Adding UPA amp to Denon 3806

[vonhess]

I have a Denon 3806 running as 5.1 which I am happy with for HT.  What I am looking for is an upgrade in sound quality for music.  If I were to add a upa 200 or upa 500 would there be any noticeable improvement in sound quality or would I need to go into the xpa line to notice an improvement?   I am also debating the following- should I just go with a 2 channel amp to run the fronts and run the rears with the Denon or go with a 5 channel to run everything?  Seems a shame to have the wattage from the Denon and not use it but there is not a huge price difference in price from the 200 to the 500.  Not sure of the terminology but can you bridge the 500 to use as a 2 channel?   I also will be building a subwoofer soon, so there is that to throw into the mix. 

[twism]

I think if you are here on the forums you are looking for that little something extra...I would go with a nice UPA-500 or XPA-500, no other real reason than why not...

[deltadube]

Oct 31, 2014 10:53:22 GMT -5 vonhess said:

I have a Denon 3806 running as 5.1 which I am happy with for HT.  What I am looking for is an upgrade in sound quality for music.  If I were to add a upa 200 or upa 500 would there be any noticeable improvement in sound quality or would I need to go into the xpa line to notice an improvement?   I am also debating the following- should I just go with a 2 channel amp to run the fronts and run the rears with the Denon or go with a 5 channel to run everything?  Seems a shame to have the wattage from the Denon and not use it but there is not a huge price difference in price from the 200 to the 500.  Not sure of the terminology but can you bridge the 500 to use as a 2 channel?   I also will be building a subwoofer soon, so there is that to throw into the mix. 

if you want the best sound quality for 2 channel mono blocks xpa 1 and the xsp 1 pre pro.. sure an xpa 5 or 3 would be nice too for ht..!!

cheers

[repeetavx]

Judging from the price range of your options, money is a factor. The UPA-500 is not bridgeable. But for $25 more you can get a XPA-200. A UPA-200 or -500 will improve your sound, but for $25 more the XPA-200 will give you everything your looking for.

Beware, the sound quality improvement that any of these amps provide. They will start you down the road of "what ifs". I started out with a single XPA-2 and now vertical bi-amp with a pair of them.

Buy any of these amps and enjoy it. Quality equipment renders quality sound.

[ansat]

Oct 31, 2014 10:53:22 GMT -5 vonhess said:

I have a Denon 3806 running as 5.1 which I am happy with for HT.  What I am looking for is an upgrade in sound quality for music.  If I were to add a upa 200 or upa 500 would there be any noticeable improvement in sound quality or would I need to go into the xpa line to notice an improvement?   I am also debating the following- should I just go with a 2 channel amp to run the fronts and run the rears with the Denon or go with a 5 channel to run everything?  Seems a shame to have the wattage from the Denon and not use it but there is not a huge price difference in price from the 200 to the 500.  Not sure of the terminology but can you bridge the 500 to use as a 2 channel?   I also will be building a subwoofer soon, so there is that to throw into the mix. 

When I went to UPA-7 from my Denon 3808ci, what I noticed most was that I could increase the volume much higher where the audio still sounded good. This was the start of my journey into separates. Going to give a fair warning -- Once you start down this path, its hard to go back

[pedrocols]

I used a UPA-500 with my Pioneer 1121k and the UPA-500 was roughly 1.5 dbs louder than the Pioneer with two channels driven. The Pioneer is rated at 110 watts and the UPA-500 is rated at 85 watts(real watts). However, I didn't compare the two with all channels driven but I dare to say the UPA-500 would potentially more then 2 dbs louder with all channels driven. Two dbs might not seem like much but is to show how the Pioneer while rated higher, is not as loud as the 85 watts rated UPA-500. Nevertheless, that was my experience in my room with my speakers which were Paradigm Studio 100s v3 at the time.

[1960broookwood]

Sound quality or volume? Two entirely different things IMHO

[pedrocols]

Oct 31, 2014 14:31:44 GMT -5 1960broookwood said:

Sound quality or volume? Two entirely different things IMHO

Precisely! However, sound quality is subjective and volume is objectively measurable.

