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Post by Jim on Jul 11, 2012 12:43:16 GMT -5
Cool. Central Ohio here for me. I was born and raised in Michigan. Mom went to U of M and I went to MSU. GO BLOW!!! ;D Hahaha, Why yes.. I do agree with your sentiments! Yup... I'm a Buckeye (graduated from OSU).
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 11, 2012 17:40:03 GMT -5
Hahaha, Why yes.. I do agree with your sentiments! Yup... I'm a Buckeye (graduated from OSU), but I would have LOVED to have gone to U of M. It's such a better school, and their football team rocks. Poor you. A F*ckeye. I'd be ashamed to be lurking on a forum based around electronics. Any OSU grads on this forum are in way above their heads. ;D And just like a cheating buckeye to change my quote to make it look like I said something I did not. Someone from Michigan would never do that.
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 11, 2012 17:54:14 GMT -5
Have you ever been to Hanson. I have wondered what brands they carry and what their prices are like. Yes, I've been many times, but not for at least a year now. Nice store now that they've moved. Just check their website for an overview. www.hansonav.com/In a word, expensive. They only carry what I would call high end. The lowest thing they carry is Integra, and it moves up from there to things like Bryston and Moon. They used to carry 3 brands of speakers, Dynaudio, Thiel and Focal. But I believe they carry more now, like Martin Logans. I've also been in there when they have the expensive stuff. I don't remember the exact numbers, so please forgive, but they had some Dynaudio's that were like $75,000 for the pair, and the same with Focal (which I think they may still have). It's definitely worth checking out. Not sure on your budget or what you like, but Kirby over at Audio Etc has a better mix of stuff I think, from lower to higher, and a nicer showroom. His stuff he has in showroom stock changes all the time, but I got the chance to visit when he had his $200,000+ McIntosh system up and running. Very cool. Lots of B&W, Definitive Technology, Paradigm, McIntosh, Classe, Rotel, B&K, Denon, and others. www.audioetc.tv/There used to be a whole list of places 5 or 6 years ago, but the only ones I know still exist I think are these guys. www.audibleelegance.com/Audible Elegance, Montgomery (Cincinnati), used to concentrate towards high end, but now do carry some lower priced things. www.genesisaudio.com/html/frameset-products.htmGenesis Audio, Columbus, never been there or talked with them, but from their website seem to concentrate on higher end. www.progressiveaudio.com/flashindex.htmlProgressive Audio, Columbus, concentrate on the very high end. You know of any more? I'd love to know. Cheers --- Bonzo ;D
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Post by htinparadise on Jul 11, 2012 19:04:43 GMT -5
The solution to your problem might be as simple as an outlet being wired incorrectly (Positive and negative wires reversed). If the seperate outlet that the Denon is on which is wired correctly (with the Monster conditioner I'm guessing), and the other seperate outlet with the Emo XPA 2 is reversed or vice versa, this will result in the harshness problem you are experiencing. You can test for this condition with a low cost outlet tester such as follows: www.amazon.com/GE-50542-Receptacle-Improper-Indicator/dp/B002LZTKIAKindest regards, HTinP
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 12, 2012 10:06:06 GMT -5
The solution to your problem might be as simple as an outlet being wired incorrectly (Positive and negative wires reversed). If the seperate outlet that the Denon is on which is wired correctly (with the Monster conditioner I'm guessing), and the other seperate outlet with the Emo XPA 2 is reversed or vice versa, this will result in the harshness problem you are experiencing. You can test for this condition with a low cost outlet tester such as follows: www.amazon.com/GE-50542-Receptacle-Improper-Indicator/dp/B002LZTKIAKindest regards, HTinP While I really don't think this is my problem this time (actually using the same outlet plug for the Monster Power Bar and the XPA-2. I also don't have a dedicated outlet. Half the room's worth of plugs are all connected together behind the walls, which means from the breaker box all my components and speakers and TV are all on the same 15 amp fuse, which is probably part of the problem), this little gadget is something definitely worth having around. Found one a bit cheaper and ordered it just now. This will be great for testing around the house. Thanks for the post. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002Q3R7HI/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ARJVX78YP4AD2
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2012 11:43:00 GMT -5
odd, because I would of thought the reverse would have happened. Dirty (as in RF and EMI) mains would cause what he was hearing. The XPA amps have built in surge filters but I'm not aware of any noise filtering being built in. BTW, I have a XPA-5 plugged into a Furman 15DM unit that filters and protects the AC coming in. I thought it wouldn't hurt since it doesn't limit amps drawn by the gear. True. I guess I was thinking that the Denon was also plugged into the wall, but it wasn't. If it caused the same scenario with the Denon plugged into the wall, then you are absolutely correct in that it would be dirty supply.
