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Post by Dan Laufman on Feb 14, 2014 18:42:14 GMT -5
Hi all,
Before the forum goes on overdrive about HDMI 2.0, I'd like to take a moment to clarify our position on the HDMI specifications for the XMC-1.
When we changed to the new high performance, 4k compatable ADV7625 HDMI mux's, we believed that we could legitimately claim HDMI 2.0 capability. However, after carefully reviewing the final specifications of the parts, and just as importantly deciphering what can and can not legitimately be called HDMI 2.0, we believe it is technically correct and responsible to state that the XMC-1 is HDMI v1.4b compliant. Certain aspects of its performance could allow us to claim 2.0 compliance, but we felt it would be misleading, as we do not fully support all 2.0 operating states and bandwidths. Being "2.0 ready" was not adequate.
Now, having said this, it does mean that the XMC-1 is capable of supporting current 4k and 3D content. It's 3GHz video bandwidth is more than adequate and is quite solid.
Please understand that Ultra HD, or 4k or whatever you want to call it today is in a state of development and flux. There are going to be many, many disappointed early adopters of "4k". Also, there are so many performance levels and technical options related to 4k video and audio over HDMI 2.0, it's hard to know what will end up being adopted as the winning, marketable, and final version of the 4k display and source component wars. What I do know for a fact, it that 4k video delivery is not locked down to any one, well defined standard. Until that day, it's buyer beware.
The great thing about the XMC-1 is that its design and architecture are completely modular. If and when it becomes necessary to support the next generation of 4k hardware and source components we'll be ready to take you to the next level, easily and affordably. In the meantime you're set to go with the latest and greatest real world solution.
Cheers,
Big Dan
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Post by hifiaudio2 on Feb 14, 2014 19:04:51 GMT -5
Thanks Dan. Do you know if it passes HDCP 2.2?
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Post by teklock on Feb 14, 2014 19:06:33 GMT -5
Thanks Dan! Can you tell us what was the difference between the mux that was scheduled to be delivered this month and this new one?
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Post by hifiaudio2 on Feb 14, 2014 19:11:21 GMT -5
Just looked through the chipset datasheet. Not sure I see much that would have ever indicated to me that it was something to call HDMI 2.0.
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Post by teklock on Feb 14, 2014 19:13:24 GMT -5
Just looked through the chipset datasheet. Not sure I see much that would have ever indicated to me that it was something to call HDMI 2.0. You know the previous model number chipset? |
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Post by petew on Feb 14, 2014 19:29:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the update Dan. Having a recent HDMI chip is great, even though it may not do full spec HDMI 2.0 (whatever that finally ends up meaning).
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 14, 2014 21:32:09 GMT -5
I recall Lonnie referring to the 8000 series, if so maybe it was ADV8003 that is HDMI 2.0. My guess is analog devices jacked up the price of their 2.0 chipset and Emotiva decided on the much cheaper ADV7625. Perhaps it was also a compatibility or integration factor as well with the fact that leaving 2.0 out builds in an automatic upgrade path.
The fact that ADV7625 is 1.4b and due to this you can't call it 2.0 is just plain ridiculous. Lol. Come on..you guys are way too smart to make mistakes like that, it's when the salesmanship comes into play does it sound silly with putting spins on things.
Granted this means nothing to me either way since I'm getting the XMC-1 right away, but let's keep it honest here. That's the Emotiva brand I know and love.
Enjoy a nice 3 days weekend to those off on president's day.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2014 21:50:07 GMT -5
The modular portion of the XMC-1 was a great addition. Being able to upgrade when the time comes, will be a wonderful thing. As of right now, there isnn't much content but if the 4K blu players are in fact ready by xmas, let the games begin!
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Post by socketman on Feb 14, 2014 22:19:45 GMT -5
Honestly at the rate technology moves, if we keep wanting the latest and greatest of everything we are never going to see this thing materialize. For the vast majority of us , hdmi 2.0 is not necessary , they just need to get this thing done. We can all choose to upgrade down the road when the time comes thankfully. I am not getting any younger here  . Richard |
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Post by DYohn on Feb 14, 2014 22:43:45 GMT -5
You know, it's posts like this one from Big Dan that keeps me an Emotiva fan. No hype, no marketing, nothing hidden, just here it is and here's why. Thanks man. I don't need a new processor but now I may just buy one anyway.
