|
Post by garbulky on Dec 9, 2018 2:34:17 GMT -5
What we are doing since we can't hear the voice clearly is that we are artificially compressing the dynamics to make the voice louder or the loud sounds softer to make the voice clearer... Yes and no. IF the disc has a pre-mixed two channel audio track, then it's reasonable to assume that the engineer who mixed that track (knowing that it would NOT be used with a center-channel dialogue speaker) has ALREADY compensated to make sure the "phantom center channel" is intelligible. But if multi-channel must be remixed to two-channel on the consumer's end, then yes - the application of compression, via so-called "night mode," would achieve the same thing. The bigger barrier to intelligibility is room acoustics. The reason this issue arises in movies and not music is due to the dynamics of a movie soundtrack. Some of those Atmos probably have a greater Dynamic range built in than the run of the mill soundtracks causing you greater issues. These don't really change noticeably with the 2 channel version. A 2 channel track has the surround speakers mixed in along with the LFE channel. But it's not meant to increase dialogue intelligibility AFAIK. If they increased dialogue intelligibility they would be purposely crushing the dynamics in the movie soundtrack.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 9, 2018 7:45:10 GMT -5
But the room acoustics are a constant regardless of whether you're hearing 2.0 - 5.1 - 7.1 - 11.1 - etc.
And I still think I disagree - Raising the center channel volume in a down-mix doesn't affect the overall dynamics (unless the softest sounds in the entire soundtrack were specific to the center channel). And since the rear surrounds and height speakers probably spend the majority of the movie at ZERO volume, then the likelihood of the center channel being the softest seems HIGHLY unlikely.
The only critical question is whether or not the two-channel soundtrack on the movie disc is a simple mix down of all available channels (exactly the same as what I'd get if my Oppo did the mix down) or whether the stereo soundtrack was edited by the studio to slightly favor the center channel. You contend not - I contend so. And since the studios don't say, we may never know.
But I agree that reducing the dynamic range should improve dialogue regardless.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 9, 2018 8:52:15 GMT -5
Current layout: SUGGESTIONS?
|
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,235
|
Post by novisnick on Dec 9, 2018 12:02:00 GMT -5
Current layout: SUGGESTIONS? 👍 Nothing to add.
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Dec 9, 2018 20:43:29 GMT -5
Current layout: SUGGESTIONS? So you are only listening to subwoofers??? 🤣 Interesting. I'm not big on your diagraming skills, but it seems to make sense.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 9, 2018 20:53:48 GMT -5
Crude, but effective. Speakers TBD
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 10, 2018 5:36:29 GMT -5
Spent about an hour last night routing XLR cables on the back of the rack. Today, I'll tackle the AC cords (a much more difficult chore). I'm still thinking that to minimize wire lengths, the CMX-6 should be mounted somewhere around the middle of the vertical rack. My options seem to be to mount the strip on the top or bottom of one of the shelves or else to attach a vertical section of 2x4 to a shelf, and mount the CMX facing the rear of the rack. The latter offers the best access, but how often will such access be needed? Once the wires are in place for the "keeper-components," the only other gear to be plugged in will be review stuff. To have sufficient sockets, many of the lower-current components will need to be attached via splitters. Of course, I could just buy another power strip? The components already on the rack will require seven outlets, and I'd like to have at least another two for visiting gear. It might be time to buy another CMX-6 or similar for the low-current items? Whom, other than Emotiva, makes good power conditioners? The (upstream) CMX-6 will take care of surge-suppression, so I'm mostly interested in filtering & smoothing on the downstream device. I may be looking at something like this: or if I want to shoot the moon: Boom
|
|
|
Post by ehmokey on Dec 10, 2018 19:23:24 GMT -5
Hi Boom. I have owned my HTS 1600 it since 2003 and haven't had any issues with it and most importantly it does not add nor subtract anything to the sound (that I can perceive) which for me is key. I do not listen crazy loud (70 spl) at most, so I have plenty of power for my XPA-1Ls Percy
|
|
|
Post by Cogito on Dec 10, 2018 19:52:33 GMT -5
Spent about an hour last night routing XLR cables on the back of the rack. Today, I'll tackle the AC cords (a much more difficult chore). I'm still thinking that to minimize wire lengths, the CMX-6 should be mounted somewhere around the middle of the vertical rack. My options seem to be to mount the strip on the top or bottom of one of the shelves or else to attach a vertical section of 2x4 to a shelf, and mount the CMX facing the rear of the rack. The latter offers the best access, but how often will such access be needed? Once the wires are in place for the "keeper-components," the only other gear to be plugged in will be review stuff. To have sufficient sockets, many of the lower-current components will need to be attached via splitters. Of course, I could just buy another power strip? The components already on the rack will require seven outlets, and I'd like to have at least another two for visiting gear. It might be time to buy another CMX-6 or similar for the low-current items? Whom, other than Emotiva, makes good power conditioners? The (upstream) CMX-6 will take care of surge-suppression, so I'm mostly interested in filtering & smoothing on the downstream device. I may be looking at something like this: or if I want to shoot the moon: Boom I'd suggest APC's G5BLK. 9 outlets total. 1 switched with 5 switched with sequential delay, 3 always on (1 one front panel). Monitors voltage, amperage and protects from under/over voltage. I love mine.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 11, 2018 3:11:21 GMT -5
I decided to split the AC duties between my existing Emotiva CMX-6 (audio equipment stand) and a Monoprice suppressor/conditioner (TV, cable box, Airport Express, and an Ethernet switch). The latter is 3 or 4 feet from the former.
