Emo VIPs
It's the room, stupid!
Posts: 2,268
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Post by Erwin.BE on Apr 8, 2013 14:47:03 GMT -5
So it would be nice to see this from Emo's flagship product. Just as an aside: the XMC-1 is not the flagship pre-pro. There will be a 12-channel XPR-style pre-pro based and expanded upon the XMC. That's the one I lust for.
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HDSapper
Emo VIPs
"Any problem on earth can be solved with the careful application of high explosives."
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Post by HDSapper on Apr 8, 2013 15:53:46 GMT -5
Unfortunately, though, it's still all flag and no ship!
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Post by jukebox on Apr 8, 2013 19:47:55 GMT -5
I already gave up along time ago, Emotiva gave me no reason to believe they are capable of producing a fully functional preamp processor with very few bugs and on a timely fashion, and they proven me right! .......although still hope they can pull it off, maybe it will win me back to purchase there next generation preamp processor!......and by the way it's not Dude! I too have moved on but don't feel the need to post like you do. You know vendetta like. Emotiva owes you nothing so why are you so "angry" all the time. Just chill out and stop the crying game already. Peace. Who's angry?.........why did I hit a nerve......sounds like your crying.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2013 19:58:49 GMT -5
So it would be nice to see this from Emo's flagship product. Just as an aside: the XMC-1 is not the flagship pre-pro. There will be a 12-channel XPR-style pre-pro based and expanded upon the XMC. That's the one I lust for. Thats the one I'll be looking at as well!
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Post by jjmatrix on Apr 8, 2013 20:06:34 GMT -5
I was actually thinking to make a poll: What do you think the reason behind the delay of the XMC-1 is? a) No real reason, they're just lazy. b) Emo is trying to keep everyone on their toes and increase the "desirability" of the product. c) The horoscope revealed the proper launch day to be Aug 14, 2013.
Seriously now, I'm waiting for this product with high hopes like a lot of other people; I too am somewhat disappointed about the delay, but I am 100% positive that there is a serious, good reason behind it. I know it's easier for me since I'm perfectly happy with the UMC-1 I have so I can wait, but still... at this point, I don't think there is anything we can do.
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Post by diablo561 on Apr 8, 2013 22:05:01 GMT -5
Tact
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Post by srrndhound on Apr 8, 2013 23:26:10 GMT -5
That link you posted appears to be down. Opps. Well, no matter, their document is attached for your enjoyment. Yes, RLO (of some form or fashion) is necessary whether the loudness compensation is fixed or dynamic. It cannot, that functionality does not exist in TacT. I think he was simply using the TacT definition of dynamic, not the Audyssey version (also the normal meaning of the term). Too bad TACT chose to apply that term to their conventional loudness comp system. Attachments:
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Post by calvinhobbe on Apr 10, 2013 7:27:19 GMT -5
Unfortunately, though, it's still all flag and no ship! I don't care what you say, that there was funny...
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Bart
Minor Hero
Posts: 14
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Post by Bart on Apr 10, 2013 8:39:04 GMT -5
I think I might be going with the Marantz. If for nothing else than I think I would trust Audyssey more than TacT right now. How stable is the TacT company when their website hasn't been available for months.
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Post by chaosrv on Apr 10, 2013 9:44:53 GMT -5
I'm not defending Tact here but what does a website have to do with a product? They are two entirely separate issues. I have several IT/tech-based clients that actually do not have websites and seem to do quite well for themselves. Well enough to afford my firm's services, anyhow.
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Bart
Minor Hero
Posts: 14
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Post by Bart on Apr 10, 2013 10:12:34 GMT -5
In my opinion, not having a website is one thing, but having one that existed and then not being able to maintain it is another. If I you went Emotiva's website tomorrow and it was no longer valid, wouldn't you question why?
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Post by chaosrv on Apr 10, 2013 14:04:36 GMT -5
I would question it indeed but Emotiva is an internet-direct company. Tact is not. So the comparison is not fair. Many, not all of course, but more than you think higher-end audio/video companies have absolutely terrible websites if they are not doing direct sales. Broken links, missing images or simply haven't been updated this decade but still do brisk business. Perhaps after the issues they had with the website they decided it was no longer worth the trouble to have one. I honestly have no clue. I was just pointing out the possibility that the company's status and website are not, in fact, related.