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Post by hifiaudio2 on Feb 14, 2014 22:47:15 GMT -5
I recall Lonnie referring to the 8000 series, if so maybe it was ADV8003 that is HDMI 2.0. My guess is analog devices jacked up the price of their 2.0 chipset and Emotiva decided on the much cheaper ADV7625. Perhaps it was also a compatibility or integration factor as well with the fact that leaving 2.0 out builds in an automatic upgrade path. The fact that ADV7625 is 1.4b and due to this you can't call it 2.0 is just plain ridiculous. Lol. Come on..you guys are way too smart to make mistakes like that, it's when the salesmanship comes into play does it sound silly with putting spins on things. Granted this means nothing to me either way since I'm getting the XMC-1 right away, but let's keep it honest here. That's the Emotiva brand I know and love. Indeed. This late in the game some clear "spin" doesn't sit too well with me. I have honestly never been bothered by ANY of the delays. I would get it when I get it. But this kind of spin seems disingenuous. I don't like it at all. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 0:02:28 GMT -5
I recall Lonnie referring to the 8000 series, if so maybe it was ADV8003 that is HDMI 2.0. My guess is analog devices jacked up the price of their 2.0 chipset and Emotiva decided on the much cheaper ADV7625. Perhaps it was also a compatibility or integration factor as well with the fact that leaving 2.0 out builds in an automatic upgrade path. The fact that ADV7625 is 1.4b and due to this you can't call it 2.0 is just plain ridiculous. Lol. Come on..you guys are way too smart to make mistakes like that, it's when the salesmanship comes into play does it sound silly with putting spins on things. Granted this means nothing to me either way since I'm getting the XMC-1 right away, but let's keep it honest here. That's the Emotiva brand I know and love. Enjoy a nice 3 days weekend to those off on president's day. Nope they said ADV7000 series part. The ADV8003 is a Video signal processor with overlay not a crosspoint transceiver. How did you come up with that BS dude? It has a 300 MHz TDMS clock and the HDCP hashes/logic can be upgraded to HDCP 2.2 via firmware/microcode update if it doesn't already. There is nothing to worry about and the unit will be able to pass all current 4k standards from what I can tell. A lot of this revolves around the loss of the HDCP master key in 2010 and they want HDCP 2.2 to be totally secure and be forced upon all HDMI 4k links. Between 09 F9 and the HDCP master key release as well as the HDCP 2.1 pairing XOR encryption allowing transmitter to recover Km has totally WIGGED THEM OUT! HDMI 2.0 means full HDCP 2.2 and the people behind it have much LEGAL obligations to only certify/sticker devices that comply 100%. |
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Post by Dan Laufman on Feb 15, 2014 0:14:48 GMT -5
The problem is the source device at this point...
Lots of 4k displays with varying degrees of 4k'ness and essentially no sources... Unless you want to call the Sony HD drive a "player". It is NOT a legitimate source. It is a marketing tool, IMO.
The interface to the display is proprietary and can only be used on a companion Sony product. Great for the guy who wants to say he has 4k, but it is not commercially viable. We've got a way to go until we have a real standard and commercial availability of source components and media. No need to get hung up on 2.0, we've got bigger fish to fry!
Don't get me started on HDCP 2.2... Another battleground.
Us Emovite's can sit back and wait for the dust to settle and then we'll make the switch to whatever wins.
If you've got a 4 k display enjoy it and plan to wait a while for 4k sources and content that are meaningful.
Cheers,
big Dan
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Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 0:27:12 GMT -5
The problem is the source device at this point... Lots of 4k displays with varying degrees of 4k'ness and essentially no sources... Unless you want to call the Sony HD drive a "player". It is NOT a legitimate source. It is a marketing tool, IMO. The interface to the display is proprietary and can only be used on a companion Sony product. Great for the guy who wants to say he has 4k, but it is not commercially viable. We've got a way to go until we have a real standard and commercial availability of source components and media. No need to get hung up on 2.0, we've got bigger fish to fry! Don't get me started on HDCP 2.2... Another battleground. Us Emovite's can sit back and wait for the dust to settle and then we'll make the switch to whatever wins. If you've got a 4 k display enjoy it and plan to wait a while for 4k sources and content that are meaningful. Cheers, big Dan Hey as long as it has implemented cross point to DSP properly so I can watch one HDMI video source whilst listening to another HDMI source and passes 4:4:4 from my PC transport I'm happy. 300Mhz TDMS is good enough if you don't care about 3D. Interesting article worth a quick read Dan. www.display-central.com/free-news/display-daily/hdmi-2-0-waited-two-years/ |
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 15, 2014 0:31:36 GMT -5
Dan, a simple question: Does "Don't get me started..." mean that when it ships the HDCP will not be 2.2? Can you please provide a more precise answer to this question along with a clarification on the bandwidth and clock speed for the HDMI. Surely at this stage of the game you must have some easy yes or no answers based on the chip selection.
