DYohn
Emo VIPs
Posts: 18,357
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Post by DYohn on Feb 17, 2014 11:15:20 GMT -5
SPL is a function of your volume control.
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Post by RightinLA on Feb 17, 2014 11:29:28 GMT -5
My wife's ears are more delicate than mine. Her ears hurt at high SPLs, and particularly when the frequencies are low. She sticks her fingers in her ears when we're at a traffic light and a "boom box car" is proximate. She also wears ear plugs when we go to the theater. She doesn't like subwoofers for that reason. On "normal" music where there are no really, really low frequencies, the sub doesn't bother her too much. But when there are any extremely low frequencies, she leaves the room & shuts the door. Fortunately for me, she's willing to tolerate the sub provided I don't play it too loudly. I can live with that, so it works out fine. When we have company that wants the boom, she allows me to turn it up without complaint. I'm lucky to have her! Unless I have SEVERE standing wave problems, I'm thinking that a single sub will do. We'll see... The advantage of dual or multiple subs should not be louder bass, but smoother bass that also doesn't put a strain on the amps in the subs because each has to contribute a lower SPL. If your room truly has the issues you've mentioned in the past, then perhaps multiple subs would overcome those issues. Personally I think some people get carried away with bass and just like it to "impress" by shaking the house but then that's not balanced and also not natural or realistic - same as those morons whose cars (and brains) are falling apart/have fallen apart because they have the bass turned up so high. So it wouldn't necessarily be to achieve a higher SPL but to achieve a better sounding system. If you are happy with the sound now then I would say just use the one sub. BUT you will never know what sort of improvement two subs would make unless you try it. And you know you like trying things so much that you won't be able to resist. And really, the SPL should not be louder with two subs, but the bass should be smoother and better distributed, which might even make it more acceptable for your wife. Excellent point, More subs do provide a smoother bass and the improved sensation of non-directional deep bass. In an home theater it is an excellent experience.
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Post by pop on Feb 17, 2014 11:32:19 GMT -5
The advantage of dual or multiple subs should not be louder bass, but smoother bass that also doesn't put a strain on the amps in the subs because each has to contribute a lower SPL. If your room truly has the issues you've mentioned in the past, then perhaps multiple subs would overcome those issues. Personally I think some people get carried away with bass and just like it to "impress" by shaking the house but then that's not balanced and also not natural or realistic - same as those morons whose cars (and brains) are falling apart/have fallen apart because they have the bass turned up so high. So it wouldn't necessarily be to achieve a higher SPL but to achieve a better sounding system. If you are happy with the sound now then I would say just use the one sub. BUT you will never know what sort of improvement two subs would make unless you try it. And you know you like trying things so much that you won't be able to resist. And really, the SPL should not be louder with two subs, but the bass should be smoother and better distributed, which might even make it more acceptable for your wife. Excellent point, More subs do provide a smoother bass and the improved sensation of non-directional deep bass. In an home theater it is an excellent experience. This is why I want 2 more now.... The bug has bit. I am afraid I will end up like n8dog and own 48 subs.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 11:34:11 GMT -5
Hi monkumonku -
I agree with you, point for point. Good comments, all. The fact is that now, with some ATS pads installed in the room, the bass is pretty smooth as is. I'm waiting for an in-depth analysis from ATS to see what (if anything) they recommend in addition to my current treatments. If I'm in any way dissatisfied after following the ATS recommendations, then yes, a second sub may be on my list. If nothing else, I could use them (as Chuck Elliott does) for speaker stands.
Until I get the room treatment finished, though, I'll hold off on the second sub until I hear the results of the treatment.
Thanks - Boom
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Post by RightinLA on Feb 17, 2014 11:38:08 GMT -5
The bug has bit. I am afraid I will end up like n8dog and own 48 subs. I hear you, I'm only about half way there with about twenty or so subs not including the ones built-in into the LSI25's or Def Tech towers I own. Fortunately I haven't gone for the big tube subs that take a small army to move. I can at least lift all of mine (one at a time) if need be.
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Post by pop on Feb 17, 2014 11:39:31 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 11:46:02 GMT -5
And I received a very nice unsolicited compliment from Mr. Tom Vodhanel of Powersound Audio concerning my setup and hum questions:
"Well, I must say you are one of the most informed customers I've ever dealt with regarding these sorts of issues. It is obvious you are very well versed in audio setup and trouble shooting! It isn't unusual for me to spend many emails walking someone though all of the possible troubleshooting paths when dealing with gain and ground loop issues. So, allow me to thank you very much for taking the incentive here!"
Apparently, most of his customers are not from the Emotiva Lounge!