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Post by repeetavx on Jul 17, 2012 0:29:29 GMT -5
I would like to second Bonzo's original post.
I bought an XPA-2 to replace a recently deceased Citation 7.1. I plugged them both into a dedicated 20 amp line.
The XPA-2 had a much harsher sound. Nothing that I could put my finger on, it's just that I found myself always trying to tweek the speakers EQs.
When I read Bonzo's post, I pluged the XPA-2 into one of the Power Amp outlets of my Tice Solo A/V.
Wow, that was the problem. I flattened out the treble EQs and haven't needed to touch them again.
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Post by bigrak on Jul 17, 2012 3:40:46 GMT -5
If the sound is harsh, i would suggest making sure everything is grounded properly. Most line noise is caused by the components attached to that circuit. HT Receivers are horrible in this respect. A lot of them only use 2 prong conector. There are plenty of cables and cords for ground noise to get introduced back into the powerline and disrupt other components. If your receiver has a ground screw on the back, try attaching a wire from the ground screw to the green ground screw on the power outlet that you are using. It only takes a piece of speaker wire and a couple minutes.
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Post by repeetavx on Jul 17, 2012 12:08:18 GMT -5
bigrak,
My receiver is a UMC-1. It was plugged into the power filter from day one. Though FedEx is about to deliver my new CMX-2, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the difference in sound is between it and my Tice Solo.
I do like the idea of grounding my receiver to earth ground.
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Post by bigrak on Jul 17, 2012 22:53:49 GMT -5
Repeet
LET me know how the cmx 2 works out for ya. I am in the market for a surge protector. I have a monster power center but i moved it to my other circuit and have all my noisey components attached to it... ie. computer, Dish DVR, netgear hub, window fan, cell charger, monitor, and my plasma. And then i have my AVR and amp pluged into my other circuit which i added this last weekend. Having 40 amps in my bedroom is nice.
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Post by wcparks on Jul 18, 2012 1:16:03 GMT -5
I don't think the CMX's are surge protectors. They are more of a filter or conditioner to clean up the power. Just don't want you to think your getting something your not.
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Post by Jim on Jul 19, 2012 9:21:29 GMT -5
Hahaha, Why yes.. I do agree with your sentiments! Yup... I'm a Buckeye (graduated from OSU), but I would have LOVED to have gone to U of M. It's such a better school, and their football team rocks. Poor you. A F*ckeye. I'd be ashamed to be lurking on a forum based around electronics. Any OSU grads on this forum are in way above their heads. ;D And just like a cheating buckeye to change my quote to make it look like I said something I did not. Someone from Michigan would never do that. Ouch!! And we don't cheat... we just trade stuff for tattoos! In other news.. "In the event of a tornado warning, the National Weather Service advises all Ann Arbor residents to take immediate shelter in The Big House. A touchdown is highly unlikely to occur there."
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 19, 2012 15:47:34 GMT -5
I would like to second Bonzo's original post. I bought an XPA-2 to replace a recently deceased Citation 7.1. I plugged them both into a dedicated 20 amp line. The XPA-2 had a much harsher sound. Nothing that I could put my finger on, it's just that I found myself always trying to tweek the speakers EQs. When I read Bonzo's post, I pluged the XPA-2 into one of the Power Amp outlets of my Tice Solo A/V. Wow, that was the problem. I flattened out the treble EQs and haven't needed to touch them again. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who has had the same experience. At least I'm not totally crazy. Bad for you, good for me. Sorry to gain at your expense. I plan to test out this theory this weekend by plugging my Denon Receiver directly into the wall and doing some comparisons. If the Denon has the harshness when plugged directly into the wall then the line conditioning is definitely doing something. I then plan to try out the Belkin PF60 model I bought last year that I've never hooked up yet. I want to compare it with my Monster Power Bar. Being that the Belkin is much more "stout" than the Monster, one would think it would be better yet, or at least equal. But I guess you never know until you try it, right. If I like the Belkin I guess it will just be one more obnoxious blue light I need to dim down. Although at least the Belkin can dim itself down to a much more tolerable level.