Thanks
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 15, 2014 0:33:42 GMT -5
I recall Lonnie referring to the 8000 series, if so maybe it was ADV8003 that is HDMI 2.0. My guess is analog devices jacked up the price of their 2.0 chipset and Emotiva decided on the much cheaper ADV7625. Perhaps it was also a compatibility or integration factor as well with the fact that leaving 2.0 out builds in an automatic upgrade path. The fact that ADV7625 is 1.4b and due to this you can't call it 2.0 is just plain ridiculous. Lol. Come on..you guys are way too smart to make mistakes like that, it's when the salesmanship comes into play does it sound silly with putting spins on things. Granted this means nothing to me either way since I'm getting the XMC-1 right away, but let's keep it honest here. That's the Emotiva brand I know and love. Enjoy a nice 3 days weekend to those off on president's day. Nope they said ADV7000 series part. The ADV8003 is a Video signal processor with overlay not a crosspoint transceiver. How did you come up with that BS dude? It has a 300 MHz TDMS clock and the HDCP hashes/logic can be upgraded to HDCP 2.2 via firmware/microcode update if it doesn't already. There is nothing to worry about and the unit will be able to pass all current 4k standards from what I can tell. A lot of this revolves around the loss of the HDCP master key in 2010 and they want HDCP 2.2 to be totally secure and be forced upon all HDMI 4k links. Between 09 F9 and the HDCP master key release as well as the HDCP 2.1 pairing XOR encryption allowing transmitter to recover Km has totally WIGGED THEM OUT! HDMI 2.0 means full HDCP 2.2 and the people behind it have much LEGAL obligations to only certify/sticker devices that comply 100%. Yeah I'm not worried. I have no idea what you are saying half the time anyway. Maybe they said 7000..the fact is they said 2.0...but it's a moot point. They are releasing with 1.4b and I'm fine with that. I was fine with the original specs using two of what's in my UMC-200. Can you mail me the secret decoder ring before your responses though? |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 15, 2014 0:38:36 GMT -5
Dan, a simple question: Does "Don't get me started..." mean that when it ships the HDCP will not be 2.2? Can you please provide a more precise answer to this question along with a clarification on the bandwidth and clock speed for the HDMI. Surely at this stage of the game you must have some easy yes or no answers based on the chip selection. Thanks Take a look at this and perhaps you'll understand why. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hdcp#Versions_HighlightsHDCP 2.x is a mess. HDMI 2.0 is like dual channel DVI in that it's basically two 300mhz TDMS channels working in parallel with HDCP 2.2 HDMI 1.4b is a single channel 300mhz TDMS channel with HDCP 1.8 It will send 4k video no problem BUT the set/sink or source might only allow 4k via an HDCP 2.2 link unfortunately due to "type 1" HDCP 2.2 flag. The 600mhz clock is only there for 3D and higher colour gamut video that is not being provided by BDUs anyway. |
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Post by PGT on Feb 15, 2014 0:40:15 GMT -5
will the XMC-1 have useful CEC features? I'm batting .000 on success with it from other brands. Its hard to believe in 2014 that there's still no accepted interoperability standard. - Sometimes the terseness of my reply can't be blamed on my phone.  |
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 15, 2014 0:48:34 GMT -5
My bad for not seeing Dan's mention of the bandwidth in his original post.
That said,there are some products out there with HDCP 2.2 and the CTS is now out there for testing. Yes, it is complicated to be sure but in an otherwise state-of-the art processor on expects all systems to be up to date for almost $2k.
The faster speeds of 2.0 are needed for more than 1080/eye 3D. You also need them for 10- or 12-bit color or 4:4:2 or 4:4:4. That isn't so far off.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 15, 2014 0:56:14 GMT -5
The problem is the source device at this point... Lots of 4k displays with varying degrees of 4k'ness and essentially no sources... Unless you want to call the Sony HD drive a "player". It is NOT a legitimate source. It is a marketing tool, IMO. The interface to the display is proprietary and can only be used on a companion Sony product. Great for the guy who wants to say he has 4k, but it is not commercially viable. We've got a way to go until we have a real standard and commercial availability of source components and media. No need to get hung up on 2.0, we've got bigger fish to fry! Don't get me started on HDCP 2.2... Another battleground. Us Emovite's can sit back and wait for the dust to settle and then we'll make the switch to whatever wins. If you've got a 4 k display enjoy it and plan to wait a while for 4k sources and content that are meaningful. Cheers, big Dan 2.0 was never an issue. Just the bait and switch . Although, it really was never a bait for me because I don't care about 2.0 on my 1080P TV. I do hope the XMC-1 won't be like the Theta Casanova. Great intentions but in the end was abandoned with no upgrades due to massive changes in standards. For instance what happens if 11.2 becomes the norm in 5 years? Keep it real homie...you already have us sold, you can take the sales hat off and just talk to us. At least me. |
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