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Post by Tip on Apr 10, 2013 16:43:58 GMT -5
TacT Audio did have Internet sales of its products, but at the same price you'd pay a dealer. And for all practical purposes, TacT is out of business at this time but may get back into business in the future when Boz thinks the time is right for his new products (see my previous posts). TacT Audio currently is not communicating with its customers or dealers, nor providing service for its products. I'm starting to feel like a broken record (for those of you who remember what a record was ) as I have addressed this issue several times in this thread and others. But Chaosrv is correct, this has nothing to do with the TacT TCS3e room correction in the XMC-1. Boz has a obligation to Emotiva to make sure TCS3e works on the XMC-1 and Emotiva will support the XMC-1 with TCS3e. If Bart would rather buy another pre/pro because of the status of TacT Audio, that is his prerogative. Perhaps he believes that there won't be future upgrades to TCS3e because TacT Audio is not currently in business, but does Audyssey provide upgrades to its room correction in existing products? I don't know, but I don't believe they do. So what does all this have to do with "trust"? It comes down to this: if you want the features that are unique to TacT TCS3e, then wait for the XMC-1. If you don't, or want the features unique to Audyseey or some other room correction system, then buy another pre/pro -- Marantz is a great option. Another topic I'll revisit is all the discussion on Dynamic Room Correction (DRC) (did you know that TacT has trademarked DRC?) I have it on my TCS mkIII and its also on the TacT RCS 2.2XP. I don't use it and I don't know anyone else who does. What I feel is the most important feature that TacT room correction provides is user control of the correction. Some of the more observant of you may have noticed that I've replaced my TacT MH1 actively bi-amp'd main speakers with a pair of Harbeth M40.1s. I liked the sound of the M40.1s so much that I created a target curve that traces the measurement of the M40.1s above 100 Hz with the 20 to 100 Hz range flattened to remove the peaks and dips, and cross them over to my TacT W410 corner-woofers with a 24th-order (144 db/octave) crossover at 200 Hz. I then used the new M40.1 target curve for my center and surround speakers, which use a 24th-order crossover at 80 Hz to my subwoofers. Is that something you can do with Audyssey? I don't think so. (Well you can't do that with the XMC-1 either since it only has two subwoofer outputs where the TCS mkIII has 12 outputs that can be assigned either as main or sub. But maybe RMC-1 can.)
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Post by fantom on Apr 10, 2013 17:16:15 GMT -5
bart Marantz (and Denon, since they're now under the same company and all but their flagship products use the same components) are phenomenal from an audio perspective. However, I recently got my first Denon (3312ci when it was Amazon gold box). For the longest time (unfortunately more than 30 days since I was too busy to really look into it) I couldn't put my finger on why the video wasn't looking quite right. I eventually found that they always process the video to provide an overlay menu display. Fine... except they change color values in the processing when they SHOULD just be passing it thru pixel for pixel. This causes banding issues at best, and horrid complete color changes at worst: I made a test pattern that will turn red and blue lines of pixels into either a region of magenta or a region of bright green, simply depending on whether the red/blue lines begin at an even offset on screen or an odd one. It would actually be quite funny it wasn't something I spent money on. Clearly NOT passthru. Of course, a simple solution is to turn that feature off and just go into hdmi 1.4 passthru mode (same as if the receiver is turned off). Well, then if you try passing full range RGB, it clips to [16, 235]. Just horrid. Denon customer service is proving to be terrible, and I've thus far spent a lot of time trying to deal with them. Perhaps now that I've built an obvious repro case I'll be able to get somewhere. I feel like I'm working on their QA team for free at this point (if they even have one). The generic responses from customer support claim they're going all the way to engineering. The responses show a lack of video processing knowledge. So either they're not actually coming from engineering or their engineers don't understand video. Marantz may very well use different firmware (despite using the same hardware components), but this experience makes me question ever buying from Denon (or possibly Marantz) again. Denon makes great audio hardware but if they can't understand how to simply copy pixels, I'll find someone else to give my money to. FWIW, with normal content, I could see 99.99% of people never noticing the issue. And it even took me awhile to pinpoint it (my job is video processing). However, those people are not in forums discussing gear. I've found a few others who noticed with a couple of last year's models and also got a customer service run around. Not sure if the new models have this issue.. or different issues. EDIT: More detail: I know they used a new chip to be able to provide menu overlay even in 3D mode starting with last year's models. It's likely a misuse of that new chip lead to breaking video for a model year. It may or may not be fixed in the XX13 models, but seeing as they're not even aware it's broken in the XX12 models, they certainly didn't fix it on purpose. And yes this is off topic from Emo gear, but my point is really that even seasoned receiver/processor manufacturers get things way wrong. The difference is that they don't care to fix the issues and just pump out the next year's models. Emo will likely have issues like the rest, but I have more faith in them actually caring to correct the issues.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2013 17:18:21 GMT -5
> In my opinion, not having a website is one thing, but having one that existed and then not being able to maintain it is another.
If I want to know about a company I google them. Rightly or wrongly, if they have a professional, well maintained site I get one opinion of them, If they have no site I have another opinion, and if it is a neglected virus infected amaturish site that hasn't been updated in years I have another opinion. In today's business world, only a fool neglects the internet; or someone who lacks the resources to keep it up.
/b
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