For low-power equipment (the Microrendu, Oppo, Stealth DC-1 DAC, etc), I'm using three one-to-two-AC-pigtail-splitters from the power strip. Therefore, I have a total of nine sockets available rather than the native six. All the power cords are bundled on the opposite side of the rack from the signal cables.
The final component for the vertical equipment stand (the JL crossover) is due to arrive tomorrow (Wednesday). From there, I need to figure how to manage the unbalanced subwoofer interconnects and the (unequal length) speaker wires. Subwoofer dial-in to follow.*
After that, I'm leaving well-enough alone!
Boom
*There will be some compromises in this. Steep filtering can induce ringing, yet shallow roll-off will leave the satellite speakers vulnerable to any DSP applied to the (sealed) subwoofers to improve their "sub-sonic" performance. For example, should I opt to apply a +3 db boost at 20 Hz, and use but a 6dB/octave roll-off for the satellites starting at 80 Hz, the satellite speakers will see a signal down only 9 dB @ 20 Hz. Not optimal for ported speakers...
Should I opt instead for a 12dB slope, and with the same 20Hz boost and the same 80 Hz. crossover point, the satellites' signal would be down 21 dB @ 20 Hz. A much better option for avoiding intermodulation distortion and uncontrolled satellite woofer excursion, although not as good as the gentler slope for phase. In this circumstance, the subs would need to be wired out-of-phase with the satellites for the smoothest transition at the 80 Hz. crossover point.
An 18dB slope on the filtering would provide a -33 dB signal @ 20 Hz. to the satellites, and be in phase with the subs. But this steep a slope is more likely to cause some ringing.
So the 12dB option is probably the best compromise, IMHO. Bombs away!
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 11, 2018 15:26:28 GMT -5
A generous Lounger was kind enough to loan me some fire-hose-sized Pangea AC cables. I'd speculate that with XPA-1s run in Class-A mode, these might make a difference. But with my current-sipping, cool-running Class-D amplifiers, they were not an audible winner.
The same gentleman loaned me his Schiit Eitr to try with the MicroRendu. And it did make a positive difference. Transients were more vivid with the Eitr than without. But my Oppo has a coaxial digital output also, and when streaming through the Oppo to that coax output (not using the Oppo's DAC), the improvement is much the same.
A second gentleman of the Lounge sent me a USB galvanic isolator to try. It's hooked up but not yet auditioned. Tonight??
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Dec 11, 2018 18:10:07 GMT -5
A generous Lounger was kind enough to loan me some fire-hose-sized Pangea AC cables. I'd speculate that with XPA-1s run in Class-A mode, these might make a difference. But with my current-sipping, cool-running Class-D amplifiers, they were not an audible winner. The same gentleman loaned me his Schiit Eitr to try with the MicroRendu. And it did make a positive difference. Transients were more vivid with the Eitr than without. But my Oppo has a coaxial digital output also, and when streaming through the Oppo to that coax output (not using the Oppo's DAC), the improvement is much the same. A second gentleman of the Lounge sent me a USB galvanic isolator to try. It's hooked up but not yet auditioned. Tonight?? You should know that the DC-1 is galvanically isolated on its USB.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 11, 2018 22:31:22 GMT -5
And that would explain why I heard no difference...