[garbulky]

The UPA-500 does close to the performance of the UPA-200 with two channels driven only. The unused power of the other channels goes towards the channels that are being driven.
There;s a pretty good chance you'll notice a difference.
BTW, you are not wasting those amp channels. When you buy say an XPA-5 then your next upgrade - which will EVENTUALLY HAPPEN....will suddenly go towards a standalone processor without amplification - which allows (hopefully) for better sound quality. You can now break away from AVR's, Not shabby.

[broncsrule21]

Using my UPA series amps is definitely an upgrade over the internal amps of my lower series Denon's amps. The Denon sounded thin at high volumes. No strain with the UPA-1s. Highly recommended!

[memotiva]

You may not get an upgrade in sound quality. The 3806 wasn't the lowest end Denon. It's rated at 120W per channel with 2 channels driven. That's roughly the same as what you get from an Emotiva. With all 7 channels driven, the UPA-700 would mop the floor with it in terms of power, but for 2 channels, it's probably on par with the UPA-200. There's no difference in sound quality of of amps operating in their linear power envelope, so you'd not get anything except maybe a placebo effect.

What speakers are you using? What is their sensitivity? If they're highly sensitive, it's unlikely that a higher end Emotiva amp would give you anything either. If they're lower sensitivity speakers, you could either change them to higher sensitivity speakers or add the amplification.

What sources are you listening to? Using better music to start with or better speakers might do a lot more than what you're planning here.

[vonhess]

Nov 9, 2014 14:18:42 GMT -5 memotiva said:

You may not get an upgrade in sound quality. The 3806 wasn't the lowest end Denon. It's rated at 120W per channel with 2 channels driven. That's roughly the same as what you get from an Emotiva. With all 7 channels driven, the UPA-700 would mop the floor with it in terms of power, but for 2 channels, it's probably on par with the UPA-200. There's no difference in sound quality of of amps operating in their linear power envelope, so you'd not get anything except maybe a placebo effect.

What speakers are you using? What is their sensitivity? If they're highly sensitive, it's unlikely that a higher end Emotiva amp would give you anything either. If they're lower sensitivity speakers, you could either change them to higher sensitivity speakers or add the amplification.

What sources are you listening to? Using better music to start with or better speakers might do a lot more than what you're planning here.

My fronts are mb quart qls 830.  From what I have heard, they are not very efficient: 87db.  Also from what I've heard they were very under-rated, under-marketed speakers for the price.  They are among the last that were made in Germany.  I guess MB Quart went through some ownership changes not long after these were made .  For the budget system that it is I have often thought that it sounds pretty damn good but aren't we all always looking for that little something extra?    I am in the midst of building a subwoofer that I will power with a separate amp for now.   My main source is just plain ol' red book cds.  I guess I will see how the sub improves the system and then go from there.

[Bonzo]

Nov 9, 2014 14:18:42 GMT -5 memotiva said:

You may not get an upgrade in sound quality. The 3806 wasn't the lowest end Denon. It's rated at 120W per channel with 2 channels driven. That's roughly the same as what you get from an Emotiva. With all 7 channels driven, the UPA-700 would mop the floor with it in terms of power, but for 2 channels, it's probably on par with the UPA-200. There's no difference in sound quality of of amps operating in their linear power envelope, so you'd not get anything except maybe a placebo effect.

What speakers are you using? What is their sensitivity? If they're highly sensitive, it's unlikely that a higher end Emotiva amp would give you anything either. If they're lower sensitivity speakers, you could either change them to higher sensitivity speakers or add the amplification.

What sources are you listening to? Using better music to start with or better speakers might do a lot more than what you're planning here.

I have to agree with you here. I added the XPA-2 and XPA-5 to my Denon AVR-3805 and got ZERO change in sound quality (or volume for that matter). BUT, my speakers have built in power for the bass, which allows them to have a higher sensitivity of 92 because all the amps are driving is the efficient mids and tweeters.

With speakers rated at 87 sensitivity and passive bass drivers requiring power, an Emotiva amp could quite possibly make a difference depending on listening preferences.

Although I'd just jump to an X series like I did because I don't think the UPA series will provide much more than what the Denon is already doing. But that REALLY depends on the speakers, the room, and the listening material.

2 cents added.