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Post by garbulky on Feb 17, 2014 12:17:43 GMT -5
I feel bad for Mr Vodhanel having to wearily tell them to try to unplug the cable box and try, to turn off the dimmer etc.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 12:49:57 GMT -5
I find that I fetch my best "cures" for such problems via Google. There's always a plethora of ideas (only some of which are stupid) to try. It goes beyond audio too. Yesterday, I googled how to rehang the door on our Whirlpool oven; today, I need to find out how to disassemble and fix my wife's mixer.
A "FAQ checklist" might be helpful for solving common audio problems (ground loops, gain issues, etc.).
As to repetition of information via tech support - yeah - I feel sorry for the providers too. It must get old to be asked for the 10,000th time "Why isn't my product making any sound?" And every time, you've got to respond "Is it plugged in?" etc.
True story: One of my friends was an auto mechanic back in the day, working in a shop that specialized in VWs. This was the day when all VWs were air cooled engines. An elderly lady comes by saying her bug isn't running too well; my friend does a tune-up & calls her to pick it up. Lady comes in, picks up the car, and comes right back - "It's still running badly." My friend drives the car - works fine. So he comes back, asks the lady to drive & show him what's wrong. She gets in the car, pulls out the choke knob, hangs her purse on it, and starts the car...
Ya never know...
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Post by garbulky on Feb 17, 2014 12:53:59 GMT -5
True story: My friend stuck his hand in the a microwave which had a door that was completely missing. He said it felt funny. Same friend used that microwave (with a missing door) for years.
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Post by melm on Feb 17, 2014 12:59:44 GMT -5
I worked in a high end store in my college days. Guy bought a Marantz receiver, came back an hour later and said it didn't work. No sound, no lights, no nothing. Took it back to the shop. It was fine. Told him to check his wiring etc.
He came back an hour later with the same problem. Took him back into the shop and plugged it in. It was fine. I asked him to show me how he set it up. He took the power cord and plugged it directly into the AC outlet on the back of his Marantz. Just a loop, with no AC anywhere in the chain. Incredible. He said "why not use the extra outlet they provide rather than run a long extension cord?" I was dumbfounded. This guy was an M.D. Condolences to his patients.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 13:02:47 GMT -5
The M.D. was probably a genius at medicine, but a moron at electricity. Expertise in one area doesn't imply even minimal competence in other areas. That's why I cringe when I see "experts" in the media whose expertise has nothing to do with the subject they're expounding on.
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,921
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Post by hemster on Feb 17, 2014 14:59:50 GMT -5
Oooh, I've got one to share...
Back in the early days of PCs I was in tech support and got a call from a lady who claimed her computer didn't work. At her desk I found the mouse on the floor. She proceeded to show me how she was "working" the computer... she was stepping on the mouse with her foot and when I pointed that out she matter-of-factly said: "Oh, I thought that was the foot pedal!". Her logic was that she needed both hands to type so...
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 17, 2014 15:08:29 GMT -5
Glad you are liking the 2.1 set for stereo music, I've had mine that way for decades, despite much derision from hifi buddies, especially early on. My rule of thumb for the sub woofer amp has always been to have its wattage 3 to 4 times the FL and FR amp wattage. Since I added the XPA-5 (200 watts per channel) a couple of years ago I've been running at double with a 400 watt sub amp. I'm still doing that with an XPA-100 as a sub amp. This is with main speakers in the 92 db to 96 db efficiency range. Also worth considering, if you are using XLR (balanced) connections from the Oppo to the XPR-2 you are +6db over an RCA connection (unbalanced) to the sub amp. Your situation is that you have 600 watts per channel from the XPR-2 for the FL and FR and 500 watts from the sub amp. Personally whilst I don't think the 98 db efficiency main speakers are helping, your real problem may well be the amps' power differential being the inverse of what works for me (and that many recommend). My view would be that a second XV15 would raise the sub wattage (1000 watts) versus main speaker wattage (600 watts) closer to that recommended (ie; almost double) . In a typical room (even in Boomzilla's larger than average room) you are not going to be running any where near that kind of wattage for the FL and FR, however I do recommend dual or even four subwoofers for the basic reasons given. I've had very good success with using multiple subs. Given Boomzilla's main audio room, I believe he will have great success with multiple subs. It would really make the moniker "Boomzilla" a reality! I wasn't suggesting that Boom uses all the watts, just that given a reasonable listening level, say 6 watts from each of his front pair, 12 watts in total, his sub is only using 5 watts. This is inverse to the additional power required for low frequency reproduction. My experience has been that more wattage to a sub woofer, in fact any speaker, smooths it out, takes control, fastens the response and lessens the effort required from the amp. Adding a second sub or doubling the power amps output would equally address the wattage deficiency ie; 12 watts and 10 watts. Obviously this wouldn't be so important if he had variable volume (hence wattage) balance between the mains and the sub, but he doesn't, so amp power matching is important. Cheers Gary