|
|
|
Post by fbczar on Dec 11, 2018 22:40:03 GMT -5
A generous Lounger was kind enough to loan me some fire-hose-sized Pangea AC cables. I'd speculate that with XPA-1s run in Class-A mode, these might make a difference. But with my current-sipping, cool-running Class-D amplifiers, they were not an audible winner. The same gentleman loaned me his Schiit Eitr to try with the MicroRendu. And it did make a positive difference. Transients were more vivid with the Eitr than without. But my Oppo has a coaxial digital output also, and when streaming through the Oppo to that coax output (not using the Oppo's DAC), the improvement is much the same. A second gentleman of the Lounge sent me a USB galvanic isolator to try. It's hooked up but not yet auditioned. Tonight?? Now you need to compare the microRendu/ EITR combo to the UltraRendu by itself.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 11, 2018 22:43:54 GMT -5
The USB isolator made no audible difference that I could tell. With other DACs, it might make a difference, but with my DC-1, not. I determined this prior to garbulky pointing out that the DC-1 already has a galvanically isolated USB port.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 12, 2018 11:18:11 GMT -5
Now you need to compare the microRendu/ EITR combo to the UltraRendu by itself. Well - This could be tough... I don't have an Ultrarendu to try, and I'm suspecting that any differences I heard between the MicroRendu with and without the Eitr were more from the coaxial interface than from anything else. My Oppo UDP-205 is also a Roon endpoint, and it has a coaxial digital output (no DACs in the chain). I've noticed that the simple use of the coaxial DAC input rather than the USB one makes almost (near but no cigar) the difference that the MicroRendu by itself makes. In other words, I can easily and remotely switch from the MicroRendu USB input and the Oppo coaxial input on the DAC. The Microrendu is more spacious sounding, but the Oppo coaxial is more tonally accurate. You pays your money, you takes your choice. Were I minded to try something else, it would probably be the SOtM rather than the UltraRendu, but time will tell. Boom
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 13, 2018 11:47:30 GMT -5
Isn't it interesting how if you agree with the Lounge "group-think" on a specific topic, you're liked, quoted, and referred to again and again. But should any opinion vary from the "Lounge orthodoxy" the post immediately gets quoted multiple times by a wide variety of stalwarts telling you how wrong you are and eventually cursing you.
Different websites seem to have their own subcultures that are NEVER to be dismissed or even questioned. Some sites just love a particular brand of speakers to the disdain of all others, for example. And often, an influential "cult" within the subculture of the website can shift the entire focus of the site.
Lately the "streamer-cabal" has hijacked the Emotiva Lounge (to a large extent) and anyone who is skeptical, but hasn't heard the devices that are being championed is disdained and "shouted down." Even such a technical luminary as Mr. Keith Levkof is dismissed as ignorant in the face of the latest cult.
And next year, it will probably be a different tweak "discovery" that the Lounge luminaries will be touting.
Want proof? Try to post on this Lounge about how a specific interconnect, speaker wire, or power cord made a change in your system. You'll instantly be told (repeatedly) that it's technically impossible, and that you're a victim of expectation bias or some other malaise. If you try to tell the dismissers that they should try it for themselves, you'll be further ridiculed.
Yet this is VERY similar to what's happened (in an affirmative rather than a dismissive standpoint) for the Rendu and SOtM devices. They change the sound for the better, period. Don't disagree. If you don't think so, then you're wrong. If you haven't heard one, then you can have no opinion.
Yet there are MANY reasons why consumers may have no interest in these devices:
Don't stream over an Ethernet network and all connections are direct Don't like USB interface for whatever reason Don't use Roon or the other "proprietary" protocols, but am limited to Plug-And-Play DLNA (that has multiple negative issues of its own) Can't afford the entry fee to use one of these devices The money that such a device would cost would be much better spent on (take your pick) - better speakers/components/software or room treatments Etc.
And yes, I DO understand that having no interest is different from being skeptical. But I'm trying to step back and look at the situation from a broader perspective. And I just find it interesting...
Boomzilla
|
|
|
Post by brubacca on Dec 13, 2018 18:20:28 GMT -5
Boom,
I can only speak for myself as a relatively early adopter. In my first review in 2016 I begged several people including you to try this amazing device or one like it. So for over two years the people who liked these devices were villified. Many many many times I was told any PC or Rapsberry Pi was good enough when I had experienced different.
With this thread I've just gotten to the point that I'm sick of the same old arguments against a device that people haven't heard. (Why I said if you haven't heard one you really have no opinion.) Probably been too blunt about it, but I really think that many here could benefit from this or these devices.(really I'm not making a dime off of this endorsement).
Its one thing to say you don't want to try one for x, y or z reason. But I'm basically sick of being told that my experience can't be valid.
Please understand also that I get this is just for fun. I'm not yelling at the dogs (don't actually have any), and everything I say here is meant within the confines of civilized discourse on the forum. (Although sometimes my bluntness doesn't come across well without hearing my tone or seeing my body language)
Just felt I had to explain myself and apologies if I offended anyone.
Edited inappropriate content...
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Dec 13, 2018 19:41:06 GMT -5
I'd spent 30 minutes composing a reply, and then my ISP gave me a 404 and I lost it all.
|
|
|
Post by brubacca on Dec 13, 2018 19:56:36 GMT -5
I'd spent 30 minutes composing a reply, and then my ISP gave me a 404 and I lost it all. Sorry. I think you know me. I'll gladly delete my last post if you like. I am really not trying to offend anyone just saying where I am.
|
|