[cawgijoe]

Nov 10, 2014 17:05:54 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

Nov 9, 2014 14:18:42 GMT -5 memotiva said:

You may not get an upgrade in sound quality. The 3806 wasn't the lowest end Denon. It's rated at 120W per channel with 2 channels driven. That's roughly the same as what you get from an Emotiva. With all 7 channels driven, the UPA-700 would mop the floor with it in terms of power, but for 2 channels, it's probably on par with the UPA-200. There's no difference in sound quality of of amps operating in their linear power envelope, so you'd not get anything except maybe a placebo effect.

What speakers are you using? What is their sensitivity? If they're highly sensitive, it's unlikely that a higher end Emotiva amp would give you anything either. If they're lower sensitivity speakers, you could either change them to higher sensitivity speakers or add the amplification.

What sources are you listening to? Using better music to start with or better speakers might do a lot more than what you're planning here.

I have to agree with you here. I added the XPA-2 and XPA-5 to my Denon AVR-3805 and got ZERO change in sound quality (or volume for that matter). BUT, my speakers have built in power for the bass, which allows them to have a higher sensitivity of 92 because all the amps are driving is the efficient mids and tweeters.

With speakers rated at 87 sensitivity and passive bass drivers requiring power, an Emotiva amp could quite possibly make a difference depending on listening preferences.

Although I'd just jump to an X series like I did because I don't think the UPA series will provide much more than what the Denon is already doing. But that REALLY depends on the speakers, the room, and the listening material.

2 cents added.

It really depends on how efficient your speakers are and whether you are using your receiver for two channel or home theater multi-channel mode. Most receivers really lose power as you increase the number of channels driven.

I originally drove my Thiel CS1.6, Thiel SCS3 center channel and Mirage surrounds with a Pioneer Elite vsx-01 receiver. It worked, but the receiver got pretty hot and the sound just wasn't very dynamic. Adding an XPA-5 changed everything. The receiver was no longer hot and struggling to keep up and the sound quality was greatly improved.

The Thiels are efficient, but they present a 4ohm or less load to the amp. The Pioneer was not designed for it.

[vonhess]

Nov 10, 2014 18:55:04 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

Nov 10, 2014 17:05:54 GMT -5 Bonzo said:

I have to agree with you here. I added the XPA-2 and XPA-5 to my Denon AVR-3805 and got ZERO change in sound quality (or volume for that matter). BUT, my speakers have built in power for the bass, which allows them to have a higher sensitivity of 92 because all the amps are driving is the efficient mids and tweeters.

With speakers rated at 87 sensitivity and passive bass drivers requiring power, an Emotiva amp could quite possibly make a difference depending on listening preferences.

Although I'd just jump to an X series like I did because I don't think the UPA series will provide much more than what the Denon is already doing. But that REALLY depends on the speakers, the room, and the listening material.

2 cents added.

It really depends on how efficient your speakers are and whether you are using your receiver for two channel or home theater multi-channel mode. Most receivers really lose power as you increase the number of channels driven.

I originally drove my Thiel CS1.6, Thiel SCS3 center channel and Mirage surrounds with a Pioneer Elite vsx-01 receiver. It worked, but the receiver got pretty hot and the sound just wasn't very dynamic. Adding an XPA-5 changed everything. The receiver was no longer hot and struggling to keep up and the sound quality was greatly improved.

The Thiels are efficient, but they present a 4ohm or less load to the amp. The Pioneer was not designed for it.

My room is rather out of the ordinary and again I am surprised at how good the current system sounds.  It could be that my room is a rare acoustic anomaly and I just don't know any different.  The room is probably 14 x 18.  The ceiling is  'tongue and groove cathedral ceiling with exposed pine beams'.  The peak of the ceiling is at about 12 feet so there is a lot of extra space above the beams.       The front and back walls are drywall with 3 feet of pine wainscoating.  The left side wall is a huge cultured stone fireplace  that takes up about 90% of that side with the other 10% on either side opening to a dining room with the same type ceiling  ( the stones create a very uneven surface which seems like it would be good from an acoustic standpoint).  The right side wall is made up of windows but I try to keep them covered with wooden shades when I am listening/watching.  The floor is pine with an average size rug in the middle of the room.   As far as my listening preferences these days I want to feel like there is a band playing acoustically in the room with me.  I like to hear David Gilmours fingers sliding up and down the stings on 'Wish You Were Here'.    Cowboy Junkies-Trinity Sessions sounds fantastic on my system.  My mosh pit days are pretty much behind me but I do like to crank Rage Against the Machine once in a while.  i think the sub will be good for this.