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 15:38:10 GMT -5
Oooh, I've got one to share... Back in the early days of PCs I was in tech support and got a call from a lady who claimed her computer didn't work. At her desk I found the mouse on the floor. She proceeded to show me how she was "working" the computer... she was stepping on the mouse with her foot and when I pointed that out she matter-of-factly said: "Oh, I thought that was the foot pedal!". Her logic was that she needed both hands to type so... And I: The personnel manager calls me to her office & says "My computer has slowed to a crawl. How do we fix it?" Glancing at her screen I see a dozen unnecessary programs are running in the background so I say, "First, we need to get all this junk off your desktop screen." She says OK & turns off the computer's power button.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 15:40:14 GMT -5
I wasn't suggesting that Boom uses all the watts, just that given a reasonable listening level, say 6 watts from each of his front pair, 12 watts in total, his sub is only using 5 watts. This is inverse to the additional power required for low frequency reproduction. My experience has been that more wattage to a sub woofer, in fact any speaker, smooths it out, takes control, fastens the response and lessens the effort required from the amp. Adding a second sub or doubling the power amps output would equally address the wattage deficiency ie; 12 watts and 10 watts. Obviously this wouldn't be so important if he had variable volume (hence wattage) balance between the mains and the sub, but he doesn't, so amp power matching is important. Cheers Gary I understood you perfectly, Gary - THANKS again for the sensible reply! Boomzilla
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2014 8:40:25 GMT -5
Well, "a picture's worth a thousand..." so here's the sub in situ: The "wart" on top of the sub is the wireless transmitter for the Epson projector. The gap in the right hand stand is for the new XSP-1 (when it arrives).
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Post by mshump on Feb 18, 2014 10:03:40 GMT -5
Boom, Your set-up is very neat and clean !! Very nice !!
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Post by cwmcobra on Feb 18, 2014 10:54:33 GMT -5
I agree....very clean look. I have 4 Klipsch Heresys, so I assume that the look of the Def-Techs in your room is more aesthetically pleasing than the Heresys. Also, my first impression upon seeing the picture was to think of the "sleeper" car analogy. In other words, a very sharp and clean looking vehicle, but until you open the hood (in this case check out the system components) you have no idea of the power it has! I'm enjoying your journey, Boom. Thanks for keeping us in the loop!
Cheers!
Chuck
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2014 12:26:23 GMT -5
Although the sub LOOKS spiffy there, I don't think that I've yet found the best location for it. I'm going to try Garbulky's recommendation of sticking it in a corner & see what happens. If I'm not happy with that, then next time Gar visits, I'll put the sub at the listener's seat position and make GAR do the "subwoofer crawl" to see what the best location is. His ears are better than mine, and his knees younger. If I bribe him with some Trader Joe's Spiced Cider, I think he'll do it!
Although those DefTechs throw a real "window of sound" into the recordings, they're just NOT as dynamic as the Heresys. I've got some KEF Q300s on the way that I also want to try.
And while I'm rambling, let me expound once again on the virtues of ADHESIVE VELCRO STRIPS!
I use these "peel-and-stick" strips for a variety of audio things:
The power control strip is stuck to the equipment rack with a small patch of Velcro The "ethernet over AC" modem is stuck to the underside of an equipment rack shelf with a small patch of Velcro The power supply wart for the laptop is stuck to the underside of an equipment rack shelf with a small patch of Velcro The external USB HDD with my music files is stuck to the equipment rack shelf with Velcro - This not only keeps it from falling off but also keeps the drive vibration from causing background noise. The speakers are stuck to their stands with Velcro - Even the Klipsch Heresys can't be knocked off their stands!
The Velcro forms a tighter bond with vibration, so as the speakers play, they "lock in" to the stands. Anyone who has stand-mounted speakers should try Velcro - REALLY!
Buy the "industrial strength" stuff and cover the entire top of the stand with "loop" Velcro. Then put "felt" Velcro across the bottom of any and all speakers that you might want to put on the stands. Want to change speakers? Rip the old speakers off and put the new ones in place. They lock instantly, and then become much tighter in the first 10 minutes of playing time. With HEAVY stands, I can pick up the speakers & the stands will remain stuck even when held out at a 90 degree angle! If you eventually want to remove the Velcro from the speakers, just peel it off the bottom. Stick the Velcro onto some wax paper, and you can re-use it with the next speakers you get. If any adhesive sticks to the speakers (I haven't had any do so yet), it can easily be removed with a paper towel and some lighter fluid.
Cheers - Boomzilla
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