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Post by repeetavx on Jul 20, 2012 0:48:19 GMT -5
bigrak, Ok, I'm coming up on 24 hours of use (break in) of the CMX-2 Line Conditioner. First I started listening to tunes while my XPA-2 was still plugged into my Tice Solo A/V surge protector and line conditioner. My UMC-1 and Oppo 93 were already plugged into it. If you remember I unplugged the XPA-2 from a dedicated line wall socket and into the Tice, along with the rest of the system, to get rid of harshness. While I was doing this I plugged the CMX-2 into the dedicated line wall socket just to make sure it was going to be happy and let it "warm up". After a couple of hours of preliminary listening I turned the XPA-2 off and unplugged it from the Tice and into one of the two outlets in the CMX-2. I turned it on, started some music and: OMG!!!!! BASS!!! ;D I mean I had some really nice bass before, but now duck and cover. And SOUNDSTAGE!!! First I noticed the depth and texture of the instruments. Then how deep the soundstage was getting. Now throughout the day the soundstage is getting nice and wide too. Ok, I thought to myself. Can I get to much of a good thing? No. So next I shut off my entire system. Then I unplugged the Tice from the wall, and into the other outlet of the CMX-2. Then turned everything back on. When I did, I saw my display was looking dark. No, wait. The black level took a dive to gorgeous. I didn't realize how much contrast I was missing. Then I noticed the increase in the image detail. So here I sit with deep, wide, detailed music. (tweaking the EQ's again). Actually after a few adjustments the music is staying just as gorgeous as I set it to be. Now to be clear. The CMX-2 is NOT a Surge Protector. It is, apparently, an awesome line filter. Most line filters filter noise from the Hot wire to the return wire or the earth ground. Emotiva makes it clear that they filter both the hot and the return. What makes the CMX-2 different from the CMX-6 is that the CMX-2 has circuitry that insures that the return is at earth ground potential and that the hot is centered in relation to it. I find it interesting that most equipment manufactures build some amount of line filtering into their product and then have you supply the surge protection and any additional filtering "if required". Emotiva on the other hand does the opposite. They say that they build surge protection into their product and let you supply line filtering "if required". Let me say that from my experience, you can't get anywhere near the potential performance their products are capable of. Not without the required amount of line filtering your personal setup may require. My personal recommendation is that one of the CMX's is a required item for your Emotiva equipment. Unless you have sufficient line filtering from other sources. Which I thought I did, but I was wrong.
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Post by bigrak on Jul 20, 2012 1:30:03 GMT -5
I will admit that i got a little bit excited after reading your post. I think you have talked me into getting one. And thanks for clairifiying about the surge protector issue. I read it had a magnetic cicuit breaker and assumed they were the same.
Question for you...When you listen to music, are you sending a digital or analog signal to the UMC? I was able to get rid of my grounding issues but i have a schiit bifrost DAC and i can still here a buzz comming from the unit when i put my ear close. Im now begining to wonder if it could be a DC offset problem. Looks like i have some reading to do. Thanks for the update. When it comes to audio equipment, its always great to hear significant improvements can be had for less then 100 dollars
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Post by repeetavx on Jul 20, 2012 2:36:29 GMT -5
bigrak,
All of my sources are digital through HDMI including my home theater PC. I'm just now starting to plan on introducing a turntable into my setup.
Since I've been an electronics technician for thirty years I feel that have some expertise on your problem.
There are two types of system buzzes or hums. The first is electronic, such as ground loops, interference and power offsets. The second is mechanical. I know that solid state devices aren't suppose to have any moving parts but transformers are a special kind of animal.
Electricity in order to be useful must either switch on and off quickly or alternate directions. Whenever electricity moves through a wire it creates a magnetic field around it. When the electricity alternates to the other direction the magnetic field reverses polarity with the electricity's direction. This causes the transformers wires that are wound around each other to constantly push and pull on each other. Transformer manufactures usually dip the windings of a transformer in shellac or encase it in plastic or rubber. None of these precautions can keep the wires from eventually, slowly working themselves free enough to start physically moving. When they do you get a mechanical hum or buzz. Most all of the time this noise is limited to case noise and doesn't effect the signal purity.
If the noise your hearing is loud enough that it is intruding on your listening experience then there is no other recourse but to replace either the transformer or the whole device.
Maybe it can be tightened down or the winding re-glued but these are "for a while" fixes. All power transformers, given long enough, will develop a mechanical buzz.
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 20, 2012 8:22:44 GMT -5
bigrak, Ok, I'm coming up on 24 hours of use (break in) of the CMX-2 Line Conditioner. First I started listening to tunes while my XPA-2 was still plugged into my Tice Solo A/V surge protector and line conditioner. My UMC-1 and Oppo 93 were already plugged into it. If you remember I unplugged the XPA-2 from a dedicated line wall socket and into the Tice, along with the rest of the system, to get rid of harshness. While I was doing this I plugged the CMX-2 into the dedicated line wall socket just to make sure it was going to be happy and let it "warm up". After a couple of hours of preliminary listening I turned the XPA-2 off and unplugged it from the Tice and into one of the two outlets in the CMX-2. I turned it on, started some music and: OMG!!!!! BASS!!! ;D I mean I had some really nice bass before, but now duck and cover. And SOUNDSTAGE!!! First I noticed the depth and texture of the instruments. Then how deep the soundstage was getting. Now throughout the day the soundstage is getting nice and wide too. Ok, I thought to myself. Can I get to much of a good thing? No. So next I shut off my entire system. Then I unplugged the Tice from the wall, and into the other outlet of the CMX-2. Then turned everything back on. When I did, I saw my display was looking dark. No, wait. The black level took a dive to gorgeous. I didn't realize how much contrast I was missing. Then I noticed the increase in the image detail. So here I sit with deep, wide, detailed music. (tweaking the EQ's again). Actually after a few adjustments the music is staying just as gorgeous as I set it to be. Now to be clear. The CMX-2 is NOT a Surge Protector. It is, apparently, an awesome line filter. Most line filters filter noise from the Hot wire to the return wire or the earth ground. Emotiva makes it clear that they filter both the hot and the return. What makes the CMX-2 different from the CMX-6 is that the CMX-2 has circuitry that insures that the return is at earth ground potential and that the hot is centered in relation to it. I find it interesting that most equipment manufactures build some amount of line filtering into their product and then have you supply the surge protection and any additional filtering "if required". Emotiva on the other hand does the opposite. They say that they build surge protection into their product and let you supply line filtering "if required". Let me say that from my experience, you can't get anywhere near the potential performance their products are capable of. Not without the required amount of line filtering your personal setup may require. My personal recommendation is that one of the CMX's is a required item for your Emotiva equipment. Unless you have sufficient line filtering from other sources. Which I thought I did, but I was wrong. So what about that original harshness problem? Is it totally gone still, or even less noticable? I'm just wondering that for $100 and a 30 day MBG, it might be worth me buying one and trying it out. Although I really need to test that Belkin PF60 I have first I think. Thanks for your post.
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 20, 2012 8:31:16 GMT -5
What makes the CMX-2 different from the CMX-6 is that the CMX-2 has circuitry that insures that the return is at earth ground potential and that the hot is centered in relation to it. I was originally under the impression that the only difference between these 2 units was 2 plugs vs 6. So are you saying this is not the case? That filtering wise, the CMX-2 is better? Where did you learn this information from? Thanks for your input. Cheers --- Bonzo ;D UPDATE:Forget my question. I went searching myself and found the answer. Just pulled the trigger on a CMX-2 while it was still on sale. That way I can do a full comparison between it, the Belkin PF60 and my Monster. We'll see which one sounds better. If the CMX-2 looses, I'll just return it. Also wondering, I wonder what would happen if I plugged the CMX-2 into the wall, then plugged the Belkin into the CMX-2? According to another post here, Emotiva actually recommends doing the same with their CMX-6. Any thoughts?
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Post by repeetavx on Jul 20, 2012 11:22:50 GMT -5
Hi Bonzo, The original harshness problem was taken care of by plugging the XPA-2 into the Tice surge protector and line conditioner. When I unplugged the XPA-2 from the Tice and into the CMX-2 the harshness is still gone but I got a different frequency response curve (more bass) and a lot of added detail. Each instrument seems to have more texture and depth in the sound stage. A short but detailed discussion of the CMX-2 and CMX-6 is half way through this podcast: emotiva.com/podcasts/3-05-12/podcast.mp3 Yes, I believe that because the CMX products are not current limiting, you should plug any other types of power conditioning into a CMX-2. Including the CMX-6.
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 20, 2012 11:50:14 GMT -5
Hi Bonzo, The original harshness problem was taken care of by plugging the XPA-2 into the Tice surge protector and line conditioner. When I unplugged the XPA-2 from the Tice and into the CMX-2 the harshness is still gone but I got a different frequency response curve (more bass) and a lot of added detail. Each instrument seems to have more texture and depth in the sound stage. A short but detailed discussion of the CMX-2 and CMX-6 is half way through this podcast: emotiva.com/podcasts/3-05-12/podcast.mp3 Yes, I believe that because the CMX products are not current limiting, you should plug any other types of power conditioning into a CMX-2. Including the CMX-6. Thanks for the explanation. Well, I'm going to have lots of options to try out, and see which works best. I already KNOW I need some sort of filtration at my house, so for the price/return policy it's easily worth it to try out the CMX-2 for sure. I probably won't see the bass changes you did since my speakers have built in subs with their own crossover, amp and leveling adjustments. Just like I didn't see any huge difference in bass changing over to the XPA-2. It's really only driving mids and tweeters. But I'm curious to try the CMX-2 and see what it does.
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